Does chopping a really hard wood like mesquite or brazilian harwood damage a knife?

[CowboyStyle]

Knives I have used to chop and split mesquite with no damage to the edge.

Becker/jericho blades

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...vs-mesquite-jericoh-blade-added-new-pic-heavy



becker BHK

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...HK-bushcrafter-3-great-small-knives-pic-heavy



HI/becker

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1014925-HI-Farm-Knife-piv-heavy



esee/becker

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1069836-BK-16-and-Esee-3-comparison

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/968592-bk14-and-esee-candiru-pic-heavy

 

[not2sharp]

Pretty much--it's highly variable in practical application and I can describe in detail various proper blows and the like but it's just a bunch of verbiage for what people generally do just by gut instinct. Minimizing torque on the tool at impact and during withdrawal are pretty darn critical, though, as is avoiding trying to muscle your way through the target.

This. Although, you would still be using the wrong tool for the job (kind of like hammering with a wrench) and some wear and damage should be expected. We should also consider, that unlike the axe, the knife has a long section of blade that will not make contact at the impact point. That hanging material will flex and vibrate which will eventually fatigue the metal and loosen the grip scales.

n2s

 

[Polamalu]

If a knife is advertised as a chopper and is damaged while chopping mesquite then the company should take responsibility. You know, like offer to take it back and regrind for the type of use you have for it. What? They did? Oh, never mind then.

So what's the point of advertising it as a chopper only to fail and regrind it to a thicker bevel. They should have done it in the first place, now it's regrinded looking like anorexic.

 

[Polamalu]

Knives I have used to chop and split mesquite with no damage to the edge.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...HK-bushcrafter-3-great-small-knives-pic-heavy

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1014925-HI-Farm-Knife-piv-heavy

Some people are prolly scratching their heads right now? What? How? Hmmm? Interesting? Those saber grind beckers, I understand why it doesn't have any edge damage. But seeing the flat grind beckers with no damage on the edge amazes me especially on a MESQUITE.

 

[arty]

If you want to chop an ironwood with a knife, I would recommend putting an edge on it like an axe edge - that will help with chopping but detract from normal cutting.

 

[Karda]

Some people are prolly scratching their heads right now? What? How? Hmmm? Interesting? Those saber grind beckers, I understand why it doesn't have any edge damage. But seeing the flat grind beckers with no damage on the edge amazes me especially on a MESQUITE.

The only people that would be scratching their heads are the same people who would turn in a claim for warranty service because their knife chipped/rolled/broke because they chopped wood no matter how dense or hard it was and then blame it on heat treat, poor quality or other factors, cite ad copy or warranty copy, be surprised and get butthurt if a maker/manufacturer doesn't automatically appease them by replacing the product and absorbing the cost for their unreasonable expectations and/or improper usage.

To understand the dynamics of chopping, one needs to have at least a working knowledge of steels, grinds, bevels and sharpness. They would also have to have at least cursory knowledge of wood types and the density of them and they also would need working knowledge of woodsmanship and chopping techniques.
In this day and age, with most knowledge of things readily available on the web, there really is no excuse for being an uneducated consumer. Especially if you are a member of the largest knife forum on the internet where this knowledge is readily available for free and pretty easily found and there are plenty of knowledgeable people willing to teach.

The other thing that bears mentioning is that when a consumer contacts a maker/manufacturer with less than knowledgeable statements about heat treats, grinds and such and posts them in an accusatory manner or posts on forums with these statements, that affects the maker/manufacturers businesses, usually in a negative manner. Some larger companies, with the ability to appease such indiscretion with new product will do so in order to make the problem go away. Others may feel that the consumers education should come from their own pocket, so that they will be less prone to make unknowledgeable statements or accusations. Not all makers or manufacturers can afford to absorb problems due to claims caused by improper or lack of proper knowledge or improper usage.

Unconditional warranties cost money, they are not a "gift" given to you by any maker/manufacturer. The cost of this is built into the product. The consumer pays for this service by higher pricing.

