Do Tanto style blades really affect performance?

[philwar]

This is a photoshopped version of the Cold Steel Recon 1 Tanto. It's unlikely they'll ever make it (unfortunately) but as you can see it would have plenty of belly for most cutting tasks, and retain its superior tip strength.
It can be a practical knife, but it's true the Americanized tanto is less than ideal for most common chores.

 

[marcinek]

Hahaha! Agreed I just wanted the OP to know that he can take a tanto into the woods if he wants, and the knife will still function. May not be the perfect shape for bushcraft, but it'll still get the job done.

And I agree with you! Ultimately, if someone has a tanto in the woods and it works for them and they are happy....great! More power to them. I'm sure it will function.

But as a bunch of OCD knife maniacs...I think we go way beyond that level of just "Well...it will cut things."

Again..that's why wre are here yabbing away endlessly about the subject!

 

[Ankerson]

A traditional Tanto would be more of an all around blade shape, more of a modified trailing point really.

The American style Tanto is more limited, but does add a lot of strength to the tip for heavy use.

 

[Luis G.]

Fine. You win. The original tanto was "knife size" (and the sword sized one with the same profile was called something else).

But that's not the point. Was the original tanto an outdoors utility knife or was it for hurting people with?

I will get into it, since it is a topic point.
Utilitarian or Weapon?
Both. It first started as a SOL weapon, but soon transitioned into a utilitarian tool/ornament.
Typically speaking in those times they would have likely served more of a utilitarian tool then as a weapon. Samurai were allowed to were katana (full sized swords, 24"~), wakizashi (short swords under 21"~), and tanto (dagger, typically 10"~).
Usually they would at bare minimum carry a daisho (pair of edges) consisting of a pair of katana, wakizashi, or tanto. (rare to see two katana or even rarer two tanto as daisho). The bare minimum would be a wakizashi/tanto. So to say a tanto was carried as a weapon would not be entirely accurate as the tanto would seldom be relied on for combat as the bare minimum a wakizashi or katana would be present and serve a better role for a weapon. It would however serve as an excellent tool for day to day activities and was used as such many times. For example there's a couple japanese folk tale that mention the tanto being used to split wood by battoning.

The very few times you could not wear more then a tanto (the tanto to signify your position as a samurai or whatnot) was when the shogun, or emperor called you in and asked your weapons removed. Even then sometimes tanto's werent allowed and you were likely surrounded by Yaris or Katana wielding guards, in which case a tanto would serve of little use as a weapon.

 

[brets-ftw]

I will get into it, since it is a topic point.
Utilitarian or Weapon?
Both. It first started as a SOL weapon, but soon transitioned into a utilitarian tool/ornament.
Typically speaking in those times they would have likely served more of a utilitarian tool then as a weapon. Samurai were allowed to were katana (full sized swords, 24"~), wakizashi (short swords under 21"~), and tanto (dagger, typically 10"~).
Usually they would at bare minimum carry a daisho (pair of edges) consisting of a pair of katana, wakizashi, or tanto. (rare to see two katana or even rarer two tanto as daisho). The bare minimum would be a wakizashi/tanto. So to say a tanto was carried as a weapon would not be entirely accurate as the tanto would seldom be relied on for combat as the bare minimum a wakizashi or katana would be present and serve a better role for a weapon. It would however serve as an excellent tool for day to day activities and was used as such many times. For example there's a couple japanese folk tale that mention the tanto being used to split wood by battoning.

The very few times you could not wear more then a tanto (the tanto to signify your position as a samurai or whatnot) was when the shogun, or emperor called you in and asked your weapons removed. Even then sometimes tanto's werent allowed and you were likely surrounded by Yaris or Katana wielding guards, in which case a tanto would serve of little use as a weapon.

Just want to point out a few things

1. the Emperor and the Shogun were two different people and offices.The Emperor controlled all things religious and common place as was similar to the chinese during the Heian period. The Shogun was more of the head general and military controller. But your point still stands that your weapons could be removed during an audience with either of these two.

2. The katanas werent nearly that short unless the schools taught their students in such a manor, the most common length ive seen and dealt with was 34"

Id also like to throw in a question, though i dont want to thread steel (pun intended) about american tantos. Would a chopper/machete with a Top heavy design (as in the secondary point sticks out farther then the guard) work better or would one think the secondary tip would become to fragile during chopping/hard use?

 

[stabman]

There's nothing wrong with tantos, and they are not "mall ninja fetishes" as some otherwise sensible people think.
I've used my Master Tanto to chop wood, trim branches off of trees, batonning, cutting leather, and slicing up bacon for dinner.
You know, the sorts of things that knives are meant to do.

