Dog attack, bear spray

There is a potential tradeoff with using the Bear Spray...I'd suggest FOX 5.2 SHU which is the best OC on the market for two legged and little four legged "man's best friend"..I'd go with the Cone pattern as it is the best compromise between stream and fogger. I'd also pick up some Suedicon wipes and carry them with you as well. The reality is YOU will get some of the spray on you and the wipes will cut the burn down from 45 minutes to 15-20 minutes and get your eyes open much sooner.

Bear spray is overkill for dogs and keep in mind you mostly likely will get some secondary contaimination from that stuff -unless the wind is perfectly quiet and you've got all the stars and the moon is perfectly aligned on that day.

So knowing you're probably going to get some spray on you - the FOX is a better alternative than recieving some of your own bear spray. If you're concerned about bears - get the bear spray....for dogs and humans - FOX is more than sufficient.
 
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midnight flyer said:
I have seen many a dog fight. I cannot imagine how one would sneak behind a dog and lift his legs up. It defies my imagination. In my younger years we all had big dogs, and when all dogs are young and aggressive they are just plain fast. I have been bitten more than once trying to break up a fight.

Unless they are simple little house dogs, I have never seen anyone break up a dog fight. One dog either runs away, or is too injured to keep fighting. House dogs may be different. 150 - 160 pounds of fighting mad dogs that are trying to kill each other is nothing to take lightly.

I wouldn't consider trying to raise the back legs of a full sized Shepherd, a Dobie or a Rott while they were in a fighting rage. Then even more silliness, thinking that my Shepherd would recognize that "the right thing to do" would be to follow my instructions to stop fighting and sit down because the other dog was partially immobilized... all the while he himself in a screaming rage... I think someone was pulling your leg.

My own dog tore open my arm when I was trying to get him out of a fight one time. He didn't care who or what he bit, anything he could get his jaws around got it.
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That makes sense. It's probably a situational thing, in some situations I see raising the back legs of the dog to be perfectly do-able and it has worked before, but in a lot (probably most) situations, might not be practical. :)
 
There is a lot of good information here. Situational awareness is probably one of the most important things to keep in mind.

Be vigilant on your walk. Enjoy the time you are spending with your pet, but be aware of your surroundings and what's around you. As you are walking with your dog, always plan for the worst case scenario. What if a dog charges us from the front? The back? More than one dog? Do I have avenues of escape? Where are they? Have at the least the most rudimentary plan in your head for that 'worst case scenario'. That way, if something does happen, you have a starting point to work from.

Another thing to consider is that not all dogs behave the same. Yes, by nature dogs have certain common traits and characteristics that can be understood and exploited to your advantage. Dogs are by nature pack animals, so in certain circumstances a pack mentality can be followed and utilized to prevent an attack.

But this fails to take into account what I'll refer to as the 'human factor'. This is the part of the equation where you have to think about the human's role in the dogs development. Was/ Is this dog owned by an abusive owner who beats it constantly and starves it? Was the dog trained to fight or be a guard dog? This is, generally, the unknown. And it is this unknown that could get you into trouble.

If you posture up and present yourself in an aggressive, threatening manner towards a dog that has been trained as a guard/ attack dog or even one trained to fight other animals, that dog may see this as an indicator of you wanting to fight. In this circumstance, you may have triggered the response you were trying to avoid.

Dogs have many drives. Key amongst these for the purposes of this discussion are prey, fight, and hunt. Prey drive is the desire to bite and kill. Fight drive is the dog's desire to measure itself against and dominate another. Hunt drive is the desire to chase down it's prey.

As you can see, all three work in unison with each other. All exist in some form, along with the other drives, in all dogs. Each dog has varying levels of each drive, which help in determining it's individual disposition. All of these drives can be enhanced or diminished, but they can never be fully gotten rid of.

Sorry for drifting off onto canine psychology/ behavior 101, but I think it is important to understand the basic psychology behind why a dog acts the way he does. The more knowledge you have about your enemy, in this case the vicious dog, the better prepared you will be.