It is the consumers responsibility to educate themselves, especially if they expect a maker/manufacturer to bear the responsibility of replacement of wanton disregard for a products (or steels) inherent qualities. No steel or blade is impervious to breakage. No edge is bullet proof or everlasting.

 

[goodeyesniper]

exactly. some people forget tools, especially knives, often take damage and wear with use. a good wrench can still eventually fail, an axe edge will often become damaged, on the microscopic level knife edges are "damaged" every time you cut something abrasive.

chopping in general is so dynamic, that a few degrees rotation on your swing can turn a clean chop into a damaging chop ESPECIALLY on something like a knife edge.

should I have turned in my shovels that saw years of use and had chips in the edge, and the handle eventually broke? or should I realize that tough labor can affect even the most well built tool?

the problem with both labeling a knife as hard use, and dealing with warranty is that it only takes a second for a moron to damage a knife. I could damage any hard use knife in a matter of minutes on purpose. others do it on accident because they watch too much YouTube idiocy. some people can take a thin, "fragile" slicer and put it to more hard work than your average "hard use" knife will ever see. and some people who sit in an office all day could take their indestructible zombie apocalypse knife into their backyard to play and majorly damage it because they don't understand how tools work.

 

[GronK]

Back in the day one company, Schrade if I recall correctly, used to include a certificate with every knife for replacement in case of anything up to and including loss. Just send in the certificate and get a new knife. Anyone with a brain knew they were buying not one but two knives for the price asked. Similarly, the price of any new product includes the expense of possible warranty replacements or repair. Any company that replaces a product "no questions asked" under any mis-use condition is charging you for two (or more) right out the door.

 

[trestle]

The only people that would be scratching their heads are the same people who would turn in a claim for warranty service because their knife chipped/rolled/broke because they chopped wood no matter how dense or hard it was and then blame it on heat treat, poor quality or other factors, cite ad copy or warranty copy, be surprised and get butthurt if a maker/manufacturer doesn't automatically appease them by replacing the product and absorbing the cost for their unreasonable expectations and/or improper usage.

To understand the dynamics of chopping, one needs to have at least a working knowledge of steels, grinds, bevels and sharpness. They would also have to have at least cursory knowledge of wood types and the density of them and they also would need working knowledge of woodsmanship and chopping techniques.
In this day and age, with most knowledge of things readily available on the web, there really is no excuse for being an uneducated consumer. Especially if you are a member of the largest knife forum on the internet where this knowledge is readily available for free and pretty easily found and there are plenty of knowledgeable people willing to teach.

The other thing that bears mentioning is that when a consumer contacts a maker/manufacturer with less than knowledgeable statements about heat treats, grinds and such and posts them in an accusatory manner or posts on forums with these statements, that affects the maker/manufacturers businesses, usually in a negative manner. Some larger companies, with the ability to appease such indiscretion with new product will do so in order to make the problem go away. Others may feel that the consumers education should come from their own pocket, so that they will be less prone to make unknowledgeable statements or accusations. Not all makers or manufacturers can afford to absorb problems due to claims caused by improper or lack of proper knowledge or improper usage.

Unconditional warranties cost money, they are not a "gift" given to you by any maker/manufacturer. The cost of this is built into the product. The consumer pays for this service by higher pricing.

It is the consumers responsibility to educate themselves, especially if they expect a maker/manufacturer to bear the responsibility of replacement of wanton disregard for a products (or steels) inherent qualities. No steel or blade is impervious to breakage. No edge is bullet proof or everlasting.

I am not trying to mod-sass or question your authority in any way, am just trying to clarify what you're saying in the first half of this post: are you suggesting that all edge damage is the fault of the user? I fit all of the qualifications you've listed in the second half of this post and yet have had an edge chip when chopping correctly on properly chosen medium. It happens sometimes, and is not always the fault of the user. Yes, it is aggravating when the attempted repair by the maker turns the knife into a completely different tool than what was purchased and yes, having an attitude with any maker is the wrong approach. Allowing the maker to attempt repair w/o questioning them is fine to a point; when what started as a 1.5" tall blade comes back missing a quarter-inch or more of steel, it's only responsible of the consumer/user to question the intent of their service.