I've never been attacked by a car door, so I never stabbed it through one.

 

[Boberama]

I've been reading a lot about how Tanto blades are only for fighting and stabbing, oppose to a drop point which is made for utilitarian uses. I wonder... Is there really that much of a difference between the two styles when it comes to using a blade out in the woods? And i'm sure that it ever becomes a need to use a blade in a SD situation either one will suffice.....unless a bear attacks you, then you're SOL! Tell me what your opinion is.

I only have one tanto design.

I have noticed the subtip is VERY annoying when cutting things like boxes and packages.

When the cutting edge transitions from the straight edge to the slanted portion it seems to "slip".

The subtip just seems to get in the way all the time.

It sure looks cool, though.

 

[CWL]

Fine. You win. The original tanto was "knife size" (and the sword sized one with the same profile was called something else).

But that's not the point. Was the original tanto an outdoors utility knife or was it for hurting people with?

I believe that the original Japanese tanto was probably more of a field knife and any use of them on a battlefield was for after the battle to remove dead warrior's heads.

It was knifemaker Bob Lum that probably introduced the "Americanized" tanto shape before Lynn T. at Cold Steel stole the design and marketed the hell out of it with his fables of piercing armor in battle with them.

But to give credit where deserved, Lynn T. is most responsible for making the Americanized tanto popular worldwide. I also hear that he's working on a revolutionary Tanto-Sanmai-Smatchet!

 

[Luis G.]

Just want to point out a few things

1. the Emperor and the Shogun were two different people and offices.The Emperor controlled all things religious and common place as was similar to the chinese during the Heian period. The Shogun was more of the head general and military controller. But your point still stands that your weapons could be removed during an audience with either of these two.

2. The katanas werent nearly that short unless the schools taught their students in such a manor, the most common length ive seen and dealt with was 34"

Id also like to throw in a question, though i dont want to thread steel (pun intended) about american tantos. Would a chopper/machete with a Top heavy design (as in the secondary point sticks out farther then the guard) work better or would one think the secondary tip would become to fragile during chopping/hard use?

1. Emperor was known as divinity, to be from god himself. The shogun was the military, often dictator, power. Correct.

2. This is not known to me in any JSA I have researched, including long time students and 2 sensei I have spoken with. Depending what race, for example the average Japanese height is 5' 4", which would mean a katana of around 26" would be recommended by sensei. In ancient times it may have been closer to 28"~. Closer to 6 feet, you are talking about 29". It depends on the size of the individual, or the swordsmanship but rarely do you see anything over 30", let alone 34" thats nodachi territory, and we all know how impractical they are.
The average size if I recall correctly, today in events like Tai Kai is 29"~.

The only schools I can think of that would use 34" would be for almost for an nodachi (starting at 35"~), which were large swords for taking down cavalry or castle siege defense. There's maybe 1-2 old schools (kage-ryu is one) left not sure. Not very efficient or practical as a nagamaki would serve better for the purpose of the nodachi.
It takes a lot of skill to wield longer swords, this is why the typical size for katana is 26" 29" depending on height/body, I find it a bit difficult to wield a odachi, or cut tatami omote with it. I prefer katana, or tanto. Reaching correct hasuji (angle) becomes difficult with the longer the blade is.

 

[A.P.F.]

Agreed. As people who are into knives, we should really focus on "reading" the intent of the knife designer.. and that goes beyond blade geometry, to include steels, grinds, edge geometry, grip, and every single detail that goes on the knife.

To me, a mark of a good knife is one in which all of the tiny features all point to the same functional purpose, then it is a well-designed and well thought out knife. It is fascinating to see many renowned companies churn out knives that have features that contradict each other

A very eloquent summation of my own buying philosophy and beliefs, res1cue. To me, each knife is a functional work of art that forms a sort of harmony of design and function.

 

[stabman]

To me, each knife is a functional work of art that forms a sort of harmony of design and function.

Except for Mantis knives.

 

[harkamus]

Might not be the ideal skinner shape, but traditional style tantos definitely have a lot of utility.

My own design that I had Pohan Leu make for me:

 

[Zombie Zeke]

It's funny to read the biases against a Tanto for real work...it really goes to show ignorance based on nothing but what people "have read" about a knife design.

In usage, the Tanto is a great skinner as the chisel type edge does really well for getting fat off the skin, stabbing of course is awesome and even when chopping a heavier tanto style knife gives up nothing to a different blade shape of equal weight.

The point of a knife is basically useless when chopping...

 

[res1cue]

A very eloquent summation of my own buying philosophy and beliefs, res1cue. To me, each knife is a functional work of art that forms a sort of harmony of design and function.