To specifically talk about your situation, who knows what set the other dog off? Maybe your dog made eye contact and was carrying himself in a dominant sort of way that the other dog took as a challenge? I'm not for a second condoning anything the other dog did or the fact that the owner needs to properly confine his animals. But, in the animal world, certain aspects of body language, eye contact, and movement could cause an attack to occur. Again, awareness and knowledge are key.

I hope some of this helps.
 
I deal with this sort of thing on a daily basis, I read meters for the city I live in. Well, not really a city, it's a town of about 4,000.
The things I've learned:
Most people are morons who can't/won't control their dogs.
Most dogs back down when you stand your ground.
Some dogs don't back down when you stand your ground. This is where a nice kick in the face helps, even better is pepper spray.
Dogs act totally differently on any given day. Some dogs are more aggressive when their masters are at home, some are more aggressive when their masters are away.
Some dogs could give a whit less about you but they want to kill your dog if you happen to be walking near them. These dogs are usually (not always) trained to do this because they are fighting dogs. They are usually a familiar fighting dog breed. ie. pitbull.
Not all pitbulls are bad, but the majority are trained to be aggressive.
It's nearly impossible to choke a pitbull unconscious. I've had to do it after one attacked my dog, in my yard no less. I've put rear naked chokes on people before , several times , with the same results ie. they tap out or pass out. Not a pitbull. I don't if it's because their necks are so much smaller and stronger. Again I recommend pepper spray or a .22.
Imo, your best bet is pepper spray. Or if you live in a rural area, a .22 pistol does nicely. I have no remorse for killing a dog that is aggressive toward people, if you don't stop the dog or report the dog it may hurt a child. That's something to think about imo.
Later,
Iz
 
Hey folks,
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion! Many different useful points in there.

Upon reflection, one of the key points to me is that the incident could have been a disaster, but wasn't. I think that's an important thing to keep in mind for future scenarios.

Not to have a naive, "all's well that ends well" feeling, but to remember that there are multiple different ways it could go, even once it's started, thus one should not panic, but keep trying to influence the outcome.

Also, I heard a few folks say that bear spray is overkill, and could end up blowing back in my face. One of my cans is on the edge of expiration, I think I'm gonna go discharge it and get a read on the spray pattern. Will let you all know.

Setting aside the question of volume, does anyone think pepper/bear spray would NOT work?

Thanks!
 
candlelight001 said:
Setting aside the question of volume, does anyone think pepper/bear spray would NOT work?
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While no system is foolproof, pepper spray is effective against dogs. The size, distance, environmental factors, and anger level of the dog may enter into how fast it will take effect, so don't expect to just stand there and wait for it to work. But it will.
 
My mailamn is a cool guy and we test sprayed his Halt pepper spray for dogs the other day. I told him it seemed to be pretty effective range-wise at about 10ft. Not having the desire to feel the effects we just sprayed it towards/on my steel birdfeeder pole, since a boar raccoon keeps having a go at it. Seemed to be keeping the coon away until it rained hard.
 
candlelight001 said:
Hey folks,
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion! Many different useful points in there.

Upon reflection, one of the key points to me is that the incident could have been a disaster, but wasn't. I think that's an important thing to keep in mind for future scenarios.

Not to have a naive, "all's well that ends well" feeling, but to remember that there are multiple different ways it could go, even once it's started, thus one should not panic, but keep trying to influence the outcome.

Also, I heard a few folks say that bear spray is overkill, and could end up blowing back in my face. One of my cans is on the edge of expiration, I think I'm gonna go discharge it and get a read on the spray pattern. Will let you all know.

Setting aside the question of volume, does anyone think pepper/bear spray would NOT work?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

As some folks have offered, pepper spray, bear spray (simply a higher concentration of the burning stuff), etc. all work fine on dogs. Getting it on you when you use it should not be a concern. Don't spray it directly into the wind--only thoughtless people who don't know what they're doing do that. If you have allergies or are asthmatic, it might impact you more than the average person if you get around it, it might not. Don't leave it in your car on a hot day because you will not like the results. Most of this is common sense really.

