Dog attack, bear spray

C

candlelight001

Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
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Ok folks, need some real world advice here. Hope this isn't too off topic, but I think it fits under survival.

Walking my dog (45 lb, australian shepherd/cattle dog mix) around the neighborhood, passed a yard with two rotweilers and what looked like a chow/pit mix, low fence. Chow/pit immediately jumped over fence and came at us. My dog turned, I pulled him behind me with leash. Chow/pit came at my dog's butt. I shouted at it, "go home," tried to keep my dog behind me. Owners called their dog back, he half went back, we kept walking, he went back all the way.

Data points about me to factor into the equation: I'm relatively new to dogs, not self-defense or fighting oriented (hence not posting in practical tactical). My dog is fairly fearful, barks at other dogs, but out of insecurity I'm told.

This incident was resolved relatively smoothly, but scary, and could've been worse.

Just bought a medium sized can of bear spray on sale at REI, thinking maybe I should carry it for dogs? Works for a griz, works on a pit? Or is the biology different?

Anything I could've done differently? Would the dynamic have been different if I had two dogs? (Been thinking on getting another anyway). One thing that was interesting is the chow/pit seemed interested in my dog, not me. People really beat their dogs around here, I wonder if feigning to do so would've scared the dog or agitated it?

Thanks for any advice you can provide.
 
This topic has been brought up a few times and usually a big, heavy stick seems to work well.

Good luck and stay safe.
 
I'd be on the cell phone to animal control and have it recorded as an attack against you and your dog. This way it's on file should you need to harm any of the other dogs. That dog owner needs to understand the law better, and should either secure his dogs or install a much higher fence. If I was the one walking the dog in this situation there'd be one dead dog and one on a leash, end of story. What's to say a child riding by on a bike does' nt instigate the dog to do the same and mauls the child? I gave up granola crunching long ago, right about the time a german shepard did just that to me when I was a kid. 40 yrs later and all I see is that dog knocking me off my bike....
 
I'm not expert, but I've found if you're prepared to movetoward the aggressive dog, with control and without fear or panic and with determination (maybe confidence is a better word) - and not on his turf, they often back down. YMMV. I don't know about pepper spray.

Jordan
 
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Beating a dog (or pretending to) is a double edged sword.
It can install a fear instinct that the dog will give it too whenever a hand is raised.. or a fight reaction just as easily.

Get the spray and next time, splash that puppy in the face with some OC.
It will definitely get his attention focused in another direction. :D
 
1) You did good. How do I know? You and your dog walked away unharmed. The situation may have been a surprise to you, but you didn't panic and you didn't lose control.

2) A big stick is an excellent weapon against a dog, not so much against two or three, though. Once you use a weapon, you have other problems. Who knows what frame of mind the owner would be in, watching you beating his dog? Why is the dog aggressive in the first place? Because the owner is ...

But beating the dog beats getting mauled.

3) Pepper spray should work like a charm. Nice if you have a stick to back it up, also. Let me see ... your dog on a leash, a stick in the other hand, pepper spray ... ah, just ran out of hands. :)

4) When it's over, calm down, call the police or animal control and report it. Yours may be the report that puts that household over the local limit for complaints. Or it begins the paper trail so the next time doesn't look like a one-off aberration.
 
Good reasons to report. Been agonizing over it a bit as I don't really want to start a neighborhood feud, or get retaliated against. But it's about 9 blocks away, a street I rarely go on, and I doubt they got a great look at me. Will drive over and get address later.
 
1Tracker said:
I'd be on the cell phone to animal control and have it recorded as an attack against you and your dog. This way it's on file should you need to harm any of the other dogs. That dog owner needs to understand the law better, and should either secure his dogs or install a much higher fence. If I was the one walking the dog in this situation there'd be one dead dog and one on a leash, end of story. What's to say a child riding by on a bike does' nt instigate the dog to do the same and mauls the child? I gave up granola crunching long ago, right about the time a german shepard did just that to me when I was a kid. 40 yrs later and all I see is that dog knocking me off my bike....
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This reminds me of a story about my high school math teacher. He was a pretty scary guy. Korean war vet; paratrooper, etc. His neighbor's boxer bit his five year-old daughter. He told them they had to control the dog or he would. Then the dog jumped the fence and bit his daughter again on the face.

So, he went inside an grabbed a .32 auto and shot the dog. Us students said "well didn't the owner do anything?". He said "yeah, after the first shot, she came running out the door screaming. By the fifth or sixth shot, she was running back inside screaming". We said "what about the husband?!"
"He was a wimp", said the teacher. Teach got charged with discharging a firearm within city limits - no big deal at that time - apparently. Anyhoo...

