Do you consider Bark River knives handmade?

When I hear the term “handmade”, I think made by a person or people, not a machine. I wouldn’t really quibble about the blanks being cut or jetted by machines (everything’s got to start somewhere, and almost everyone does it - even makers firmly considered to produce “handmade” products).

Once it is that state (blank, scales, hardware), if it is taken from there to a finished knife by human hands instead of machinery, I would consider it a “handmade” knife.

I have no idea if Bark River does this or not.
 
Taking BRKT out of the question for a sec, "handmade" is a little bit like GMO-free. It can be true, but also not useful as a descriptor. Take Victorinox as an example. The blades, tools and liners are stamped, tumbled and cleaned by machine. The scales are molded, by machine, and the rest of the components are made by various cutting jigs, mostly pretty automated. But they are assembled by hand.

Len Thompson fishing lures are hand painted. In the past they just said that, now they are more transparent and say that some are stenciled, while some are free-hand airbrushed. Are they still hand painted? A human still sets up the stencil and holds the sprayer.

I think the bigger factor should be asking of the makers, what parts are hand made? For me, I don't actually care in most cases, but I do want the honesty. So lets say I start a company tomorrow where I get my blanks cut by a local business with a CNC plas or waterjet and use jigs for my grinding, maybe even build myself a self-operating grinder system. I send out my blades for heat treat and ceracote, get leather made for me by an OEM and all I actually do "by hand" is fit the scales (which are CNC cut). Now, I could call them a handmade knife, and probably get away with it, and even call myself the knife maker. Or, I could be transparent, tell everyone who's work I'm using, and who's reputation I'm relying on for my product, and maybe call them "small batch production" or "sourced production". If the customer gets options maybe I could call them "made to order" rather than custom, since they are going to be 90% already done. I'm not doing anything different then than dozens of other small makers, but I am being more honest and transparent.

So with that said, should we call BRKT handmade? No, I don't think handmade means anything, and really never has. Almost any other descriptor would give a better idea to the customer of what they are getting. Rather than getting up BRKT's rump about it though, I think we as knife fans need to start asking makers to be more transparent about their methods, and stop allowing "handmade" to mean anything. That way if you want a hammer forged knife, or a free-hand ground knife, or just an option of handle scales, then you can get what you want, and have expectations that are reasonable within that. There is plenty for makers to make their claims on like heat treat, grind, design, overall fit and finish, warranty, or whatever else it is that differentiates them in the market. I think we as knife buyers have the power to stop buying marketing.

As for other terms, If I can buy it off a shelf, its production, even if you make one at a time. If its made to order, its a custom. If the maker doesn't allow me the choices I want, then I don't have to spend my money.
 
Do you consider Bark River knives handmade?

They are production knives built in batches by using machinery, craftmanship and outsourced waterjet & heat-treatment.
The manufacturing involves a lot of handmade stages to achieve the final product.
If they can get machines to speed up the production they do that, but it still takes a lot of manmade labour to build their knives.

BRK Scandi GlowInTheDark Pinecone. Sheath by me.
IMGP6074 - kopia.JPG


Regards
Mikael
 
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Handmade starts here.

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Ends here

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BladeScout said:
IIRC the OP requested, that forum members refrain from dissing BRK and MS. I assume, that goes for the opposite as well;)


Now that you bring it up, I dont. Many bland/generic designs, several unimaginative models copied from other designs (the latter which IMO looks better), often knives have blurry grind lines. Then there were the knives in a different steel, than they were marketed as.
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I don't have a dog in the fight, but I have to point out the obvious; You acknowledged that the OP asked people to refrain from dissing BRK and then you used another poster's positive comment as free license to do exactly what the OP asked you not to do? I feel like this is the point where a comment about "taking the high road" would be appropriate. :D

As for the OP's topic, I wouldn't consider hand grinding/ finishing to be the same as "handmade", but that's just my personal point of view. "Handmade" can refer to just about anything a person wants it to. You see the same thing with "custom" kydex sheath and holster makers. They likely started off as truly custom, but by the time they become well known and ramp up production, they are no longer willing to do custom work, yet they keep the title.
 
I think that terminology is important along with the definitions; Handmade, custom, semi-custom or handmade, hand fitted, factory made, machine made, bench made, hand finished, hand forged, assembled by hand, made with old world craftsman ship.... I'm just scratching my head over the terminology and the intended meanings. Where do you draw the line? Marketing does come into play on this.

I have tried to take the high road with this thread. I''m interested. I also think this kind of discussion relative to knife making is relevant. I don't think BRKT advertises their knives as hand made. But I feel that they come close.
 
