David Martin
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Bob, Just sharpen different steels on the SiC & Inida stones ( like S30V). Giving it a legitimate try and see what results you get. Your welcome, DM
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dmt sharpening stones
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Jason B.
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I have the diamonds and the norton stones, diamond hones are far superior with high vanadium steels. Regardless of speculation when the vanadium increases it increases the volume of carbides which quickly makes all but diamond and CBN obsolete. You will get other abrasives to scratch the steel but it is the incorrect use of abrasives for the cutting task.
This guy explains it best.
[video=youtube;sdxf32F3j3k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=sdxf32F3j3k[/video]
This guy explains it best.
[video=youtube;sdxf32F3j3k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=sdxf32F3j3k[/video]
Does a guy need both stones, a SiC and an India from Norton? If not, which one is better and more versatile?
Thx.
David Martin
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Mike, That's a hard one. I have both and use them at different times. IF most of your blades contain some vanadium and you like them. Then get the SiC. It wears quicker, dishes like a waterstone. Still, you can level your stone back to flatness. I've had to do mine a few times in the last 10 yrs.. Plus, it enjoys eating S30V. My India stone is much more resistant to dishing and I've needed to level it once in 30 yrs.. The India because of it's grit structure works different/ a little slower. Still, it gives a finer edge and can do this with most steels. These stones in their combination grit form only run 19$ or less for a 2X8" and will last 2-3 lifetimes. So, not a major purchase. Giving the diamond it's due. It's a performer. Still, a Ford or Chevy will get you to the grocery store as well as a Caddy. With better economy. DM
That is a set I considered too but not sure if they would do any better than my dmt aligner set that also has the diamond stones.
@DM - I understand and I want something that will work now and later down the road as other steels come out. Trust me when I say, I dont like to waste money either and also dont want a collection of stones or other sharpening gear just sitting in a drawer or box somewhere. I do think i need some kind of aligner so I can get the angles down with some consistancy as I dont get a lot of dull blades to practice on. I have no problem using the aligner with diamond bench stones or other stones!
It sure gets frustrating when it comes to "what do I need" vs "what do I want" questions!
Thx. for the info.
Ankerson
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SIC is still the best option overall and it will work with ANY steel and work well as long as quality stones are used.
The problem with diamonds is the stones in general and once people put some real pressure on them sharpening etc they can scrape the diamonds right off the stone in time. In contrast with SIC a person can use as much pressure that is needed and not worry about it.
The steels are already here and have been in the industry for a long time already and SIC will cut any of them just fine.
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Ankerson
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There is a HUGE difference in what this guy is talking about and basic sharpening that people will do.
In manufacturing CBN is the best in the grinding wheels, but they are expensive, more expensive than the typical benchstone would be and they are made differently also to take the added pressure.
A lot of knife makers are using ceramic belts for the high V steels because they last longer than the AO and SIC belts before they stop cutting.
But that's still using machines to grind blades out etc and not sharpening by hand.
So things have to be put into perspective here about what is being done and how, machines or by hand, grinding steel in general by machines or putting an edge on a knife by hand.
In the end people are spending a lot of money on diamond stones when they really aren't needed because SIC will cut just as fast or faster when working by hand and the stones will last longer also. They work faster because more pressure can be used than with diamonds in general, that's using quality stones and not the typical garbage some would buy at the local Wal-Mart that has a lot of fillers in them so they wear out really fast and don't cut.
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I love dmt diamond sharpeners, using just coarse with light touch, and then strop on my palm few times.The edge I get this way is very toothy, cuts like crazy and it still whittles hair.Not for push cutting but is slicing monster.
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SiC or AlOx still won't cut as well at the finer & polishing grits (<10µ), where the carbides themselves become a bigger part of the picture, relative to abrasive particle size. At larger grinding grits, such as found with the Norton SiC or AlOx stones, and as was pointed out the reference video posted, the larger abrasive grit will simply 'scoop out' carbides from the softer matrix, as opposed to actually doing much grinding on them directly. If finishing edges at that relatively coarse level, it shouldn't matter much in finished sharpness (though diamond will still be faster). The difference in speed and finished sharpness becomes more obvious when using smaller hones, such as when comparing pocket hones of SiC/AlOx versus diamond; the 'Fine' diamond works faster than even coarser SiC or AlOx stones, and with light & comfortable pressure on any steel; I've never been able to say that about SiC or AlOx. Didn't take long for me to figure that out, as many of my own original habits were built around using smaller hones. The difference in pressure required, and number of strokes, is night & day, and the edges always end up much crisper. At smaller grits, the greater effect of using SiC is in a gradual rounding off or burnishing of the apex, as the abrasive just doesn't handle the carbides as well. That's the finite 'wall' against which the edge just won't get much sharper, on something like S30V.
