Does carbon steel ever stop making food taste weird?

abbydaddy said:
but for me, fruit slicing is THE primary use I have for traditionals.
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Sorry. I didn't get that it was your PRIMARY usage, I just read that it was A usage.
 
T. Erdelyi said:
This^^^^^^^^^^^^:thumbup:

Personally I never taste it, I can smell it on a new blade as the patina begins to form but unless I scrub the blade the smell goes away



How does patina fall off? if it falls off it's rust. I worked in the food industry for a little over 3 years, I had to deal with the USDA inspectors every day, they had an office behind my maintenance shop. They never said anything about any knife unless it has a place for bacteria to hide. As long as the blades were clean and oiled at the end of the day and stored in airtight containers we were fine.

Granted over 80% of the blades were stainless except the ones the rabbi used, Rabbi Fuchs was old school Orthodox Kosher, the O with the u inside kinda kosher so his knives were all carbon steel. The reason stainless is used is because it's generally low maintenance. The women that worked the tables all had sets of SS butcher knives at each station but each one carried their own HCS blade in these plastic holders they clipped to the splash guards on the tables for the fine work. Everyone there could and did sharpen their own carbon steel blade but all the SS came back to the maintenance shop for me to sharpen on the belt grinder.

The only other thing I know that'll reduce the taste is a food grade polish on a highly buffed blade but most commercial kitchens and food factories use their knives pretty much non stop until the blade begins to fail. I used to sharpen all blades they gave me then buffed the blades. I'll have to see if I can find the stuff I used to use.
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Very interested in what you used.
 
jc57 said:
don't want to further derail the thread into commercial kitchen regulations, but i thought i had posted the link to where i found that earlier: http://www.fda.gov/food/guidanceregulation/retailfoodprotection/foodcode/ucm374275.htm

per the docs, it says it is "advice" and a "model ... Offered for adoption by local, state, and federal governmental jurisdictions" so is not necessarily an actual set of laws or regulations.

They provide links to your local state laws if you are interested. In tn, where i live, it looks like they adopted the fda code word for word.

I think you are still free to use a carbon steel pocket knife to cut up your food for personal consumption all you want.

When i prepared this breakfast a while back (mainly for the photo op) i used a case cv steel small texas jack. The food tasted fine. :)





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sir

where is the pork sausage?
 
I did not have sausage that particular day. That breakfast was specifically made so as to take the photos of using the knife while preparing it (and showing the in-progress development of the patina on the blade). I don't normally use pocket knives in food preparation.
 
Clean off the patina with Flitz, get a good shine. Then two to three coats of Renaissance Wax will last through a few fruit cuttings and protect the blade and fruit from oxidation. I like all my knives shiny, including carbon steel. Ren Wax and Flitz are my friends :)
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Chemistry. The acids and salts in food will react with the iron in the steel, and vice-versa. Ions get exchanged between the steel and the food, and both become chemically altered from it at the area of contact. It's more obvious with highly acidic fruits, and the effect can be noticed with just a few seconds' worth of exposure. Slice a grape, rub it against the blade and watch the light-colored fruit turn dark blue, purple or black, and then taste it (and smell the blade). It gets pretty funky sometimes...
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Yeah I get that. I have a full set of Old Hickory kitchen knives hand sharpened my wife and I use frequently.

My point, to put it more bluntly, is when we're slicing food, the knife surface is not contacting the food surface for more than a fraction of a second at a time. We don't slowly cut or leave our knives in/on the meats/fruits for any substantial reaction to occur. I guess there are more sensitive people that can taste a reaction of a 0:00.115 seconds slice through an apple.
 
jrawk said:
Yeah I get that. I have a full set of Old Hickory kitchen knives hand sharpened my wife and I use frequently.

My point, to put it more bluntly, is when we're slicing food, the knife surface is not contacting the food surface for more than a fraction of a second at a time. We don't slowly cut or leave our knives in/on the meats/fruits for any substantial reaction to occur. I guess there are more sensitive people that can taste a reaction of a 0:00.115 seconds slice through an apple.
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You are a fast slicer then.
Though I doubt you can cut faster than many chemical reactions. I had a freshly polished sr101 blade cut a pristine onion and at the rooty portion of it it developed some brown slimy stuff right away and the blade itself darkened too.
 
Vinifera said:
A health inspector enforces rules and regulations so he or she has limited "discretion" unless it is based on a law or regulation. Do you have any evidence of someone being convicted of a violation of law or regulation for patina "falling into food"? In addition do you have a citation to any such law or regulation?
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This post highlights your lack of experience with health inspectors.

Sure there are "regulations" to follow, but there is a TON of descresion when it comes to those guys, and there really is no check/balance for them. The laws are also often vague and allow for intentional Inspector judgement.

In the food world, they are more like border patrol than cops. Ultimate jurisdiction and the only pressure on them is to provide violations.

Also, I have personally witnessed violations for a "visibly 'dirty' food contact utensil" for a worn white handle on a fillet knife. Also, a cutting board that was "visibly scored". I was once given a violation personally for drinking ginger ale in the same room where we stored dry goods "consuming beverages in a food storage area". One time there was ice on some boxes in the freezer, he said untreated water is "sewage", so my official reports state "several cases of food encased in sewage".

I know none of those examples pertain to petina, but I wouldn't bat an eye, or be surprised at all to hear of a violation. Especially considering that depening on your location, carbon steel might not be legal at all. And the fact that inspectors do whatever they want basically.
 