Jordan
 
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I've owned dogs in past years, all well behaved, leashed in public places, obedience trained. If there's one thing I can't stand are irresponsible dog OWNERS, it's not the dogs fault it's allowed to be a punk, it's the owner's failure to control their animal. If darwinism was real we'd be able to euthanize the bad owners and adopt the dogs!
 
The only problem with pepper spray that I could see is if you spray it and the wind is blowing back at you, you and your dog will get it instead of the attacking dog. This could leave you even more defenceless. But it's better than having nothing.
 
Walking through a dark school yard one night i noticed a white thing that was out of place. Irealized it was a dog when it started to charge me. That night was pumpkin carving night at cadets and so i had a steak knife in my back pocket. I pulled it out and started yelling and advancing on the dog. It stayed back and i just kept yellng and cursing the owner till he got ahold of it. Lesson learned: show your dominance and make sure the dog knows it. also, EDC
 
candlelight001 said:
Good reasons to report. Been agonizing over it a bit as I don't really want to start a neighborhood feud, or get retaliated against. But it's about 9 blocks away, a street I rarely go on, and I doubt they got a great look at me. Will drive over and get address later.
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As I get older, I find I want to look for ways to keep from having confrontations. In the old days, we settled out differences face to face, eye to eye. If you have some gang banger or wannabe out there with his dogs, he might look you up if you do something to his dogs, even if he was in the wrong. Nothing like the sound of gunfire, breaking glass and squealing tires from a wannabe gangster....

If the owner/dog in question is 9 blocks away and you rarely go there anyway, why start now? I know it's a free country, they were in the wrong, your civil rights are being violated, blah, blah, blah.

Make your report to the police so they can start a file. Here, complaints lodged of a dog being loose and they pick them up. Three complaints of attacks (if proven) and the dog is put down. Get the ball rolling there.

Get your bear spray and put it on your belt. No muss, no fuss. You're ready.

Walk your dog on another street. If you hose that dog with pepper spray on a street the dog doesn't live on, you shouldn't have any problems. If that isn't your favorite street anyway, why make this an issue?

It would be a small consolation for you to make sure you were in the right, you were exercising your civil rights, and you weren't doing anything wrong, and it wasn't your fault at all in anyone's eyes if you or your dog were really torn up. And a dog fight is ugly. They literally tear each other to pieces. I mean literally.

Many years ago, my old German Shepherd went to work with me every day as a house framer. I played with him really hard, exercised (a lot of rough wrestling) him really hard, and that kept him pretty content. But also, it kept him in excellent shape. He stayed chained to the truck most of the time or on the leash.

A fellow framer's "bad ass" Dobie/Rott mix that ALWAYS ran free around the job sites attacked my dog right in front of me. He was barreling at me and my dog at full speed when I saw him coming from about a half a block away. I knew I couldn't stop that big dog, so I clicked off the leash of mine and let him go. I thought my dog was a goner for sure, and I would have to shoot that other asshole's dog, and maybe him next.

But my dog shredded him. It only took a few seconds. My dog bit through (and broke) his front leg, bit through his tongue, opened up his face, tore open his one of his rear legs and sliced open up his belly. When I was finally able to pull my dog off without getting chewed up myself, he had the other dog's throat in his jaws. That other dog was bleeding like a fountain, and that made my dog pause. But it was already too late for the other dog. He died on the way to the vet. My dog had one place on his head about the size of a nickel where his skull was exposed, and one ear was bitten all the way through.

The whole episode took just about 20 seconds or so....

About 20 years ago my Dad's dog got mauled by another dog, and that poor fellow was never the same till the day he died. After he was torn up (very badly, a couple of days in the hospital) and he was the most timid and scared thing you can imagine after healing up. Not to mention the emergency vet bills were enormous, and all the while they thought he was going to die.

I wouldn't think any amount of self righteousness would be worth seeing your animal ripped up by a meaner, better fighter. It happens fast, and there are no "overs". Not to mention he could get you both.

Just my 0.02.