I'm flattered

One other thing about the tanto, most people are caught up about blade shape, but there is another aspect to it: when the americanized tanto first started being popularized (and before wild variants started popping up), one of it's signature attributes is the fact it really has two edges with two different grinds. Keeping the thickness most of the way to the tip with no taper, and then slapping on a flat grind, the tip becomes very reinforced (it is not the angular blade shape that gives it strength.. it is the tip's grind.. a drop point can be plenty thick and strong and many tantos nowadays are extremely thin)

The main cutting edge would feature a hollow grind that gave it very thin edge geometry. A tanto designed like this would allow someone to abuse the crap out of the tip while leaving the edge relatively unscathed.

Not something I typically look for, but interesting to take a note of.

Again going back to the whole "harmony of features thing", the tantos I do own and like (i.e. CS master tanto) capitalizes on this aspect. I get pretty annoyed at knives that have a general tanto blade shape (sacrificing point control and some utility factors) while using really thin steel stock (sacrificing strength).. in the end, you get the worst of both worlds

cough cough.. benchmade warn

 

[A.P.F.]

Except for Mantis knives.

Heh...Mantis is where insanity meets redundancy.

 

[Ankerson]

I believe that the original Japanese tanto was probably more of a field knife and any use of them on a battlefield was for after the battle to remove dead warrior's heads.

It was knifemaker Bob Lum that probably introduced the "Americanized" tanto shape before Lynn T. at Cold Steel stole the design and marketed the hell out of it with his fables of piercing armor in battle with them.

But to give credit where deserved, Lynn T. is most responsible for making the Americanized tanto popular worldwide. I also hear that he's working on a revolutionary Tanto-Sanmai-Smatchet!

And Bob Lum copied the design that has been used for around 1000+ years.

I will say this again....

There aren't and haven't been any really new designs in blade shapes for Centuries, everything we see and use today has been copied off another design of long ago.

 

[brets-ftw]

1. Emperor was known as divinity, to be from god himself. The shogun was the military, often dictator, power. Correct.

2. This is not known to me in any JSA I have researched, including long time students and 2 sensei I have spoken with. Depending what race, for example the average Japanese height is 5' 4", which would mean a katana of around 26" would be recommended by sensei. In ancient times it may have been closer to 28"~. Closer to 6 feet, you are talking about 29". It depends on the size of the individual, or the swordsmanship but rarely do you see anything over 30", let alone 34" thats nodachi territory, and we all know how impractical they are.
The average size if I recall correctly, today in events like Tai Kai is 29"~.

The only schools I can think of that would use 34" would be for almost for an nodachi (starting at 35"~), which were large swords for taking down cavalry or castle siege defense. There's maybe 1-2 old schools (kage-ryu is one) left not sure. Not very efficient or practical as a nagamaki would serve better for the purpose of the nodachi.
It takes a lot of skill to wield longer swords, this is why the typical size for katana is 26" 29" depending on height/body, I find it a bit difficult to wield a odachi, or cut tatami omote with it. I prefer katana, or tanto. Reaching correct hasuji (angle) becomes difficult with the longer the blade is.

Hmm interesting point, most of the studying I've done has been around the Hokkaido Area so its heavily influenced by the Ainu people, who are larger in stature then the typical Japanese person. thus my conclusion about the katanas as their range was at 34" goes to show you what assumption do

 

[harkamus]

Uh, Bob Lum introduced the hamaguri style tanto tip to the US, not the Americanized triangle wedge shaped tip. Please, don't dishonor the dead man by saying Lum introduced the American tanto. He maybe had a hand in introducing the tanto to the US, but it was of Japanese apple seed grind variety.

IF you want to argue "semantics," Ankerson is right. Even the American style tanto isn't truly American style. Maybe by random chance an American designed a triangle tip shaped tanto, but there is a similar design that has origins in Japan. Kiriha zukuri were blades without curvature, pre 9th century Japan. If you want to go a step further, the triangle tip is called kamasu kissaki. (So you could have had a kiriha zukuri with a kamasu kissaki). If you want even more food for thought, the Japanese even had chisel grinds called kata kiriha.

 

[CWL]

I used "introduced" for a reason.

I would have used "invented" or "created" if that was what I meant.

Notice I also used the word "probably"?

 

[harkamus]

There is no probably. Bob Lum never made any of what we call the American style tanto. To say even probably is sacrilege.

All his tantos have sweeping curves from the primary grind to the tip, which is called kissaki. If memory serves me right, the hamaguri tip is basically a convex grind on the tip.

He did make a few flat grinds with no yokote and no separate tip geometry.