BoulderTroll said:
I don't have a dog in the fight, but I have to point out the obvious; You acknowledged that the OP asked people to refrain from dissing BRK and then you used another poster's positive comment as free license to do exactly what the OP asked you not to do? I feel like this is the point where a comment about "taking the high road" would be appropriate. :D
.
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Maybe you skimmed posts or dont know which past history invariably pops up in these threds about BRK/MS and which no doubt the OP referred to in his initial post. I notice you have few posts here and might not have been very active. Further more you obviously missed the links posted by another forum member.
The OP asked people to not diss the company in this thread (plenty of post about said past in the links, which another forum member chose to post).
We all he know, what he refers to - it all (/always) boils down to MS and his past and present dealings, his morals or lack there of. I could have brought that up but I didnt. Plenty of that in the links posted by another forum member.
I did remark with a tongue in cheek comment/smily icon, that the same must then pertain to thinly veiled comments/digs such as 'I don't have this big mental block (bias perhaps) against Bark River regardless of past history.'
To be honest, the OPs comment could be seen as unfortunate, as the OP himself asked people to not comment on the elephant in the room. Especially if he wants to keep this thread on the straight and narrow/open. I bet he sees that in retrospect.
For what its worth, I personally dont really have a problm with the OPs comment hence the tongue in cheek comment and winking icon.

The OP commented on how well he liked the knives themselves. I replied, that I didnt particularly and why I didnt.
 
I think that the evolution of this thread is a manufacturer like BRK considered to be making hand made knives or not. There are many high end manufacturers that fit this mold not just BRK. It really boils down to whether you believe that hand made includes blade blanks cut out by hand or by cnc mill or stamping machine. Machetes are stamped out of sheet metal stock by a press by the thousands. Then some worker installs handles and put a bevel that no one could really call an edge, except for the fact that the blade is so thin that it cuts grass regardless of how sharp it is. If you consider cnc machined blades handmade, then all machetes are hand made. So millions upon millions of machetes are all hand made and kitchen knives to.
 
I guess it's going to depend upon your definition of "Hand Made". Which is changing in our modern world.
N Natlek , has it 100% right.

In my view, I do consider my Bark Rivers to be "hand made", with the modern asterisk attached.
 
BladeScout said:
Maybe you skimmed posts or dont know which past history invariably pops up in these threds about BRK/MS and which no doubt the OP referred to in his initial post. I notice you have few posts here and might not have been very active. Further more you obviously missed the links posted by another forum member.
The OP asked people to not diss the company in this thread (plenty of post about said past in the links, which another forum member chose to post).
We all he know, what he refers to - it all (/always) boils down to MS and his past and present dealings, his morals or lack there of. I could have brought that up but I didnt. Plenty of that in the links posted by another forum member.
I did remark with a tongue in cheek comment/smily icon, that the same must then pertain to thinly veiled comments/digs such as 'I don't have this big mental block (bias perhaps) against Bark River regardless of past history.'
To be honest, the OPs comment could be seen as unfortunate, as the OP himself asked people to not comment on the elephant in the room. Especially if he wants to keep this thread on the straight and narrow/open. I bet he sees that in retrospect.
For what its worth, I personally dont really have a problm with the OPs comment hence the tongue in cheek comment and winking icon.

The OP commented on how well he liked the knives themselves. I replied, that I didnt particularly and why I didnt.
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I see a lot of smoke and mirrors (and false assumptions). I view topics in a more "matter of fact" way; The OP has been involved in BRK threads that got closed, and wanted to avoid it with his. He understands that negative comments about a company are more likely to get a thread closed than positive ones, so he asked people to refrain from the negative comments. There's not much else to say.
 
BoulderTroll said:
I see a lot of smoke and mirrors (and false assumptions). I view topics in a more "matter of fact" way; The OP has been involved in BRK threads that got closed, and wanted to avoid it with his. He understands that negative comments about a company are more likely to get a thread closed than positive ones, so he asked people to refrain from the negative comments. There's not much else to say.
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Lol, mr Troll, 'smoke and mirrors and false assumptions.' There are NO smoke, mirrors nor false assumptions in regards to infamous pond scum. All is well documented here on bf forever. Those interested can look up the threads themselves and make up their own mind.

