Does This Bother Anyone Else?

shecky said:
"The finest quality handmade Knives" may be subjectively true depending how you define "finest quality" and "handmade". Fact is, you can't spend $15 and get that knife. Instead, for $15, you get a bunch of parts. This may be true of a whole lot of $150 knives, $15 worth of parts, assembled with the right logo stamped on the blade and enough care, easily worth 10 times that price. As with anything, knives are worth what customers are willing to pay.
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I've assembled three kit knives (folders). It's not like assembling a stripped down bicycle. Hell, it took all of 10 minutes each to assemble two. The first took more time. . . .I had to round over the scale slabs.

While it's true, "knives are worth what customers are willing to pay," there is a little thing called "truth in advertising."

Taking advantage of a consumer by intentionally "misleading" a consumer is the issue ! A big NO-NO is most books.
 
I had Jay Maines do a handle conversion for me. I sent the knife to him on December 27th and I received the knife back on January 6th this year.
Everything was as Jay said it would be. As far as the kit knives go I wouldn't care to comment, but the one dealing I had with the man turned out pretty good.

Ray Smith
 
What I would like to know is this, is Jay Maines handmaking his knives or is he buying pre-made blades and kits and selling them as handmade customs?

Jay, you are checking out this thread as I am posting this. It should be very easy for you answer this question.
 
He's putting the kits together himself and having the "etch" put on the blade. Then selling them on his site. However, putting the etch on the blade isn't illegal, he buys the kits and assembles them, puts the etch on the blade and Oila! It's a special knife. I do agree with previous posters above that he should at least state that on his website. Sounds underhanded/misleading to me. Same thing occurs in the Southwest turquoise jewelry business. Authenic "handmade" by Native Americans using genuine southwest turquoise and sterling silver. The Asian markets are getting a piece of this lucrative pie by copying these designs and assembling them then selling them back in America for pennies on the dollar. This is "handcrafted" not "handmade". Heck, even Native Americans with no "artistic" talent are handcrafting jewelry from "prefab" kits and passing it on as genuine handmade Native American jewelry because it was "assembled" by Native Americans. Know your product, and if not, before making a substantial investment ask somone knowledgeable, like on this forum for one. Thanks Boozoo Chaviz for bringing this up. Would hate for someone to waste $150 thinking they're getting a "custom handmade" knife that is worth only about $15.
 
What he is doing is probably illegal, question is if someone will pursue it.

Some tid-bits from the FTC, here is a good read, I will throw some quotes from it below.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/policystmt/ad-decept.htm

Most deception involves written or oral misrepresentations, or omissions of material information. Deception may also occur in other forms of conduct associated with a sales transaction. The entire advertisement, transaction or course of dealing will be considered. The issue is whether the act or practice is likely to mislead, rather than whether it causes actual deceptions.
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The Commission believes that to be deceptive the representation, omission or practice must be likely to mislead reasonable consumers under the circumstances.19 The test is whether the consumer's interpretation or reaction is reasonable.20 When representations or sales practices are targeted to a specific audience, the Commission determines the effect of the practice on a reasonable member of that group. In evaluating a particular practice, the Commission considers the totality of the practice in determining how reasonable consumers are likely to respond.
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In other words, how would the group of knife buyers as a whole interpret custom handmade?

From the FTC site:

23.3 Misuse of the terms "hand-made," "hand-polished," etc.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

Note to paragraph (a): As used herein, "raw materials" include bulk sheet, strip, wire, and similar items that have not been cut, shaped, or formed into jewelry parts, semi-finished parts, or blanks.

(b) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.
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These terms are well defined, and buying a blade does not fall into the handmade (even getting a blade laser or waterjet cut would exclude it from being handmade).

Anyway, just wanted to address the it isn't illegal, it is, he is probably just lucky, because our bureaucracy doesn't care to go after small fish.

I would like to know if he is making them, but the blades look to be 100% kit, and not handmade, however, no way to tell until he speaks up.

--Carl
 
I checked out his site and I would say he isn't misleading anyone...

What he is doing is lying... pure and simple. He's even saying the steel is 440C when in fact it's AUS-8.

100% pure scam.
 
barcbsa said:
I checked out his site and I would say he isn't misleading anyone...

What he is doing is lying... pure and simple. He's even saying the steel is 440C when in fact it's AUS-8.

100% pure scam.
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Actually, I think the $15 kits are probably 440A. To quote the knifekits.com site -- "Blade Steel: 440 Stainless (RC 52-55)". I doubt that's 440C.

Doug
 
I shot him an email and he replied back saying that no they are not his design and informed me that Walmart is now having someone making these same knives for them and they are selling them for like $12 -$15. They are indeed built from knifekits though. He is not lying but he is omitting information that buyers/consumers should know. They are not handmade by him or his company nor are they custom. He did pretty much say that this particular model was from a knife kit but did not justify why he is asking $150 for a $15.95 kit knife that he assembled.
 
Actually, he is lying. If he states that his knives are handmade customs and doesn't state anywhere that they are made from kits or pre-made blades, he is lying. I do not know this for sure, but I also doubt that the blades are made from 440C. If knifekits.com list the blade steel as 440, it is most likely 440A. If it were 440C, they would be listing it as such, because that would be a great selling point.

All of his folders are kits. The 901 is the GPC-1000. The 902 is the FL-001. The 903 is the FL-007. The 904 is the DDR3-BL. The 905 is the GX6. He does fancy them up if you want, but they all start out as kits.
 
right , he should tell folks that his knives are not 100% handmade by him but it does take some skill in putting them together,but most people with any knife knowledge can spot a kit blade from a mile away.

Dale
 
The guy's whole business is based on deception and trickery.

Most buyers will believe the are buying a "handmade custom knife" and will have no idea they're buying Far Eastern, mass produced knife kit. When they find out, they'll feel ripped off... and they were ripped off.

Nothing wrong with knives made in China. Nothing wrong with putting kit knives together and selling them.

There IS something wrong with dishonesty.
 
This kind of thing can really hurt other custom knifemakers. People that have been fooled like this may think that it is common practice and lose all interest in custom knives. The experience will also be told to their friends.
 
By the way, Jay Maines knows what real knifemakers and others think of what he does. A couple of months ago there was a thread about him on another knife forum and he dropped in to read what was being posted. he didn't have the guts to comment on that thread either. It is my opinion that he purposely lies on his website so that he can take advantage of people that don't know as much about knives as we do. He is lower than a snake's belly.
 
This
2thumbsdown.gif
is for Jay Maines.
 
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