Does chopping a really hard wood like mesquite or brazilian harwood damage a knife?

[Esav Benyamin]

So, what's the right technique for chopping with a knife?

Slow and easy while you feel out the conditions and the specific knife's ability. First shot at a knotty hardwood should not be full force. Ramp it up as you see it working.

Keep it up and it still may roll or chip. Contact the manufacturer or reset the bevel yourself.

 

[Big Mike]

Many factors enter the equation.

Steel, Heat Treatment, edge geometry, the nature of the material being chopped, and last, but not least, the skill level (technique) of the user.

So the answer is Yes.

I commented on the last thread, but when I pressed enter it was already closed--so I'm glad this one was started An edge can certainly encur damage when struck against harder materials, but if the company wont warranty in these circumstances, they need to make their customers aware of it. I think it's silly that some people feel it's important to chop with proper technique, or avoid harder woods. Is this smart? Sure! But it has nothing to do with a company's warranty. Any types of wood they want you to avoid need to be explicitly stated in the warranty, if they want to include it. Customers cannot read minds, and there's no reason to assume that their warranty is conditional, when so many other companies warranties' are not. If a company claims to warranty something and makes no mention of specific technique/lumber they will not warranty chopping through, then they have no right to claim it after the fact. This is why stating things clearly is so important--if BRKT failed to, they have no one to blame but themselves when some one damages a knife, using it for the purpose that THEY put forth on their website. And that aside, this shouldn't even be an issue IMO. The Golok is THICKER than my 1311, and scrapyard will warranty my 1311 chopping through ANY wood I choose, so why wouldn't BRKT do the same? By not warrantying(sp?) the damage, it's like their either saying their product is inferior, or they just don't care about their customers. It's just disturbing that they would show such disregard for a legitimate claim.

Funny, I thought this was not a Bark River bashing thread, but I guess I was mistaken.





Big Mike

 

[Polamalu]

Depends both on the knife and on the target. It can be a complex question to answer.

My very first knife was a battle mistress. I did not baby it. I whaled on that sumbitch like there's no tomorrow. I knew I did not have a proper technique and I just wanted to chop, chop and split wood. In the end that knife was still sharp (not shaving sharp) it was sharp enough to still cut a copy paper.

 

[jbmonkey]

i've taken chips out of axe heads before from hitting knots. if hard wood and knots can damage an axe, i'd say it can damage a knife...whether a chopper or not. that said proper setup, edge angle, blade thickness, proper technique...not hitting knots, etc...basically what 42blades said....it should fare okay.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

My very first knife was a battle mistress. I did not baby it. I whaled on that sumbitch like there's no tomorrow. I knew I did not have a proper technique and I just wanted to chop, chop and split wood. In the end that knife was still sharp (not shaving sharp) it was sharp enough to still cut a copy paper.

So? An overbuilt knife, and what kind of wood?

As long as a manufacturer is willing to replace or restore or rebevel a knife, he is fulfilling the warranty.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Does chopping a super hardwood damage the edge of the knife? Considering you're using a cpm 3v, 5160 or infi steel on a knife with a perfect HT and thick edge or even thin. What's the possibility of the edge getting damaged? . . .

If you hit a deer with your motor vehicle, will it be damaged?

As with many things in life, that depends. Glance? Square hit - on the windshield? Prius? HMMWV? Fawn? Old buck?

If the case of a knife impacting against wood, variables include the strength and toughness of the knife given it's edge geometry, the technique of the user (including force applied), and the wood being chopped.

Some woods are so heavy due to density and silicon content that they will not float in water.

Some wood in the form of knots ("tough as pine knots") and growth inside the angle of a branch is much more likely to cause damage than the rest of the tree or bush.

White Oak has a Janka Hardness of 1,360 lbf. (For Janka Hardness think of Rockwell Hardness - the force to imbed a standard object into the material to a standard depth.)

The famously tough hickory has a Janka Hardness of 1,810 lbf (Var: Shellbark")

Mesquite has a Janka Hardness of 2,340 lbf

Lignum Vitae (still used for industrial bearings) has a Janka Hardness of 4,390 lbf

 

[Polamalu]

It was not my intention to bash bark river or any knife maker for that matter. But since you mentioned it. I have a grasso bolo 3, bravo 1, 1.5 and bravo 2. If they use peters heat treat on their 5160 and A2 I have no problem with HT for sure. All three of them suffered rolling but when I took out the factory edge i never had a problems. My only argument with bark river is they shoud tighten up their QC and stop sending out burnned and thin edges on they're knives.....these things has always been their problem.

 

[Dorito Monk]

If you chop hard wood or knotty wood, will your knife break?

Maybe, maybe not. Knife doesn't always beat wood, it's not that simple. It's sure as hell not a smart thing to do if you can avoid it, in any case. Chopping or batoning with your knives in general (especially on hard or knotty woods) is a fantastic way to break them. 'Choppers' and sharpened prybars for batoning seem to be a couple of current knife fads, but as we've seen, they're not immune to breaking when used for chopping / batoning. Hell, I even remember reports of a broken Becker (I think it was a BK-7 or BK-9) that happened during batoning.

 

[Thomas Linton]

It was not my intention to bash bark river or any knife maker for that matter. ... My only argument with bark river is they shoud tighten up their QC and stop sending out burnned and thin edges on they're knives.....these things has always been their problem.

Got it.

 

[midnight flyer]

First of all, everything Karda and Esav said, ditto from me.

I use mesquite in different woodworking projects, to barbecue and in the fireplace. It has several different varieties, and all are as common here as weeds. So much so that many consider it a nuisance tree. It has been a part of every South Texan's life for decades.

