Do We Really Need This?

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Sep 24, 2000
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At New York's Custom knife show last weekend there was one individual who makes a line of "belt buckle" knives and belts to go with them. This year - for the first time, as far as I recall - he added some sort of a nonmetallic blade to his line.

As I picked one up to look at, he informed me that it was "invisible to x-rays and metal detectors" and "could be carried on an airplane." When I suggested that new FAA regs clearly state that "no knife of any material" could be carried on a plane, I was rewarded with a long harangue that ranged from his opinion of the FAA ("......those are regulations, not laws!"......!!) to the "fact" that he was selling "letter openers" not knives, and on to something about Hitler killing Jews and how we can't let that happen here.

Clearly, this gentleman is entitled to his opinions. There were however, two things that bothered me about him being at the show. First was his "sales pitch" about how his blades weren't really knives and therefore not covered by FAA regulations - which, remember weren't really laws, so you could really carry a knife on a plane anyway! When I again reminded him of signs to the contrary now posted at every US airport that forbade carrying knives made of "any material" on to planes, his answer was: "Well, that's your opinion."

Did people believe him and walk away from his table thinking his blades were "legal" to carry on planes? I hope not, but think so.

It is not pleasant to consider the fate of anyone caught with one of these at a security checkpoint: You might explain that you had forgotten about the SAK on your key chain, but what would be your excuse for having a blade made of a material designed to defeat x-ray and metal detectors? And to compound the matter, how do you explain that you are carrying it in way intentionally designed to disguise it?

Secondly and even more disturbing is the whole idea of selling blades specifically designed to defeat security procedures.

Certainly there is a place for nonmetallic blades, but the only legitimate one I can think of is a work situation where the danger of sparks creating a fire or explosion might call for this specialized sort of knife. But lets deal with the real world: is it at all plausible to think that someone who's work requires having this sort of blade would also need to disguise it as a belt buckle?

There used to be a few dealers carrying plastic knives sold under names like "CIA Letter Openers" or some such nonsense. Responsible dealers have discontinued selling them post 9-11. And they now are illegal in many localities. And before the hackles rise, lets not confuse the situation by raising some Second Amendment issue: there is no right or legitimate reason for most of us to own a knife specifically designed to be smuggled past security checkpoints any more then there is to own a silencer for a handgun.

Anyway, I am curious if anyone else shares my concern: As responsible collectors and users of blades, don't we have a responsibility to at least keep this sort of stuff out of our shows?
 
Some people feel that the purpose of weapons possession by individuals is to secure each individual's security. Some believe that there is a necessity to have the capacity to protect oneself even from the government, which means not owning only those weapons that your city/country/state/country condones and can easily take away. There are a host of problems with that position - can individuals manufacture anthrax labs, etc. - but the issue remains.
 
Your points are well taken. Anyone trying to circumvent FAA regs in such a boldfaceed manner will be spending a great deal of time with some very serious FBI agents.
 
I'm really trying hard to refrain from political statements at this forum as history has shown me that many do not share my opinions and ideologies and it makes for some unpleasant threads.

However, as far as as his, "regulations are not laws". That's a silly semantic argument. Who makes and enforces the FAA regulations? Federal Government agencies. Also, by boarding the plane you are agreeing to all conditions as outlined by the FAA regulations and the airline. It's a contract.

Perhaps you might ask him to test his belt buckle first for you by having him go through airport security. You can wave to him as he's being dragged off and detained by airport security.
 
Well, one thing i will say is i dont buy the argument that preventing law abiding citizens from having a knife on board a plane will make the plane safer, to the contrary, it seems to me, it just makes the hijacker's job that much easier to be up against unarmed passengers. In fact, i can think of no safer plane than one in which several, if not all of the passengers are armed with knives and ready to resist a hijacking. A hijacker will find a way to be armed on the plane, what purpose does it serve to disarm the other passengers and make it more difficult to resist a hijacking? I have never believed that more guns/knives equals more crime. Guns and knives are tools, theyre neutral, what makes them evil or good, is the intention of the person using it.

That said, im too chicken to try to sneak one of those "letter openers" onto a plane, but id be lying if i didnt admit that id feel better with one in my pocket, and again, i really think that we SHOULD be able to legally have a knife on board a plane, 9/11 notwithstanding. I can understand the rationale for prohibiting guns, since where there are lots of guns, there is the potential to have an accidental discharge and should that happen on a plane, who knows what could happen, i suppose the plane could even crash under certain circumstances, but clearly, there is no such danger from passnegers possessing knives.
 
I don't need no damn little plastic belt-buckle "knife" to defend myself from a goof-ball hijacker...I'll rip-off one of the arm-rests (or the whole damn seat) and beat the hijacker closest to me to death with it.
 
Originally posted by david
Do We Really Need This?

Since you chose to post this on multiple forums, I'll reply in kind. Yes, we do need this. No government can legislate away an individual's right to self defense.

BTW, he has been offering Ti pieces -- both belt buckle & NKs -- for years.
 