Robert
 
Hi, it sounds like our dogs are similar in the way that they are agitated and afraid around other dogs. Mine wasn't socialized when he was young before I rescued him. I have reason to believe he was also beaten, or something as he is very afraid of people too, especially if they hold their hand out to him or bend down and talk to him.
Either way other dogs off of their leash is our main problem. With training and confidence on my part learning to ignore other dogs and people - but it's quite a large task.
Anyway only one time was my dog in a bit of a scuff with another dog. Whilst we were on a walk, some random dog came over the hill with no owner in sight and went straight to attack my dog Buckley. The point of all this is that it made me go find out what to do in such a situation, I felt a bit helpless you see. I think in a panic I kicked the other dog and pulled mine away - which wasn't the best way to handle the situation, but it kind of worked.

I was told that if your dog is in a fight with another dog, go round behind the unknown dog and pick up his back legs. It will quickly subdue it as it will be completely helpless so you can tell your dog to sit down or whatever.

If you are out on your own (with no dog) and a dog comes up to you barking and being aggressive, if you turn your side or back to him, or completely ignore him with no eye contact, unless he has been trained to attack he will also completely back down. That's what a trainer told me and in my experience has worked a charm - 100% effective to date.

Just something to keep in mind in case the worst should happen.

Edit: I believe the worst thing to do would be to show your dominance to a strange and aggressive dog, it's quite possible they will take it as a challenge which is a bad thing.
 
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I used to work at a club beside a company that used german shepards as guard dogs. On several occasions the dogs got loose and would harrass and attack the partons outside the club. It got so bad that we began to keep bear mace at the front till. I sprayed a few of the dogs and it taught me a few things. Most bear mace canisters have a range of about 30 ft and puts out a much larger volume of OC. In an urban enviroment that is overkill and provides a much larger chance of contamination of unintended targets. It is also bigger and attracks unwanted attention. OC sold in "dog" sized canisters only has a range of 10 - 15 ft and is better suited for an urban enviroment, smaller and when the police get involved you can say it was for ferrel amimals, especially if it states it is for use on dogs.
A good sized stick is also a good choice. I found it best to aim for the top of the shoulder blade first, you want to wound the dog but allow it a chance to retreat. If the dog doesnt retreat you can use the first impact to prove you did not resort to lethal force immediately. Believe it or not the use of force continuim can apply to dogs as well if the owner trieds to take you to court. If the dog comes back for a second round aim for the head and put it down hard. Make the strike count as you may only get one shot in before you get bit.
After any encounter with an agressive dog you should immediately contact animal control or the police to report the incident so you will have a paper trail to prove it was self defence.
 
c00per said:
I was told that if your dog is in a fight with another dog, go round behind the unknown dog and pick up his back legs. It will quickly subdue it as it will be completely helpless so you can tell your dog to sit down or whatever.
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I have seen many a dog fight. I cannot imagine how one would sneak behind a dog and lift his legs up. It defies my imagination. In my younger years we all had big dogs, and when all dogs are young and aggressive they are just plain fast. I have been bitten more than once trying to break up a fight.

Unless they are simple little house dogs, I have never seen anyone break up a dog fight. One dog either runs away, or is too injured to keep fighting. House dogs may be different. 150 - 160 pounds of fighting mad dogs that are trying to kill each other is nothing to take lightly.

I wouldn't consider trying to raise the back legs of a full sized Shepherd, a Dobie or a Rott while they were in a fighting rage. Then even more silliness, thinking that my Shepherd would recognize that "the right thing to do" would be to follow my instructions to stop fighting and sit down because the other dog was partially immobilized... all the while he himself in a screaming rage... I think someone was pulling your leg.

My own dog tore open my arm when I was trying to get him out of a fight one time. He didn't care who or what he bit, anything he could get his jaws around got it.

Edit: I believe the worst thing to do would be to show your dominance to a strange and aggressive dog, it's quite possible they will take it as a challenge which is a bad thing.
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THAT I certainly agree with. I think it is important to stand your ground, but not give an aggressive dog any reason to attack. If they sense they are being threatened, an aggressive dog (like my old hound!) would attack. All aggressive behavior did to him was amp him up even more.

If you stood your ground and made no threatening gestures, you would generally be fine. After all, in the end he was just a dog, and he would lose interest.

But I got him from a shelter where they told me he was a badly abused dog. He had been beaten a lot. He wasn't the kind of dog that became cowed and timid. He went completely the other way.

He was completely and entirely unafraid of a threatening person, and took it in his head HE was being attacked when someone made any kind of threatening gesture towards him or me. He responded to the "threat" in a nano second.

When he was pissed off (not raging, just pissed) you couldn't even pat him on the head as the movement of your hand over his head would make him snap at you.

Threatening behavior to a mean ass dog = not wise.

