Do you consider Bark River knives handmade?

Isn't there a disconnect between custom and mass produced?

Custom, made to order.
Mass produced, many, many made, pick the color you like from what's available.

Handmade used to mean that hands held the piece or the tool working on the piece.
 
"Hand made" goes from "entirely hand made, no power tools involved" (I think of HI) to "all components machine produced and final assembly hand made" (that would be BRK). There's a lot in between, and most of it is excellent stuff. Very little knife makers master the process from forging the steel to fitting a handle and finishing / sharpening / polishing the blade. Those who do (and there are), deserve all my respect. But those in between turn out gorgeous products, too. The issue with BRK is "honesty". And there is the bone.
 
pinnah said:
Does hand made require hand mining of ore? The smelting of steel?
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I think it might. By the stict definition here (unless allowed by a committee vote) all manner of unacceptable methods are being used to create knives that are called handmade.

Were the brass pins forged/drawn from billets? Is it okay to use a clean flat blank about that was rolled in a giant factory without an humans touching it during the process? What about the use of stabilized wood or other materials for scales? What about the use of micarta? Who decides where the line is when using a belt grinder that has different grind wheels, platens and grits of every belt that can be imagined? Shouldn't that grinding work be done on softened steel in a vise with large files to keep the work authentically handmade? Are angle grinders okay for rough shaping or should that be a hacksaw? Should buffing wheels and compound be replaced with a dauber and various grits of rottenstone?

Can't think of much of anything (knives included) that woul qualify as 100% handmade anymore after reading this thread.

Not even the custom cabinets I have been selling for about 40 years. I still use power sanders, power drills, an assortment of power saws, drill presses, impact drivers, etc. Although I hand select the wood I use, I don't grow it, and I don't mill it. I have milled my own stock and dried it before using it but that was to cost inefficient for me. I do mix up some of my own finishing products from my own recipes depending on the client's wants, but I don't cast metal cabinet or drawer knobs, and I don't make my own hinges or catches, or brad's/screws either. I have turned custom wood knobs as needed, but that isn't the norm.

Maybe I need to rethink what I call my product!
 
Handmade by definition is made by hand. So to what level of machinery use still qualifies. Cnc. Water jet. Belt grinder. Angle grinder. Hand file.

Does the blade need to be hammer forged by hand into shape? Do the cutting of a steel blank matter toward the definition?

Tops knives will use a CNC to cut the blanks and make the initial bevels in the blades as well. Then just finish everything with a belt sanding.

Its very murky when a lot of hand work is involved in the making of a knife but large machinery is used at the starting point.
 
These are in no way custom or semi custom,had to fix grinds on my vest pocket bowie out of factory,as they were unevenly ground,like by 5 year old kid.....otherwise the knife is good,after fixing primary grind it sharpens easily and heat treat is very good,1084 but holds edge for long time,super easy to sharpen.Wouldnt buy their knife again though,except some bowies(its better to go custom for little more),and no you cant compare these knives to Randalls.
 
Natlek said:
Hand made knife for me is if you don t use ANY power tool to make it ...This are hand made knives ...... :D
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I have several Thai knives made by an old blacksmith about 40 years ago. He had no power tools, not even a hand-cranked grinder. He'd hot chisel off a piece of truck spring and forge the entire net shape. He'd remove the forging scale and refine the cross section with a homemade draw knife. He did have a file to fine tune the edge. Heat, quench and temper in one continuous process. Sharpening was done on a big natural stone. When he was young, he did get iron from river sand, I believe. This guy still uses similar methods. It's a hard way to make a buck.
 
lonestar1979 said:
These are in no way custom or semi custom,had to fix grinds on my vest pocket bowie out of factory,as they were unevenly ground,like by 5 year old kid.....otherwise the knife is good,after fixing primary grind it sharpens easily and heat treat is very good,1084 but holds edge for long time,super easy to sharpen.Wouldnt buy their knife again though,except some bowies(its better to go custom for little more),and no you cant compare these knives to Randalls.
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I don't think BR knives qualify for custom or semi-custom if for no other reason than the knives are produced in batches and not made to a specific customer (other than the retail seller) specs. But I still lean toward "semi-handmade" which opens up a huge grey area as to just what that means in reality as just about every knife made has a lot of hand work involved in making it.