The point of not being able to use as much pressure on a diamond hone is essentially moot, to me, as it isn't even necessary to get the best results from a diamond hone, and will be counter-productive anyway.
And when polishing a steel like S30V at mirror levels, that's when the cutting efficiency of diamonds becomes (literally) glaringly obvious, if comparing something like 3µ or finer diamond compound to AlOx or SiC in similarly-fine grits.
David
The point of not being able to use as much pressure on a diamond hone is essentially moot, to me, as it isn't even necessary to get the best results from a diamond hone, and will be counter-productive anyway.
And when polishing a steel like S30V at mirror levels, that's when the cutting efficiency of diamonds becomes (literally) glaringly obvious, if comparing something like 3µ or finer diamond compound to AlOx or SiC in similarly-fine grits.
David
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So if one was going to get a set of DMT diamond ones, would it be better to get the continuous or the interupted pattern for sharpening EDC blades? My folders are the PM2 cts-204p, Manix 2 XL s90v, Manix 2 s110v, Endura, Delica and Salt 1 and I have two fixed blades about 4 inches too. I have no problem spending money on a set that is MORE than I need right now cause things change, like my pocket carry and steels. I just dont want the bare minimum and then wish I got something else!
Two sets I am looking at are. (Free ship over $99)
6x2 diasharp, continuous set (xc, c, f and xf), double sided, in boxfor $78.
8x2 1/2 duosharp plus, interupted set w/1 inch continuous part (xc, c, f and xf) with the base for $139.
Comments welcome!! Thx.
P.S. I use the DMT Aligner and a Sharpmaker and have no problem except it isnt free hand! I will probably use the Aligner with the stones til I get some practice in.
Two sets I am looking at are. (Free ship over $99)
6x2 diasharp, continuous set (xc, c, f and xf), double sided, in boxfor $78.
8x2 1/2 duosharp plus, interupted set w/1 inch continuous part (xc, c, f and xf) with the base for $139.
Comments welcome!! Thx.
P.S. I use the DMT Aligner and a Sharpmaker and have no problem except it isnt free hand! I will probably use the Aligner with the stones til I get some practice in.
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David Martin
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Both of those are good. With the duosharp you actually get half the diamond grit as the other half is taken up with the holes. So, I think the diasharp works faster. DM
There's been discussion here about the interrupted versus continuous (DuoSharp versus Diasharp). DMT *claims* that the interrupted cuts faster than the continuous. Most of us have a hard time believing that, though it might be true. I don't know of any tests that prove or disprove it.
I do know that there are a lot of satisfied customers of both products. Richard Blaine on youtube (mister easy cooking) swears by the DuoSharps and has several videos of him using them. His are many years old (more than 10) and seemingly work just fine still.
Personally, I'm hung up on two things about the DuoSharp Plus:
1. I really, really like a large stone. 8" x 3" seems to be perfect; there's probably a reason why almost every waterstone is that size. The DuoSharp is just a little smaller at 2 5/8" wide. The DiaSharps are a full 8 x 3".
2. I don't know if I could effectively use a stone that has two different surfaces on the same side. That continuous portion might make it difficult to make a consistent stroke. Or I could avoid using that part, but then the stone is effectively shorter! Until I use one and see for myself, it's a deal killer for *me*.
Finally, as I've mentioned many times here, the DMT XXC stone is amazing and I wouldn't want my kit to be without it. It's only available in DiaSharp. I've been told by many knowledgeable people that the Atoma 140 grit diamond plate is even better. If I had it to do again, I'd probably buy the Atoma 140, DMT C, DMT F, and DMT EF. You don't need the DMT F in between the C and EF in my opinion. I'd only be buying it so I could finish at the DMT F level, as I've heard that level of toothy is very useful for some tasks.