Allow me to clarify: I have a tool by a manufacturer that is prone to chipping under certain conditions. I have spoken with the maker at length about the issue and there is no rancor or disagreement between us on the conditions and we agree that it just keeps chipping even thought it is being used correctly. What worries me is that he thinks he is meeting his warranty by continuing to regrind out edge chips until there will be nothing left to grind. We have both discussed this on the phone. What happens at that point when there is nothing left to grind? I'm at his mercy; he claims he will make it right but I have nothing in writing and only reputation to go by. And hope, I guess. The whole affair has made me wary of anything over 7" long that isn't a machete or parang with a low-number HT.

 

[Karda]

I am not trying to mod-sass or question your authority in any way, am just trying to clarify what you're saying in the first half of this post: are you suggesting that all edge damage is the fault of the user? I fit all of the qualifications you've listed in the second half of this post and yet have had an edge chip when chopping correctly on properly chosen medium. It happens sometimes, and is not always the fault of the user. Yes, it is aggravating when the attempted repair by the maker turns the knife into a completely different tool than what was purchased and yes, having an attitude with any maker is the wrong approach. Allowing the maker to attempt repair w/o questioning them is fine to a point; when what started as a 1.5" tall blade comes back missing a quarter-inch or more of steel, it's only responsible of the consumer/user to question the intent of their service.

No, i'm not saying that all edge damage is the fault of the user. That would be ludacris to even think so.

What I am saying is that... despite any ad copy or whatnot, the user bears some responsibility for how they use the knife and what they use it on. One should not take a thin bladed knife with a fine bevel and scary sharp edge to a piece of hardwood/ironwood and expect it to chop or baton without damage, nor should they expect the maker/manufacturer to automatically replace it if the should do so, failing to recognize the inherent limitations of the blade or of the steel.

 

[Karda]

Allow me to clarify: I have a tool by a manufacturer that is prone to chipping under certain conditions. I have spoken with the maker at length about the issue and there is no rancor or disagreement between us on the conditions and we agree that it just keeps chipping even thought it is being used correctly. What worries me is that he thinks he is meeting his warranty by continuing to regrind out edge chips until there will be nothing left to grind. We have both discussed this on the phone. What happens at that point when there is nothing left to grind? I'm at his mercy; he claims he will make it right but I have nothing in writing and only reputation to go by. And hope, I guess. The whole affair has made me wary of anything over 7" long that isn't a machete or parang with a low-number HT.

My reply to this would be to stop using the blade under the conditions that make it chip. You are obviously aware of the problem.
Steels can be prone to chipping at higher Rc values. Taken even higher they will blow out large ones. I would suggest that the maker possibly should lower his Rc by a few points to alleviate the problem. Warranty repair is a standard practice, but should not replace warranty replacement in cases of true manufacturing defects.

It is a fine line to walk for both the manufacturer and the user. That is why both should be educated enough to know when a manufacturing problem exists and when it is user error.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Back in the day one company, Schrade if I recall correctly, used to include a certificate with every knife for replacement in case of anything up to and including loss. Just send in the certificate and get a new knife. Anyone with a brain knew they were buying not one but two knives for the price asked. Similarly, the price of any new product includes the expense of possible warranty replacements or repair. Any company that replaces a product "no questions asked" under any mis-use condition is charging you for two (or more) right out the door.

That was the "Uncle Henry" line at Schrade. I own three. Never sent the certificate in as they hid not break. Anyone who thought they were "buying two knives" was ethically challenged regardless of intelligence..
The cost of warranty is built into to price if the business hopes to make profit.

 

[trestle]

My reply to this would be to stop using the blade under the conditions that make it chip. You are obviously aware of the problem.

Yes, I am aware and so is the manufacturer. He encourages me to keep using it and keep sending it in, a cycle I've begun to question.

