Does this kind of sharpener even WORK?!

from about 1980 to present, i have probably sharpende enough knives to fill up a pickup truck bed. i have seen some pretty poor looking knives that the owners were about to pitch. with just a little tlc, i brought some pretty poor looking knives back to life.

i have a real nice uncle henry steelhead fillet knife that i let my dad take to my brother in laws to use when they butchered up several deer. when my dad gave me my knife back i was horrified to see these paralell GROOVES the length of my blade. i called my bro in law up and asked him wtf was he thinking, screwing up my knife on a piece of crap contraption. i told him i'll never loan him any of my knives ever again.

the knife still has some grooves up high on the blade but they will remind me to be more careful as to who i loan my knives to.
 
Yep, they work great, if what you are after is an edge.

They work especially great if you don't have another way of putting an edge on.

They make a nasty edge if you look at it closeup..... but the material you need to cut will likely not care.
 
Sure the edge will be completely crap with a carbide scrapper type sharpener, but also consider the 60 degree angle, what are you going to do to put a nicer micro bevel on that? For people that just don't know better those things seem to work, but I can't think of any excuse for any member on these forums to be using such a sharpener!
 
I'll start by saying I don't use a pull through: I use any/all of the following; Sharpmaker, clamp-system (cherry-picked components from several kits), homemade convex system (adjustable for angle, grit, recurve/straight, etc.). I have no problem creating, keeping, or repairing edges. Also, I do not have any agenda, so please don't assign one to me.

OK, that being said, I have some questions on the assumptions that the scraping of carbide is worse than the abrasion of stone/ceramic/diamond.

1) Acknowledging that wood and steel have different composition and structure, why would "planing" the surface (carbide) be worse than sanding the surface (stone, ceramic, etc.)?

2) If one used a large single crystal (rather than myriad small crystals) to scrape the edge of a steel blade, would the single crystal damage the blade more? If not, how would that differ from carbide?

3) True believers in some of the most respected sharpening methods mentioned in these forums (paper wheels, Wicked Edge, Edgepro, Sharpmaker, clamp systems, freehand, mousepad convexing, etc.) all have stressed the importance of learning curves, technique, and developing a "feel" for the proper amount of force (i.e. almost none). Admittedly, a carbide draw-through is designed to be "idiot proof," but we all know nothing is that simple. If an idiot used the best methods described herein, the idiot would ruin the edge. If the carbide sharpener were used with the same finesse demanded of other systems, would the damage done still be to the same degree?

I'd love to hear some informed commentary backed by experiment.

In order to use a carbide scraper ( that's really what it is ) without damaging the edge, you would have to use one side of the carbide V at a time, and run the edge down the side of it under light pressure. This will scrape and burnish off unwanted metal; the problem here is that you have an extremely hard point of pressure with the 90* side of the carbide puller, and it is entirely too easy to dent or gouge your blade with it. Not to mention that using a scraper in this manner would be very hard because of the consturction, but then if you consider the fact that you can do the same thing with the hard spine of any knife, there really becomes a useless device.

When using a pull-through sharpener the way it's supposed to be used, the problem with the scrapers is that instead of shearing metal off equally as it's being pulled through the angle, it rips some off, leaves some shreds here, twists the blade around a little when making a cut there, etc.

Like I already said, using a carbide scraper is essentially the same as running two knife edges together to sharpen them. A grooved steel is slightly better (its round surface at least puts less pressure on it than the hard corner of the carbide scraper ), but is also doing essentially the same thing.

Now, if I were forced into it, I could probably sharpen a knife with a steel because it's maneuverable enough to get the knife on there right, but as far as a carbide scraper goes the teeth are too close together to really use it in any other way than the way it was intended.

As others have said though, this is all relative to the user. There are knives in the kitchen drawer at my house right now that a pull-through sharpener would do a lot of good for, but really I've never had a pull-through sharpener give me an edge I actually liked, and never really had my own knife so dull I felt like I could settle for it.
 