Why can't BR knives be compared to Randalls? Just a question and curious?

With firearms, most companies have gone to CNC and molds for many of the parts manufacture. One of the things about the Colt of old was that the parts were manufactured, but were hand fitted to each gun. But that is not custom, semi-custom, or would qualify as "handmade". Guess that's why they were made in a FACTORY.
 
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While I have no objection to asking the question, I want to say - I couldn't possibly care less whether a knife is custom, handmade, semi-custom, semi-handmade, etc. It makes no difference to me what process results in a knife being one that I like well enough to buy. If it is, it is.
 
So there is a blanket label of "Hand Made" often applied to many goods, not just knives, that tends to mean one of two things.

A) Hand Made - all work and crafting done by hand
B) Hand Assembled & Finished - parts are often machine made but final assembly and finishing are done by hand

Hand Made is great for a respect to craftsmen and artistry but generally you aren't really getting anything from Hand Made that you can't get from Hand Assembled & Finished. I do agree that advertising hand assembled and finished as hand made is dubious so I don't support it I just support the quality of work it often produces.

None of these remarks are specific to any one maker just in case anyone who hates BR wants to assume I am trying to defend them.
 
I think BRK's knives are more handmade than not, but it's kind of like leather to me. Bonded leather is still technically leather, but it's obviously inferior to full-grain.

Fully handmade to me would be made from bar stock and block cuts of handle material with the fasteners made from round stock metal or composites.

Grades of handmade would range from using purchased fasteners on the most minor end (mostly handmade) to using blanks with the primary bevel and mostly-formed handle scales on the extreme end (barely handmade at all).

Fully factory made would be everything but final sharpening done on machines.

Hand-assembled would be final sharpening and assembly and fitting of factory-made parts.

There are, of course, good knives made on both ends of those spectrums as well as everything in between. Having some level of factory machine manufacturing involved doesn't miraculously make a knife worse, just less handmade.

craytab said:
If bark river knives are hand made, then how does 10xx steel get confused with 20cv? It would appear those hands are untrained with making hand made knives. They couldn't tell the difference? I don't make knives but I sure as bloody hell would immediately know the difference in a simple sharpening, much less hand making.

Some of bark river's issues are more than relevant to this discussion and should not be excluded.
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That's a separate issue that's not really relevant, because whether it's hand made or not has nothing to do with whether the hands that put the steel in the waterjet cutter... or the saw... or the forge... put the correct steel in. You could waterjet, hand-cut, or hand-forge the wrong steel, the method you use to cut the blade blanks is not relevant to that. Stock steel bars have to be marked for a reason, so people don't do that. That's an inventory and process management issue at Bark River not relevant to whether or not their knives are handmade.
 
Randalls are better made,period!BarkRiver make pretty good knife,but theyre mostly hype too,with bunch of fanboys supporting each other and the owner of BR,etc.Have seen a lot of BR fanboys with huge collections,but these people do not use their knives,just praise how well they perform.Theyre too thick for my taste,and also too expensive for what you get.Pple are afraid to use these knives hard :).
 
lonestar1979 said:
Randalls are better made,period!BarkRiver make pretty good knife,but theyre mostly hype too,with bunch of fanboys supporting each other and the owner of BR,etc.Have seen a lot of BR fanboys with huge collections,but these people do not use their knives,just praise how well they perform.Theyre too thick for my taste,and also too expensive for what you get.Pple are afraid to use these knives hard :).
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Don't know.... both Randalls and BR knives seem pretty well made to me. I own several of each. If I am looking for a knife, I don't dismiss the BR option. Randall's often get dismissed because of supply issues as well as price, but has nothing to do with quality. A lot of the BR knives are a little thick as far as I'm concerned, but so are the mainstays made by Randall like the 14's and 15's which I own. Not everyone needs a pry bar. The problem is that is most of what you see on knives in the 5" inch+ category. Tis one of the reasons I like the old Jack Crider Special.
 
madcap_magician said:
I think BRK's knives are more handmade than not, but it's kind of like leather to me. Bonded leather is still technically leather, but it's obviously inferior to full-grain.