A fresh blade may stain fruit. After a good patina has formed I don't notice any issues. I can smell a reaction on the blade but the fruit doesn't taste or smell any different. YMMV. Enjoy your knives.
 
WilliamCody said:
This post highlights your lack of experience with health inspectors.

Sure there are "regulations" to follow, but there is a TON of descresion when it comes to those guys, and there really is no check/balance for them. The laws are also often vague and allow for intentional Inspector judgement.

In the food world, they are more like border patrol than cops. Ultimate jurisdiction and the only pressure on them is to provide violations.

Also, I have personally witnessed violations for a "visibly 'dirty' food contact utensil" for a worn white handle on a fillet knife. Also, a cutting board that was "visibly scored". I was once given a violation personally for drinking ginger ale in the same room where we stored dry goods "consuming beverages in a food storage area". One time there was ice on some boxes in the freezer, he said untreated water is "sewage", so my official reports state "several cases of food encased in sewage".

I know none of those examples pertain to petina, but I wouldn't bat an eye, or be surprised at all to hear of a violation. Especially considering that depening on your location, carbon steel might not be legal at all. And the fact that inspectors do whatever they want basically.
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It was a long time ago, but I worked in food service for years. Sounds like you weren't paying your inspectors the proper gratuity.
 
The Virginian said:
It was a long time ago, but I worked in food service for years. Sounds like you weren't paying your inspectors the proper gratuity.
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What? As in bribe? I hope that was a joke. :-(

My experience with inspectors is limited to Germany but there I got the impression they are more interested in helping you than to get you on small stuff. I still remember
"next time we come make sure there's no dust on that plug point under the table." They didn't write it down but sure enough checked the next time.
 
jrawk said:
Yeah I get that. I have a full set of Old Hickory kitchen knives hand sharpened my wife and I use frequently.

My point, to put it more bluntly, is when we're slicing food, the knife surface is not contacting the food surface for more than a fraction of a second at a time. We don't slowly cut or leave our knives in/on the meats/fruits for any substantial reaction to occur. I guess there are more sensitive people that can taste a reaction of a 0:00.115 seconds slice through an apple.
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The few seconds' time that juice is left on the blade from the first cut is all it takes to sometimes taint the flavor of the second and subsequent cuts. And each subsequent cut will obviously add more fresh acidic juice to the reaction. In mentioning a grape in my earlier reply, I'd noticed this effect in test-slicing some grapes after sharpening up a 'carbone' Opinel blade of mine. As long as the blade was wet with the juice, the reaction between the two continued, and the patina started to show on the blade and the juice started to change color (darker), along with the accompanying change in scent and flavor. If the blade were wiped dry after every single cut, this effect could be diminished somewhat. But it's also not so practical, if a lot of slicing is to be done.


David
 
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WilliamCody said:
This post highlights your lack of experience with health inspectors.

Sure there are "regulations" to follow, but there is a TON of descresion when it comes to those guys, and there really is no check/balance for them. The laws are also often vague and allow for intentional Inspector judgement.

In the food world, they are more like border patrol than cops. Ultimate jurisdiction and the only pressure on them is to provide violations.

Also, I have personally witnessed violations for a "visibly 'dirty' food contact utensil" for a worn white handle on a fillet knife. Also, a cutting board that was "visibly scored". I was once given a violation personally for drinking ginger ale in the same room where we stored dry goods "consuming beverages in a food storage area". One time there was ice on some boxes in the freezer, he said untreated water is "sewage", so my official reports state "several cases of food encased in sewage".

I know none of those examples pertain to petina, but I wouldn't bat an eye, or be surprised at all to hear of a violation. Especially considering that depening on your location, carbon steel might not be legal at all. And the fact that inspectors do whatever they want basically.
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I don't have any specific experience with health inspectors but have dealt with inspectors in many other areas including building inspectors, OSHA inspectors, etc. The job of an inspector is to determine whether the establishment is or is not complying with a law or a regulation promulgated pursuant to law. The inspector may choose to ignore a violation (personal discretion), however if the inspector charges the establishment with a violation of a law or regulation the burden is on the inspector and agency he works for to prove the violation.

An inspector cannot simply do whatever he or she wants but must comply with the law. If the establishment chooses to capitulate and acquiesce in an unlawful citation that is the prerogative of the establishment but at the same time no inspector or agency has unfettered discretion to do what they want. In fact, any regulation which purports to grant absolute discretion to an inspector would be stricken by a court. The rule may also be stricken if it vague and incapable of interpretation. The ultimate authority rests with the courts and not the inspector.
 
Thanks for the demo jc57. I'm curious about your Case CV experience. Your blade looks quite clean in the photos. I know CV has some (to me unknown) %Cr but is not SS. What's your experience with patina developing on this steel without as you mentioned much food exposure?
 
It depends on your environment and usage. When I just carry a carbon steel or CV knife and use it for non-food purposes, they don't develop a patina. If you live or work in a humid environment or your knives are exposed to sweat, then they may rust or develop patina.

I do not prefer a patina so other than occasional intentional experimentation with it, I keep my carbon steel blades polished and protected using oils or other products.
 
So what I'm gathering from this thread is that if I want to use a knife for food, I would be better off with a Queen variant? Does GEC make any models with D2, 420, or CPM154/154CM? This thread has already impacted some of my purchases.
 
Speaking of patina vs glare, has anybody tried turning their shiny stainless into matte as-ground with fine emery cloth?
 
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