It can be extremely hard. So much so, that when dry it is actually brittle! And if you catch a knot or a burl when splitting it, the wood will cleave all the way around unless you have a hydraulic splitter. Quite literally, you can strike dried mesquite with the power and weight behind a sharp hatchet and it will bounce off the wood depending on which variety of mesquite it is and how dried out it is. Mesquite, untreated makes excellent tool handles, gun grips, knife scales and all manner of other useful items that require durability.

I quit splitting mesquite with an axe about 40 years ago as I couldn't. Chopping a length of mesquite is possible, but you need to bring your sharpening equipment and your lunch. Chainsaws are the common tool down here, and those blades are chewed up pretty quick.

Even though I have a fully equipped shop of wood tools (a woodworking contractor) I don't mess with dried out, cured mesquite. It is too hard on the tools and equipment. Even the small stuff, say 3" or so, can be harmful to your tools.

Common sense and experience help identify parameters for use. I might buy the "safest pickup on the planet", but won't run it into a bridge abutment to see how I fare compared to other trucks. I may have what is said to be the world's most accurate watch under all conditions, but won't hit it with a hammer thinking it was covered as an "all condition".

Mesquite it tough. I have chipped hatchets (Plumb) and the only machete I have had work well for trimming was my US issued Ontario. Even when trimming off the small stuff, I keep my file handy to renew the edge frequently. Chipped, damaged or ruined edges seem to be mesquites forte whether it is a machete, bandsaw, splitting wedge, axe, or other assorted edged implements.

Robert

 

[Fancier]

Frozen pine knots, for instance, have been known to bust dollar coin-sized chips out of axes! Hit something hard just the wrong way and your tool can be in a world of hurt, but good technique will help prevent such damage in the majority of circumstances.

Whenever I hear about tool damage while frozen wood is being chopped I wonder if the chopping implement was also frozen. The brittle ductile transition temperature of a steel can be near the freezing point of water.

 

[meanwhile]

So, what's the right technique for chopping with a knife?

Slow and easy while you feel out the conditions and the specific knife's ability. First shot at a knotty hardwood should not be full force. Ramp it up as you see it working.

Keep it up and it still may roll or chip. Contact the manufacturer or reset the bevel yourself.

How about: If you chop the wood with a machete - a $15 tool for cutting grass - then you should damn well be able to cut with a dedictated wood chopping knife costing almost 20 times as much?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

How about: If you chop the wood with a machete - a $15 tool for cutting grass - then you should damn well be able to cut with a dedictated wood chopping knife costing almost 20 times as much?

Not in this scenario: chopping a notoriously dense, tough wood without regard to edge bevel or, perhaps, technique. I must have missed the part where the other thread confirmed that he used a machete on it successfully first.

Hypotheticals can be a good way to explore what we need to try experimentally. Please don't insult us by using them as proof of anything.

 

[JayGoliath]

So, what's the right technique for chopping with a knife?

Some of the woods i've chopped with Cpm3v and 5160 (Janka reading from Supertimber website):

Janka Hardness of Borneo Ironwood: 3010 pounds
Janka Hardness of Chengal : 2130 pounds
Janka Hardness of Coconut: 1600 – 2200 pounds. ( Grade C to Grade A )

If i have to chop a standing tree, i checked for clearance of the fall and whack a 45 deg down, and maybe another 45 deg up from the bottom.
1st and 2nd chops should give you an idea how hard it is;Should it goes in deep i'll do a few more and then a light one from the other side.
Tough ones i will rotate the chops around the tree.

Horizontal fallen trees on the trail? again clean up the branches along and then work a 45 deg right and left, making a gap about half the size of the diameter of that tree so you will have space for straight chop down later. I found as you get to the inner core it's bloody hard and your edge will experience the most abuse. I will then concentrate on the belly on the chopper (the largest area of contact) towards that part.

With all that counts i will evaluate if the blade i brought that day is sufficient for the job. Having broken the tips, rolled some edges and chipped a few thick blades, it taught me to think twice about whacking a seasoned wood with the wrong tool; convex grind is what i'll go for heavy chopping.

To quote Big Mike and Stabman, a lot of variables in the equations and to each its own.

 

[GronK]

If a knife is advertised as a chopper and is damaged while chopping mesquite then the company should take responsibility. You know, like offer to take it back and regrind for the type of use you have for it. What? They did? Oh, never mind then.

 

[Big Mike]

If a knife is advertised as a chopper and is damaged while chopping mesquite then the company should take responsibility. You know, like offer to take it back and regrind for the type of use you have for it. What? They did? Oh, never mind then.

Best post in this thread. :thumbup: :thumbup:





Big Mike

 

[marcinek]

If a knife is advertised as a chopper and is damaged while chopping mesquite then the company should take responsibility. You know, like offer to take it back and regrind for the type of use you have for it. What? They did? Oh, never mind then.

Maybe I'm losing track, but when did this series of events happen? I see no mention of it in this thread.

 

[marcinek]

Maybe I'm losing track, but when did this series of events happen? I see no mention of it in this thread.

Ah. Found a Feedback thread about a Bark River which rolled. I was under the impression, like Big Mike, that this was not a "Bark River" thread.
Hence my confusion.

 

[Karda]

Lets keep on topic and leave brands and the other thread out of the discussion please. There will be no more warnings past this, the thread will just close.

 

[Sullie]

Not in this scenario:Hypotheticals can be a good way to explore what we need to try experimentally. Please don't insult us by using them as proof of anything.

Way to nip that in the butt! I gotta remember that, well put.