I'd put my money on Richard J too.He's been doing this a long time,longer than most here.

I've had/have knives he's sharpened & made.They are hands down the sharpest knives I've ever had the pleasure of using.

Richard J and his paper wheels. Hands down. Best value, turnaround time, factory consistent edges, I have gotten from a sharpener. He's also creative and will help you out with oddball projects.

I'm going to team up with him at some point for my next batch of kitchen knives. Chisel ground 52100 - I am lapping the back flat with a bucket of diamond slurry, and he is doing the bevel with his death-wheel. I just need to find the time...

As far as putting the correct edge on a knife for a particular use, my money would be on Richard. He's been doing it a long time.

+1 Richardj

Chriscov, where did you go? They are just paper wheels man, nothing to be scared of. :cool:

:p
 
The Chrisco Kid has been in touch with me via PM and said that he is working like a madman trying to get his knives sharp enough to cut hair. I didn’t have the heart to explain what whittlin’ hair was but I think Knifenut’s picture rattled him a bit. He said he’s gonna need more time cause he done wore out his best huntin’ knife trying to get it sharp. It’s too short for skinnin’ now so he gave it to his mom to peel taters with and as soon as his SSI check comes in he’s going back to the Dollar Store to get a new one, this time one of those fancy chrome ones, “AND THEN IT’S ON”. :eek:
 
I think that we should keep in mind that WE are not the majority of knife buyers or sharpeners. I'd consider those of us on here to be among the, well, elite, when it comes to knives. We like the best we can get, in knives, sharpeners, and edge quality.

For almost everyone else in the WORLD, knives are not a hobby, passion, or art. They are tools and people want them to be able to get a job done. Not really excel at the job, just be capable of finishing it.

These people do not buy a lot of knives. They do not buy expensive knives. They get the cheapest thing they can find to accomplish their task.

They aren't going to spend $300 on an Edge Pro to sharpen a $5 kitchen knife.

Mirror edges, whittling hair, push cutting newspaper, it's all lost on them.

I don't care if someone wants to use a carbide tool to sharpen their knife. A decently sharp edge is still a whole world better than a dull edge.

Just for giggles, I took a dull paring knife I had out to the garage where I have a Smith's 4 in 1 sharpener stashed in a box. I pulled the knife lightly through the carbides 5 times. It wouldn't shave hair, but it would slice printer paper just fine. I pulled it lightly through the ceramic side a couple times and now it just barely shaves. It cuts the paper better too.

It is a pretty edge? No. Is it what I'd call a quality edge? No.

Is it a relatively sharp edge that will accomplish what I ask of it? Yes. Was it fast? Yes, it took all of 15 seconds to do it.

Every sharpener has it's niche. That's the niche of the carbide sharpener. Speed and the ability to give a working edge that is good enough. Not the best, but good enough.

Do I use it all the time? Hell no. That's why I have my Work Sharp.

I do carry one in my field bag, along with a loaded strop. Since most of my knives have a convex edge now (Work Sharp) I use the strop to touch them up when needed. If I'm out and do something to really bugger up the edge, I need more than the strop. I'll use the carbide to get back to working condition and then I'll fix it when I get home, when I will make it "proper".

I find it amusing that there are so many people (not just those who have posted here) who are horrified about using a carbide sharpener because it "ruins" a knife. Then they take their nice knife camping and proceed to baton it though a knotty log or cut open a can with it and complain about it breaking or the damage to the edge.
 
No, because a file has thousands of little teeth that do the cutting, in an equal and distributed manner. As do sharpening stones with all the little abrasives. Sharpening an edge with a carbide edge is just shearing metal off, it's not actually grinding it away in a small and precise manner like a file or an abrasive would. As knifenut's picture pointed out earlier, it makes pieces of the edge tear off as the carbide edge shears across it.