Most of the stuff has a "claimed" 2 year expiration from date of manufacture. That is NOT because the chemical is less effective after that time; it is because that is about how long the manufacturer can guarantee that you will have propellant in the can to actually spray something. The rubber seals will leak over time and that is the reason (well, and $) for the short life. However, I have seen cans go 5-7 years and be ok, I've also seen them pretty much dead after 2 years. Shelf-life varies between cans even from the same manufacturer.

Finally, the proper way to dispose of a can of OC spray is to hold it upside down in a bucket of water (under water!) and discharge it. If you decide that you just want to spray it into the air to see if it still works, keep in mind that any discharge of the spray even for a short burst means the next discharge will have a little less "oomph" pushing the chemical. In other words, generally speaking, it is NOT a good idea to test it to see if there is propellant by spraying it, deciding that it does spray fine, and then deciding you will just keep it and use it at some point in the future. If you spray it, go get a new can and save yourself the disappointment you might experience when it doesn't work quite the way you need it to when you need it most.

Good luck.
 
candlelight001 said:
Hey folks,
One of my cans is on the edge of expiration, I think I'm gonna go discharge it and get a read on the spray pattern. Will let you all know.

Setting aside the question of volume, does anyone think pepper/bear spray would NOT work?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

You should always test fire a cansister at least once( in a safe place & dierection) when you get, you dont want to find out that it doest work when you need it. It will also expose you to the OC so you know what to expect.You should also get into the habbit of shaking the canister every few months to prevent it from seperating and clogging the nozzel.

You should not rely on the OC working 100% of the time. If the animal is trapped and has been sprayed it could respond more agressively in order to escape. Fight or flight. If the animal doesnt have the option if flight it will fight so keep that in mind.
 
FWIW...I was involved in an experiment recently when we intentionally shot a MMA fighter (who wanted to be sprayed) with FOX 5.2 SHU that EXPIRED 5 years ago. This guy wanted to know the effects of FOX. So we sprayed him and within 7 seconds he was begging for water.

Lessons learned: Even after expiring five years ago and the spray was left in car with extreme hot/cold temp swings (not recommended) it still works! Also the guy burned for up to 48 minutes and refused the Suedecon wipes - he wanted the full ride! Those of us who were in the general area all got cross/secondary contaimination. We used the wipes and recovered quickly. The wind was variable and light. We went between some cars and a building to mitigate the winds - it didn't matter we breathed and got some in the face. It almost always happens that way when I'm around this stuff.

It sounds like no matter what we suggest you're going with the bear spray. It will work - but it is way overkill. Standard LEO grade OC will work just fine too. You have a 75% chance of getting some spray on you no matter what you do - under stress and under a dog attack you're not going to know or even care what direction the wind is blowing and you're not going to stop to transition to another method of stopping the dog on a windy day. You'll deply your bear spray and use it! That is what we do under stress! Expect it.
 
I was attacked by a large St. Bernard when I was younger (20+ years ago). I was leaned up against the outside fence on that property talking with the owner, sitting on my mountain bike when it happened. Owner kept telling the dog "no" up until the attack. Now when people tell me that their dog doesn't bit, I am less convinced.

I was walking with my son strapped into a three wheel jogger stroller last week and a dog came charging out of a yard right at us. We were on the other side of the street (typical suburbia street). I had my Surefire light with me set to pulse/strobe and turned it on the dog and started yelling at it to go home. The owner slowly walked from behind the house and started calling their dog. They were also assuring me that their dog doesn't bite. It was twenty feet from my son (not headed at me) when it stopped. I was ready by that point to do what had to be done. It would have been ugly no doubt.

I have made adjustments to my "pre-walk/stroll" gear up and am much more prepared. I will check out some spray. I think that's an interesting idea.
 
Quirt said:
It sounds like no matter what we suggest you're going with the bear spray. It will work - but it is way overkill. Standard LEO grade OC will work just fine too.
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I think y'all have convinced me to ditch the bear spray in favor of some Fox stuff. I have some bottles of Sabre Red lying around, but they're almost expired too, and I've always wondered if they're legit.

Among other things, it's a little awkward to go walking around with 290 gram can of bearspray on you.

This thread also got me thinking that if I were to ever use the spray on an intruder inside the home, we'd probably all be covered in it.
 