Robert
 
One thing to keep in mind if you have an aggressive dog, is to NEVER put up a BEWARE OF DOG sign. My lawyer told me that what you have done is openly admit you knew your dog was dangerous when you put up that sign.

He said if something bad happened and your dog attacked someone, you can always say "HE NEVER DID THAT BEFORE", but with that sign up, you are screwed.

You have to try to protect yourself if by chance your dog is not that friendly, manages to get out, and does attack someone. At that point it is limiting your loss. You may lose your dog but hopefully not much more than medical expenses.

By the way, my dogs love everyone and I never had a sign like that up. My brother did though.
 
if i were you id report the incident to animal control and tell the owner of the house that he had better raise his fence. in any case, I'd avoid the house as next time you might not get off so lucky. Bear spray should work but who knows if it will really stop a dog on a mission (you can shoot a human a few times and if you don't hit any major organs, they can still keep comming and kill you...).

Btw: who's to say that dog wont jump the fence and maul a kid?
 
If you don't do anything else, you need to report the incident to animal control. As stated above it starts the legal paper trail and depending on your county, it may start or add to the count down for the dog being impounded or put down.

Decades ago, I threw a newspaper route that included an apartment complex. I walked through the complex every morning (wee hour dark-thirty) with the classic double sided newspaper boy bag and delivered papers to the apartment doors. Long story short was that a LEO lived there with his K9 Shepherd that he was letting out on its own for morning bathroom chores. The dog got progressively more and more aggressive with me over a period of a week or so, so I started with a series of complaints to the apartment complex management. That didn't work so I went to animal control, filed an official complaint, and personally explained what was going on. Animal Control took it very seriously since the dog was a police dog. Never saw the dog again.
 
1Tracker said:
I'd be on the cell phone to animal control and have it recorded as an attack against you and your dog. This way it's on file should you need to harm any of the other dogs. That dog owner needs to understand the law better, and should either secure his dogs or install a much higher fence. If I was the one walking the dog in this situation there'd be one dead dog and one on a leash, end of story. What's to say a child riding by on a bike does' nt instigate the dog to do the same and mauls the child? I gave up granola crunching long ago, right about the time a german shepard did just that to me when I was a kid. 40 yrs later and all I see is that dog knocking me off my bike....
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Very good advice.


Something similar happened to me on three seperate equations.

Scenario 1:
I was walking my dog alone when we passed a house where there was a 125lb boxer and large black lab and some yap yap dog in the front yard. When they saw me and my dog walking they all came running over. I didn't perceive it as being aggressive. The boxer picked up steam and ran into the side of my 90lb lab. The boxer bit my dog's side putting a fair sized hole in the side of my dog. I don't think the boxer was biting out of aggression and it was more of an exaggerated "mouthing". The owners were very apologetic and promptly paid for all vet bills.
No police or animal control interatction here.

Scenario 2:
My, at the time, 8 month pregnant wife was walking our dog past a different house when this OLD German Shep. Dog came walking from the front yard into the street. My wife yelled to the owner to get her dog as it is in street. The owner paid no attention. The GSD then began to grown and show its teeth at which time my became a bit more animated yelling at the dog and the owner to try and get some action from either. The GSD came at my dogs rear to bit and my wife kicked the dog in the face. The dog retreated. At this time the owner came into the street grabbed the dog and proceded to yell at my wife in very colorful language making no attempt to take any repsonsiblity.
This scenarion eneded in a full police report as these neighbors have caused quite a stir with other neighbors for a myriad of reasons.

Scenario 3:
Walking my dog somewhere else and a boxer came running after us. I yelled at it to "Git" :) It turned and ran with it's tail between it's legs. No harm no foul.

I agree with Tracker in that reporting this incident is one of the best ways to handle this in a reactive manner. What happens when it's a 5 year old child that is walking by the house and gets mauled?

I carry peppar spray but it would be last resort to use it on a dog since I wouldn't want to hit my dog with the spray and run the risk of my dog biting me since she'll be completly disoriented. Yelling and swift kick would be my first route. Oh and I guess a knife is an option as well.

I only covered 3 scenarios - but I've had many a run in with dogs and I've usually come out on the winning end.
 
all points here are good. Bear spray will work on just about just about any mammal God made with a nose and eyes...just make sure it is legal where you are..often when walking in dangerous country I'll take along a mail bag full of adopted baby kittens..when attacked I'll dump them on the ground as a distraction so I can escape. in all honest baby rabbits or midgets might work too.
 
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