Fully handmade to me would be made from bar stock and block cuts of handle material with the fasteners made from round stock metal or composites.

Grades of handmade would range from using purchased fasteners on the most minor end (mostly handmade) to using blanks with the primary bevel and mostly-formed handle scales on the extreme end (barely handmade at all).

Fully factory made would be everything but final sharpening done on machines.

Hand-assembled would be final sharpening and assembly and fitting of factory-made parts.

There are, of course, good knives made on both ends of those spectrums as well as everything in between. Having some level of factory machine manufacturing involved doesn't miraculously make a knife worse, just less handmade.



That's a separate issue that's not really relevant, because whether it's hand made or not has nothing to do with whether the hands that put the steel in the waterjet cutter... or the saw... or the forge... put the correct steel in. You could waterjet, hand-cut, or hand-forge the wrong steel, the method you use to cut the blade blanks is not relevant to that. Stock steel bars have to be marked for a reason, so people don't do that. That's an inventory and process management issue at Bark River not relevant to whether or not their knives are handmade.
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Welp, take it for how you want. If brk is hand making knives, those hands have failed repeatedly. If they aren't hand making knives the blame could be put on large scale production. Pick your poison.

A quality craftsman hand making a knife would never ever mistake 10xx and 20cv.
Ever.
 
lonestar1979 said:
Randalls are better made,period!BarkRiver make pretty good knife,but theyre mostly hype too,with bunch of fanboys supporting each other and the owner of BR,etc.Have seen a lot of BR fanboys with huge collections,but these people do not use their knives,just praise how well they perform.Theyre too thick for my taste,and also too expensive for what you get.Pple are afraid to use these knives hard :).
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I've heard some fit and finish issues with newer Randalls from the last 20 years or so. Not so much that the company would be doomed, but a fair number of people saying it should be better for the price.

The issue I have with Randall is the same that I have with Emerson... really soft steel for 'easy sharpening.'
 
Bark River knives are good,and i like some of their knives(big bowies and copies of Randall knives-blackjacks).I think theyre overpriced,and overhyped by fanboys that dont even use the knives.
 
Overhyped and overpriced is what i think for m9st knives on market.For user knife id rather get cold steel trailmaster or recon scout,or some of Ontario or Becker knives by Kabar.Do not see a lot of bark rivers tested online,as most who own them are not users.I have one vest pocket bowie by BR,had to fix primary grind on belt sander as it was terrible,but handle and heat treat was pretty good on knife.I wouldnt buy BR again.
 
lonestar1979 said:
Bark River knives are good,and i like some of their knives(big bowies and copies of Randall knives-blackjacks).I think theyre overpriced,and overhyped by fanboys that dont even use the knives.
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The thing you get from BRK that is hard to find elsewhere is the handle contouring and material selection. It's rare to find anyone else working in really high-end handle materials at that price point. I do also love their Blackjacks and know a fair number of people who have Randall collectors and Blackjack users. They had a run of 1-7 knives in 3V. I would have jumped on one... if I could have trusted for sure that they actually were 3V.
 
I like the Blackjack classics. In particular I am fond of the 125 and 1-7. Have an old trail guide model that was done in A2 that is pretty nice too. I just like this style of knife in general. I wonder how many people would be upset if a knife was supposed to be in A2 and was actually done in 3V by mistake. I suspect the mistake occurred because the steel was improperly marked by who ever cuts the blade blanks.
 
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