Brian.
I do know that there are a lot of satisfied customers of both products. Richard Blaine on youtube (mister easy cooking) swears by the DuoSharps and has several videos of him using them. His are many years old (more than 10) and seemingly work just fine still.
Personally, I'm hung up on two things about the DuoSharp Plus:
1. I really, really like a large stone. 8" x 3" seems to be perfect; there's probably a reason why almost every waterstone is that size. The DuoSharp is just a little smaller at 2 5/8" wide. The DiaSharps are a full 8 x 3".
2. I don't know if I could effectively use a stone that has two different surfaces on the same side. That continuous portion might make it difficult to make a consistent stroke. Or I could avoid using that part, but then the stone is effectively shorter! Until I use one and see for myself, it's a deal killer for *me*.
Finally, as I've mentioned many times here, the DMT XXC stone is amazing and I wouldn't want my kit to be without it. It's only available in DiaSharp. I've been told by many knowledgeable people that the Atoma 140 grit diamond plate is even better. If I had it to do again, I'd probably buy the Atoma 140, DMT C, DMT F, and DMT EF. You don't need the DMT F in between the C and EF in my opinion. I'd only be buying it so I could finish at the DMT F level, as I've heard that level of toothy is very useful for some tasks.
Brian.
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Jason B.
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I love my DMT stones, I have had mine for several years now and have used them a few thousand times. I very recently purchased a Atoma 140 to replace my much worn DMT XXC plate. The Atoma is a monster of a grinding plate and sounds like a heavy duty zipper being moved when sharpening due to the diamond arrangement. They are a more advanced Damond plate than the DMT stones but I don't know how they compare to the other grits. I do know the Atoma 140 will continue to be my choice over the DMT XXC though.
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So if one was going to get a set of DMT diamond ones, would it be better to get the continuous or the interupted pattern for sharpening EDC blades? My folders are the PM2 cts-204p, Manix 2 XL s90v, Manix 2 s110v, Endura, Delica and Salt 1 and I have two fixed blades about 4 inches too. I have no problem spending money on a set that is MORE than I need right now cause things change, like my pocket carry and steels. I just dont want the bare minimum and then wish I got something else!
Two sets I am looking at are. (Free ship over $99)
6x2 diasharp, continuous set (xc, c, f and xf), double sided, in boxfor $78.
8x2 1/2 duosharp plus, interupted set w/1 inch continuous part (xc, c, f and xf) with the base for $139.
Comments welcome!! Thx.
P.S. I use the DMT Aligner and a Sharpmaker and have no problem except it isnt free hand! I will probably use the Aligner with the stones til I get some practice in.
I have both an 8" Duo-Sharp in C/F (mine's an older version without the continuous-surface 'pad'), and also the 6" x 2" double-sided Dia-Sharp hones in XC/C & F/EF. I LOVE all of them. The Duo-Sharp works pleasantly fast, though I don't know if it's any faster than the continuous hones (BTW, I also use DMT 'credit cards' in Fine & EF, and even they're impressively fast, at their small size). I honestly don't think one can go wrong in selecting any one of these hones.
If you go with the Duo-Sharp, I'd also recommend getting the elevated base/holder for it. Really makes using that hone easy and comfortable. You might be able to find that combo as a set; but if not, I'd get it anyway.
David
David Martin
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My experience differs from yours on sharpening S30V and S60V on SiC and India stones. I have diamond stones and use them more conservatively as they cost 2X the price of a SiC or India stone and I don't see I'm getting 2X the benefit in edge or speed. The duo is a salesman's delight. Giving the customer half the cutting surface for their money. But it's light and transportable. DM
That set comes with the base. They also have a set of the 8x3 diasharps (continuous) set with that universal base and all four grits for $199.
I love the DMT Aligner as a fool proof method
I also use the Stone holders hand held without the guide
And free hand that way
But it is not like stones on a surface
Gotta say, I agree with David here. I'm often a bit proponent of DMT stones, probably because I like to get things done quickly these days, with kids and all, I'm pretty busy. But the Nortons will work just fine, and while slightly slower, not horribly so.
Every once and a while, I'll go out in my garage, get out the Nortons and some kerosene, and enjoy the sharpening. It brings back memories - thanks Ed!