Check out Cabelas they sell 3 packs of Bear, dog, and anti 2 legged bastard spray in a single pack with carry holsters for like $50. Now you're fully equipped to jog the kid in the stroller, walk your dog, or walk to work and home safely. No need to bug the cops for a simple perp threat, let's let them work on the bigger stuff and let us have some of the fun too!
 
ChapmanPreferred said:
Now when people tell me that their dog doesn't bit, I am less convinced.
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Dog owners all get a little wallet card. One side says, "It's all right, he's friendly, he won't bite you," and the other side says, "I don't know why he did that, he never bit anyone before."

When people asked if my Boxer would bite them, I always said, "That's what those teeth are for," and they stepped back. I always leashed him on the street.
 
candlelight001 said:
I think y'all have convinced me to ditch the bear spray in favor of some Fox stuff. I have some bottles of Sabre Red lying around, but they're almost expired too, and I've always wondered if they're legit.

Among other things, it's a little awkward to go walking around with 290 gram can of bearspray on you.

This thread also got me thinking that if I were to ever use the spray on an intruder inside the home, we'd probably all be covered in it.
Click to expand...

Ditch the Sabre and get some new stuff. For $15-20 it is cheap insurance. Why rely on something that "who knows will work or not!" Generally it is the propellant that leaks that causes the problems especially once it is past the expiration date. I work with this stuff professionally on a regular basis so fire me a PM if you need further assistance.

Also get a bunch of Suedicon and distribute it to every member of your family! Keep it in the house, car, backpacks, purses etc. Trust me FOX (or any OC) is not fun. I train with this stuff and get tired of being contaiminated with it.

OC isn't the cure-all for everything...inside your home you might consider the C2 Taser and have FOX staged several places throughout your house as a secondary in case the primary Taser didn't work or you couldn't access it. We keep FOX cached throughout the home as a secondary. Typically with home invasions there rarely is any advanced warning and you may be in bed or on the john when something goes down...best to have multiple cans staged conveniently. Also get a home alarm or outside perimeter warning system so you know when people are on your property so you can have an advanced warning. Just a thought.
 
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Esav Benyamin said:
Dog owners all get a little wallet card. One side says, "It's all right, he's friendly, he won't bite you," and the other side says, "I don't know why he did that, he never bit anyone before."

When people asked if my Boxer would bite them, I always said, "That's what those teeth are for," and they stepped back. I always leashed him on the street.
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Great responses that I also use. I never say "yes" to the question "Does she bite?"
 
On a lighter note, does anyone remember the movie conversation between Inspector Clousseau and a shop keeper concerning a dog in the shop? Here's a brief summary:

Clousseau enters shop.

Small dog looks on.

Clousseau asks shop keeper, "Does your dog bite?"

The shop keeper responds, "No, my dog does not bite."

Clousseau reaches out to pet the dog. The dog snarls and bites him on the hand.

Clousseau angrily addresses the shopkeeper, "I thought you said your dog does not bite!"

The shop keeper responds, "That's not my dog."
 
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While Bear Spray will certainly work on keeping the dog away, it has several disadvantages that have already been pointed out. However, I never liked the idea of turning my back on an attacking animal as the alternative.

Instead, living in areas where dogs often ran free, I found that the small pocket airhorns that are used at sporting events or marinas work very very well!! (I'm talking about the ones that have a canister about 3 inches tall and one inch in diameter, with a white airhorn top.) With them, YOU are barking louder than the other dog. That means a lot to the other dog. I have seen dogs that were already jumping at me turn around in mid air and on landing head for under the porch! These horns are LOUD!

The offending dog's owner won't get upset. The wind can't blow it back into your face. The attacking dog will back down immediately. I found a set-up in a bike shop that included a handle bar clip. I put this on my motorcycle and used the horn often to stop dogs from chasing my bike on country roads. Worked every time. Nothing like a power horn to turn you into the Alpha Dog!

Stitchawl
 
Airhorns. That's funny. We used them at college basketball games and it drove the officials crazy. I guess they thought they were the alpha dogs before that. :D
 
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