It's a difficult issue, but if you start asking whether or not we "need" certain knives, then you've started us down a very slippery slope.

For example, most daggers are designed for one thing: to kill or injure living beings (usually humans). The dagger is an old design, but it's not very useful for utility purposes. In fact, it might be as inefficient as a plastic belt buckle knife for many tasks!

It could therefore be argued that there is no "legitimate reason" to own, make, or sell a dagger. Unfortunately though, many knife collectors enjoy daggers.

Daggers are also sold at stores and shows, yet (like plastic belt buckle knives) they are illegal to carry in many places. If a guy advertises a particular knife as being legal when it's actually illegal, then he's at best an idiot and at worst a charlatan. Ultimately though, the knife buyer is the one who is responsible for learning and obeying any relevant laws.

Something else to consider when looking at nonmetallic knives is that the technology to make such blades is in its infancy. I can envision a future several decades from now where nonmetallic blades rival metallic ones for performance and cost. Ceramic blades are already somewhat popular. It would be a shame to discourage such technology before we know what it's capable of.

Terrorism is a scary and real threat. It would still be prudent though to take a hard look at measures that may protect us, but hamper our freedom, before we institute them.
 
We do not need to restrict the individual right to keep and bear arms in order to fight terrorism. What we need to do is hunt down and kill any terrorist or terrorist trainer, supporter, or financer that threatens us. One Saudi royal or Wahabbist cleric handging from a tree will do more to stop terrorism than keeping 1,000 people from carrying knives. Knife owners are not the enemy.
 
Sorry, I would probably buy one, And if I was wearing it the day I was taking a flight, Well I wouldn't put to much consideration into boarding with it. I understand the need for these regulations and as far as that goes you would be correct in calling me a hypocrite. But oh well, that's me. :)
 
First off, I have to say that I think the right to defend yourself is a basic law of nature. It goes beyond rights, rules and regulations. The goverment can make all the regulations they want, and hire all the police, military etc. they want, and they still can't protect you all the time. So nobody's ability to defend themself should be inhibited. I also think there is a line that can be crossed and this is an issue that requires a lot of common sense(which is exactly why there is such a problem with it these days). Carrying a pack of claymores around obviously is a little over the top.
As far as knives, I think you should be able to carry whatever the hell you want to. But I also think its wrong for the guy to be telling people that his product is legal to take on a plane. I'm not saying it shouldn't be legal, its just that its not, and shouldn't be advertised that way. You can't even get a friggin nail file on a plane anymore.
 
I have no problem with the guy making and selling his wares.

Keep in mind. . .BG's aren't dumb ! They will use a dog tuurd to inflict pain and suffering if they are able, capable and can get away with it ! That's the way they are !

The seller/maker that you're talking about isn't promoting or offering something new ! (OK. . .maybe something new to you)

Uncle Sugar needs to enlist folks, like this maker, who can assist us in our cause !

Our cause. . . you ask ? Freedom and kickin' BG a$$ ! :)

edit: to add "tuurd"
 
It is not pleasant to consider the fate of anyone caught with one of these at a security checkpoint: You might explain that you had forgotten about the SAK on your key chain, but what would be your excuse for having a blade made of a material designed to defeat x-ray and metal detectors? And to compound the matter, how do you explain that you are carrying it in way intentionally designed to disguise it?


Exactly. Intent is very important. And a knife (and it is) that is made of a material deliberately intended to evade metal detectors and which is deliberately disguised is a very serious matter.
 
No government can legislate away an individual's right to self defense.

On what is that premise based? The 2nd Amendment legislates the right TO bear arms. What part of our law or regulations states that the government cannot legislate??? The government seems to feel almost no bounds when legislating.

I assume Brian C. is speaking in terms of moral law, in which case I would argue that the government can legislate away the individual right, however, such legislation is not moral.

Governments have been legislating away rights for years, with very bad results!! Let's elect the right folks and do away with bad legislation.
 
Sorry TheBadGuy !

I mean't normal Bad Guys !

Course. . .keepin' in mind. . .that you're. . .THE Bad Guy ! :p
 
:D I know that me saying I would carry it onboard is might be unpopular, but geez, no need to want to kick my a$$ :D
 
If the bad guys (not you, TheBadGuy :)) start using dog turds as weapons, pretty soon there's going to be a ban on concealed carry of dog turds. We will be outlaws my brothers, hiding our dog turds at home, thinking of ways to get around the despotic Federal Dog Turd Act. :(
 
"Do we need plastic knives?"

Except for special job needs, i dont think we need plastic knives, but I do agree, that if you start taking things away, where does it end.

"Do we need people lying and telling people its ok to break the law?"
Nope, it just makes the knife/edged community look like a bunch of crazy law breakers, and what more do you need to get targeted by anti weapon people. Its also bad business to basically lie to get sales.

One problem with what some people have said here is that no one knows who the bad guys are. Arming an entire plane just means the bad guy is also armed.

Taking a knife on a plane is stupid. There are many different legal items that you can take on a plane that could be used more effectivly than a small knife to subdue an attacker.
 
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