Hmmm... I would disagree. Having seen some file sharpened knives, they look just as ugly, or worse, than a pull-through carbide sharpener. A carbide bit is really the same thing as a file in this case.

If you are curious, you can find carbide sharpeners that are not simple preset angle pull-through types. These are freehand sharpeners, just like a file, but usually more compact. The ones I've seen seem marketed for in-the-field garden tool use. They do a great job with the right steel.


if you care anything about your knives, you dont use something that is going to waste steel and shorten the life of the knife. i bet anyone that uses one of thoes useless contraptions goes through a lot of knives and money.

What you say isn't wrong. But having again seen knives used and sharpened for decades with pull-through sharpeners with lots of life left, the fact of shortening the life of a blade becomes more an academic point than a practical one. It's a nice reminder that my beloved knives are not quite as delicate as pressed flowers, even if I sometimes fall into the trap of treating them as though they were. And of course, using stones, or any other sharpening medium will do just as good a job of shortening the lifespan of a blade just as well as a carbide sharpener. The tool isn't at fault, so much as the user.
 
A file and a carbide scrapper do not work the same, if you like the edges then that's fine but why defend it so hard when you know it is a horrid way to sharpen a knife?

Would you like to see comparison pictures of file and carbide edges? I really don't want to put that much work into showing the difference or explaining why but I can if you really want.
 
These people do not buy a lot of knives. They do not buy expensive knives. They get the cheapest thing they can find to accomplish their task.

They aren't going to spend $300 on an Edge Pro to sharpen a $5 kitchen knife.

I agree with what you are saying.

The funny thing is that now I would be confident sharpening kitchen knives with nothing more than a mouse mat an some wet'n'dry sandpaper costing half as much as one of these carbide scrapers. I think that the $300 sharpeners are way more than what is needed - I bought a DMT Aligner for $46 that will put a very nice edge on a knife, a belt sander with a bunch of belts can be bought for well under $100 for a powered convex sharpener.

My most used sharpener is a home-made combination of these items:
- a piece of wood that cost well under $1
- some contact adhesive (less than $1 worth)
- a piece of a broken leather belt (which cost me nothing)
- some green polishing compound (less than $1 worth)
The total cost of this tool would be under $2.50 and it has been used a LOT!
This is enough to handle the job of sharpening my knives over 95% of the time, I only need the sandpaper for the first sharpen (and not always then, depends on the knife) or for major repairs (Which most of my knives never need). For smaller blades & softer steel this is the only sharpener I need - SAKs & Leatherman tools and my Victorinox paring knives are good examples.
 
Hmmm... I would disagree. Having seen some file sharpened knives, they look just as ugly, or worse, than a pull-through carbide sharpener. A carbide bit is really the same thing as a file in this case.

If you are curious, you can find carbide sharpeners that are not simple preset angle pull-through types. These are freehand sharpeners, just like a file, but usually more compact. The ones I've seen seem marketed for in-the-field garden tool use. They do a great job with the right steel.




What you say isn't wrong. But having again seen knives used and sharpened for decades with pull-through sharpeners with lots of life left, the fact of shortening the life of a blade becomes more an academic point than a practical one. It's a nice reminder that my beloved knives are not quite as delicate as pressed flowers, even if I sometimes fall into the trap of treating them as though they were. And of course, using stones, or any other sharpening medium will do just as good a job of shortening the lifespan of a blade just as well as a carbide sharpener. The tool isn't at fault, so much as the user.

Not really, the similarities between the edge left by a file and that by a scraper begin with them being rough and end there. If you take a double-cut, 10" mill bastard to put an edge on a knife blade that's no more than .020" wide, then the teeth of the file themselves at that kind of coarseness will make induvidual contact with the edge instead of grinding it like an abrasive would. If you scale the file down to 6" single-cut, you will get a much finer edge. Still a lot rougher than you would get off of a benchstone though.