Wow, they came out even faster this time than in the threads linked to by another member. Some of the names are even the same. A well oiled machine by now - must be reactions to the very frequent 'smoke, mirrors and false assumptions,,' which for some reason pops up every time BRK/MS is mentioned.
Tragic /comical thing is, that hadnt you kicked/been kicked into gear, I wouldnt have pursued this in this thread.
You may have misread* the room but the second half of your forum nick is well chosen, Ill grant you that, mr Troll:D

*Mordors Sauron wont be pleased with this one:D
 
BladeScout said:
Lol, mr Troll, 'smoke and mirrors and false assumptions.' There are NO smoke, mirrors nor false assumptions in regards to infamous pond scum. All is well documented here on bf forever. Those interested can look up the threads themselves and make up their own mind.

Wow, they came out even faster this time than in the threads linked to by another member. Some of the names are even the same. A well oiled machine by now - must be reactions to the very frequent 'smoke, mirrors and false assumptions,,' which for some reason pops up every time BRK/MS is mentioned.
Tragic /comical thing is, that hadnt you kicked/been kicked into gear, I wouldnt have pursued this in this thread.
You may have misread* the room but the second half of your forum nick is well chosen, Ill grant you that, mr Troll:D

*Mordors Sauron wont be pleased with this one:D
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I'm seeing a defensive (and immature...attacking my forum name?) attitude, where no offense has been given. I made a simple observation, and you are choosing to make a battle out of it. My comment about smoke and mirrors, and false assumptions had nothing to do with BRK or their practices. It related to your comments about me. You were bringing up post count, implying I skim threads, and stating that I'd missed links provided by another poster, all in an attempt to reduce the merit of my opinion. Another name for that is "smoke and mirrors", or a diversionary tactic, if you prefer. The false assumptions you made are that I skim posts (not only do I not skim them, I read all three links provided by the other poster), and that I'd missed his links.

I have no opinion on BRK knives, other than the one I held many years ago that my buddy had purchased, felt too small in my hand. I have never been drawn to them. That's it. You're trying to find an enemy where there is none. I made a passing comment about you not honoring the wishes of the OP, and you make a war out of it, and yet I'm the "troll"?
 
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BoulderTroll said:
I'm seeing a defensive (and immature...attacking my forum name?) attitude, where no offense has been given. I made a simple observation, and you are choosing to make a battle out of it. My comment about smoke and mirrors, and false assumptions had nothing to do with BRK or their practices. It related to your comments about me. You were bringing up post count, implying I skim threads, and stating that I'd missed links provided by another poster, all in an attempt to reduce the merit of my opinion. Another name for that is "smoke and mirrors", or a diversionary tactic, if you prefer. The false assumptions you made are that I skim posts (not only do I not skim them, I read all three links provided by the other poster), and that I'd missed his links.

I have no opinion on BRK knives, other than the one I held many years ago that my buddy had purchased, felt too small in my hand. I have never been drawn to them. That's it. You're trying to find an enemy where there is none.
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You made an erroneous statement and either had an agenda or was not informed.
I dont regard you as an enemy. That would mean, I lent an iota of credence to your statements.
I do think you guys need.a new script. The 'smoke, mirrors and false assumptions' one has grown long in the tooth. Which ever excuses you have.


Again, had you not quoted me, I wouldnt have commented on this. You managed to derail this thread all by your lonesome.

I strongly suggest, we put the kibosh on this one and let the OP get on with his thread.

Im out of this one.
 
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BladeScout said:
You made an erroneous statement and either had an agenda or was not informed.
I dont regard you as an enemy. That would mean, I lent an iota of credence to your statements.
I do think you guys need.a new script. The 'smoke, mirrors and false assumptions' one has grown long in the tooth. Which ever excuses you have.


Again, had you not quoted me, I wouldnt have commented on this.

I strongly suggest, we put the kibosh on this one and let the OP get on with his thread.

Im out of this one.
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I'm happy to follow your suggestion, I think this has gone on longer than needed. I just need to tell you I have absolutely no idea what you mean by, "you guys". I don't know who you associate me with. Here's a link to me and all of my 3k post count glory: :D
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=278186
 
So we all agree, Bark River Knives are not hand made, unless your cheap kitchen knives are, then everything is hand made:D
 
BoulderTroll said:
I see a lot of smoke and mirrors (and false assumptions). I view topics in a more "matter of fact" way; The OP has been involved in BRK threads that got closed, and wanted to avoid it with his. He understands that negative comments about a company are more likely to get a thread closed than positive ones, so he asked people to refrain from the negative comments. There's not much else to say.
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If bark river knives are hand made, then how does 10xx steel get confused with 20cv? It would appear those hands are untrained with making hand made knives. They couldn't tell the difference? I don't make knives but I sure as bloody hell would immediately know the difference in a simple sharpening, much less hand making.

Some of bark river's issues are more than relevant to this discussion and should not be excluded.
 
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