Does carbon steel ever stop making food taste weird?

[Woodrow F Call]

In my experience....

Fresh steel produces a strong flavor. Once a good patina develops, less to no noticeable flavor is there..... Also, the longer the steel lingers on the fruit, the more reaction and therefore flavor. I rarely find flavor with on any of my "well used" knives. My pocket knives are frequently used for apples and tomatoes for lunch at work.... Also cutting meat at work (all lunch).

I like the nostalgic old school look of a patina'd knife. I generally just wipe the blade clean. I rarely use water on the blades. I only oil the blades when it's time to oil the joints. I use mineral oil as it's food safe.

 

[afishhunter]

I've never noticed a difference in taste after using a carbon steel blade or a stainless blade.

 

[skyhorse]

I've no bad taste using a carbon blade. Ethan Becker makes carbon camp knives used for food prep so it's no big deal imho.

 

[screened porch]

I guess you missed my later posts. It had been a few years, and was mistaken. It's often discretion of health inspectors. If they're perfectly shiny though, there isn't a problem.

That would be a nuisance keeping them shiny.
I have a couple of cards that had Utica Hammer Forged high-carbon knives in them. The label says to clean with scouring powder after each use, but they knew we wouldn't, because it also says that darkening is the hallmark of fine carbon steel.

 

[Vinifera]

My bust, however apparently it can be the discretion of a health inspector. A restaurant can get dinged if there is any patina on a knife as the patina can fall off into food. So if you keep your carbon steel butchers knife immaculately spotless, you'll be alright. If there is any bit of patina, depending on the inspector, you could get dinged. If it's covered in patina, some inspectors might let it slide, some will ding you.
Having once been an advocate of 1095 and knowing the effort to keep it shiny, I'm more comfortable if a chef is using stainless steel.

A health inspector enforces rules and regulations so he or she has limited "discretion" unless it is based on a law or regulation. Do you have any evidence of someone being convicted of a violation of law or regulation for patina "falling into food"? In addition do you have a citation to any such law or regulation?

 

[jc57]

If you read the FDA Food Code, there is no specific mention of carbon steel vs. stainless steel (there are very specific rules about cast iron). But in Chapter 4, it does mention general requirements for "Equipment, Utensils, and Linens". It is not the law, but is a set of recommendations for use by local jurisdictions for creating laws. It is targeted for commercial food preparation and restaurants, not for you slicing up your apples with a pocket knife.

4-101.11 Characteristics.

Materials that are used in the construction of UTENSILS and FOOD-CONTACT SURFACES of EQUIPMENT may not allow the migration of deleterious substances or impart colors, odors, or tastes to FOOD and under normal use conditions shall be:
(A) Safe;
(B) Durable, CORROSION-RESISTANT, and nonabsorbent;
(C) Sufficient in weight and thickness to withstand repeated WAREWASHING;
(D) Finished to have a SMOOTH, EASILY CLEANABLE surface; and
(E) Resistant to pitting, chipping, crazing, scratching, scoring, distortion, and decomposition

.

(My bold italics, the caps are from the original source doc.)

So you could argue from the description that reactive carbon steel knives do not fit the requirements of being corrosion-resistant or resistant to pitting. It is possible, then, that some local or state laws might in fact restrict or limit the use of non-stainless knives in commercial kitchens. I don't have any specific examples of an actual law. I just found this with a simple Google search prompted by this thread.

 

[knarfeng]

under normal use conditions shall be

In writing federal specifications and laws, the word "shall" is used to indicate a requirement. So, it is more than a recommendation.

 

[neeman]

In my experience....

Fresh steel produces a strong flavor. ....................

A friend of mine married a Japanese man and lived in rural Japan for many years.
She described the custom of after sharpening knives, they are not used for a day so there is no taste of the fresh metal when they will be used (all the knives are carbon)

 

[stezann]

.....Clearly, people vary about this, some don't seem to notice it. I do, very much. I suspect that knives with brass liners are even worse offenders as it somehow combines with the carbon steel to up the taint effect :barf: ....

I think you might be onto something here with the brass! The copper alloys for sure release unpleasant tastes and smells by oxy reactions, while i have never felt anything strange with the carbon steels.

 

[supratentorial]

nice work researching it, jc57 :thumbup:

 

[jc57]

Don't want to further derail the thread into commercial kitchen regulations, but I thought I had posted the link to where I found that earlier: http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm374275.htm

Per the docs, it says it is "advice" and a "model ... offered for adoption by local, state, and federal governmental jurisdictions" so is not necessarily an actual set of laws or regulations.

They provide links to your local state laws if you are interested. In TN, where I live, it looks like they adopted the FDA code word for word.

I think you are still free to use a carbon steel pocket knife to cut up your food for personal consumption all you want.

When I prepared this breakfast a while back (mainly for the photo op) I used a Case CV steel Small Texas Jack. The food tasted fine.

 

[jrawk]

I didn't read all the responses, but it seems weird to me the portion of food a carbon steel knife ever so briefly made contact with would change the taste of the food. Unless maybe you're using the knife as an eating utensil as well (like a fork) and licking the steel. :barf:

 

[jc57]

They make "sweet iron" bits for horses out of carbon steel. Some horses like the taste and some don't. So it all depends on what kind of horse you are as to whether you like a little sweet iron with your apples.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I didn't read all the responses, but it seems weird to me the portion of food a carbon steel knife ever so briefly made contact with would change the taste of the food. Unless maybe you're using the knife as an eating utensil as well (like a fork) and licking the steel. :barf:

Chemistry. The acids and salts in food will react with the iron in the steel, and vice-versa. Ions get exchanged between the steel and the food, and both become chemically altered from it at the area of contact. It's more obvious with highly acidic fruits, and the effect can be noticed with just a few seconds' worth of exposure. Slice a grape, rub it against the blade and watch the light-colored fruit turn dark blue, purple or black, and then taste it (and smell the blade). It gets pretty funky sometimes...


David

 

[screened porch]

Apparently sensitivities vary. Or some of us are insane.
I sometimes smell a tomato-carbon reaction, but I don't simmer the knife in the sauce, and I don't taste anything terrible.

 

[knarfeng]

Apparently sensitivities vary.

Yes. Some folks notice it. Some don't.

 

[supratentorial]

Also, everything is a matter of degree.

Looks yummy!

 

[abbydaddy]

Apparently sensitivities vary. Or some of us are insane.
I sometimes smell a tomato-carbon reaction, but I don't simmer the knife in the sauce, and I don't taste anything terrible.

I think the issue for me is really just more one of sensitivity than anything else. That is what I am realizing.

Maybe I could get used to it, but I think I am just going to enjoy my carbon steel knives mainly with my eyes.

 

[knarfeng]

Maybe I could get used to it, but I think I am just going to enjoy my carbon steel knives mainly with my eyes.

ummm...not to drift too far off topic. But you DO realize that a lot of folks use the heck of their pocket knives, yet never use them for food?

 

[abbydaddy]

ummm...not to drift too far off topic. But you DO realize that a lot of folks use the heck of their pocket knives, yet never use them for food?

Of course, but as I wrote in my original post, one of my primary uses of my traditionals is cutting fruit for my daughter. Every day when I pick her up from preschool she wants me to cut up an apple for her. It's kind of a ritual, and traditionals usually have better geometries for such things. Plus, I feel like the traditional knives seem less scary for other parents.

Other people use their knives for non-food purposes, but for me, fruit slicing is THE primary use I have for traditionals. That is why I started the thread. I wanted to figure out if this year's forum knife was going to fit into my normal uses. The 2015 is what I carry everyday, and it is great. I was just hoping that this one could work in as well.