The difference between doing that with a single-cut file and getting a rough edge and a carbide scraper and getting a rough edge is that with a single-cut file you've actually removed metal, and grinded the edge away until the two sides met at the apex. What you've done is left a burr at that apex and tore it off, but in terms of the actual edge shape, it will still be there. Once all that burr and rough spot is gone, you're going to be left with a much better edge than that which has been sheared on through a carbide scraper.

So at the end of the day, a hand file may not produce an edge that is much sharper than a carbide scraper ( really depends on the files, I"ve got some #4 swiss needle files I'm sure would do a better job ), the hand file's edge is going to last a lot longer because it's an actual edge. The carbide scraper does nothing but rough up the apex of an edge until the metal goes from a worn, rounded form to sharp and jagged and will cut things. The difference is that once those sharp and jagged teeth where off, your knife is dull again, wear as the knife sharpened by the hand-file will just keep going and going. I would be surprised if it took the average carbide scraper user years to dull a knife sharpened by a hand-file to the point where they would think about pulling it through a carbide scraper, even though the finish result is just as good. The real difference is between cutting with a real edge and cutting with a burr left by shearing.

Shearing metal off is not the same as abrading it. The main difference with it is that you have one active metal cutting surface that is supposed to accurately and finely shape another, and that kind of operation just doesn't work out too well without a lot of extra control. There are machines that cut metal by shearing it ( I operated one for a week or so ) and you have to be careful of how much engagement the piece has, the speed of the shearing motion, the pressure, angle of attack, etc. If just one of these things is off, the shear won't cut evenly, will leave bit striations, etc. Translate that kind of finicky operating on to the carbide V in a pull-through sharpener and it's no surprise to me that the edges would come out with ugly striations and big chunks ripped out, because that's what happens when shearing metal goes bad. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who invented the carbide scraper was a machinist that had cut himself on a few too many sheared pieces.

I like the idea of a pull-through sharpener, I just don't agree with most of the way they're made. I've seen a lot of them with Arkansas stone wheels instead of carbide Vs that I liked; or even the ones with ceramic rods are okay. Carbide scrapers just shouldn't be part of the formula though. It's not "sharpening" anything, and really it's no different then running two knife edge's together until they're roughed up enough to cut something.

I think if these pull-through sharpeners would replace the carbide shears with diamond rod on one end, and ceramic on the other, it would do everyone a favor. I'm not saying that they would get edges as good as everyone else is since the technique is inherently substandard, but it will be a lot better than people tearing up their knives with carbide scrapers.
 
so basically, do they work? yes, they will give you a servicable,usable edge. are they good for your blade? hell no. can you use them to establish a starting bevel for "correctly" sharpening a badly abused blade? absolutly. but rember that they are a "band-aid "for certain situations and not to be used if you care about your blades. but in a pinch......
 
A file and a carbide scrapper do not work the same, if you like the edges then that's fine but why defend it so hard when you know it is a horrid way to sharpen a knife?

Would you like to see comparison pictures of file and carbide edges? I really don't want to put that much work into showing the difference or explaining why but I can if you really want.


Definately not defending the carbide sharpener here, although I suppose its better than nothing at all... Maybe. In any case, I would definately love to look at some pics of the difference, although I really doubt its worth the trouble.
 
Tomorrow is my day off so I'll see what I can do. You could start by looking at the pics in the link I posted earlier in this thread.
 
I have used the Smith "Pocket Pal" that I picked up in the PX over here in Afghanistan. I don't use the carbide side, but it has a ceramic stage as well as the tapered diamond rod. I can take a dull knife and put a decent working edge on it fairly quick. Are the edges what I put on my knives when I have the right equipment? No, but they are more useful than a dull edge in the field. I think Benchmade could have done much better by putting ceramic instead of carbide, or at least putting ceramic stones in alongside the carbide one, like the Smith version.

PP1.jpg
 
I've seen several ceramic pull throughs. Haven't tested any of them yet. :confused:
 
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