Steels can be prone to chipping at higher Rc values. Taken even higher they will blow out large ones. I would suggest that the maker possibly should lower his Rc by a few points to alleviate the problem. Warranty repair is a standard practice, but should not replace warranty replacement in cases of true manufacturing defects.

Many have suggested he lower his RC but the suggestions are met with animosity. It's easier to never suggest anything and just take the service offered. But again, I am beginning to question this strategy from a safety and wise-practice standpoint. Said tool sits in the corner gathering rust as I'm tired of this ongoing dilemma. At some point it would be nice if the maker would acknowledge his possible mistakes and offer replacement but there is no previous history for this maker and I'm tired of watching the steel slowly disappear as chips are continuously ground out, regardless of bevel thickness.

In essence, I feel I've met my half of the relationship that you've described but the maker is failing to live up to his part. Therefore I will not purchase from him again and feel no harm in warning others to beware, if asked. And I feel no guilt questioning the practice of someone in this industry but I won't do it facetiously.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Anyone who thought they were "buying two knives" was ethically challenged regardless of intelligence..

I don't think he was suggesting that folks take advantage of such a system so much as saying that you weren't just paying the price of one knife when buying a knife with such a warranty since the manufacturer has to build in that cost. The whole "no free lunch" concept. Though I'm sure some folks sent in the slip immediately after buying the knife like you seem to have been alluding to.

 

[GronK]

I don't think he was suggesting that folks take advantage of such a system so much as saying that you weren't just paying the price of one knife when buying a knife with such a warranty since the manufacturer has to build in that cost. The whole "no free lunch" concept. Though I'm sure some folks sent in the slip immediately after buying the knife like you seem to have been alluding to.

I never actually bought one myself but a dealer at a gunshow suggested it in an attempt to sell to me.

 

[Thomas Linton]

And since most people are, like you, honest, the likely warranty cost is not the cost of a free knife for every one initially sold.

 

[richard j]

polamalu, if you are wondering if the blade is too hard, i can get it rockwell tested. if the rc is ok for the steel, maybe they are profiling the edge wrong for chopping. if you would want to send the knife to me, i can get it rockwell tested and let you know what i think of the edge profile.

 

[midnight flyer]

polamalu, if you are wondering if the blade is too hard, i can get it rockwell tested. if the rc is ok for the steel, maybe they are profiling the edge wrong for chopping. if you would want to send the knife to me, i can get it rockwell tested and let you know what i think of the edge profile.

Wow... I just don't know how you could get better than that. A man that can sharpen anything, makes great knives, and is a completely trusted member of this forum. Good on 'ya, Richard.

With all the controversy here, I would personally love to see the OP take advantage of this generous offer and let Richard be the judge of this issue.

Richard to the rescue!

Robert

 

[Polamalu]

polamalu, if you are wondering if the blade is too hard, i can get it rockwell tested. if the rc is ok for the steel, maybe they are profiling the edge wrong for chopping. if you would want to send the knife to me, i can get it rockwell tested and let you know what i think of the edge profile.

thank you for the offer. i have a instron machine that i used to test my knives. RC was just like the manufacturer has stated but the grinds are just too thin from the factory, after i had it professionally sharpened my BRKT's were ok. i just dont get why they would grind a bolos edge to thin in the first place.

isn't Jerry Busse stated that RC hardness doesn't matter? a person can achieve the same hardness as to person who HT for a day. but theres a huge difference on those two

 

[richard j]

i do my own heat treat on 1075 and i have had guys tell me that the knife i made for them holds up better than some of the super steel knives. here is a vid of a knife i made and sent off on a private passaround. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q_eMwRaHYg

i cut down a locust tree that was 8" across and the knife still shaved hair and push cut newspaper when i was done. i have pictures of the tree i cut down posted at my website. the link to my website is in my sig line and the link to the pictures is on the right. the knife in the picture i did the choppint with has red phenolic scales. i took them off and put on neoprene for the passaround. the other neoprene handle knife is made from some mystery steel. i just put it in the picture along with k II.