dont touch that factory edge !!!!

R

richard j

Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
10,080
not until you give it a try. if it is dull then try to match the edge and get it sharp enough to use. i found out that most brand name knives have a good angle already set and will be a good for almost anything you need to cut.

i have been sharpening knives for 38 years and i have had a lot of feedback from people i sharpened knives for. i found out what kind of edge held up the best and stuck with it. i have a knife i made that i can chop down a tree and still shave hair and push cut newspaper.

for an all around edge that will hold up to every day use, a 400 grit abrasive is all the higher you need to go. going higher in grit is a waste of money and time in my opinion.

you can get a knife (that has a burr worked up on an 80 grit abrasive) shaving sharp that will also last if you finish the edge properly after removing the burr. having a knife with an edge as fine as what you would find on a razor blade is a waste since it will roll. it would be like using a straight razor to cut up a bunch of cardboard or cut anything harder than cardboard.
 
Do you have experience with spyderco ceramic stones? Would you say the medium grit brown stone is more than fine enough?
 
richard j said:
having a knife with an edge as fine as what you would find on a razor blade is a waste since it will roll. it would be like using a straight razor to cut up a bunch of cardboard or cut anything harder than cardboard.
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I don't think I'm catching your point. A fine polished edge at a more obtuse angle would roll but will not if the edge was finished on 400grit?

In my mind, sharpness can be increased by lowering the Angle, but can also be enhanced by finishing at a much finer abrasive, is my thinking wrong?
 
It's one thing, to not tinker too much with an edge on a knife that you're sharpening for someone else (who, presumably, doesn't know any better). I can understand, for someone who makes a living as a sharpener of other people's knives, staying somewhat close to the 'factory edge' (whatever that means) is the conservative thing to do in that situation. But, simply telling everyone to 'don't change the factory edge', based on nothing other than personal opinion (even if that opinion is based on many years of 'personal' experience), isn't doing anyone any real good, if they really want to learn about sharpening. The only way for one to really learn is to try out what they believe will work for their own needs, and then make adjustments accordingly over time, based on their experience with that edge.

My personal 'obsession' with sharpening (and hence my name for my account here), over a span of about 20+ years, is based ENTIRELY on the fact that most (but not all) factory edges I came across were, at best, mediocre for my needs. And many were much worse. After I've refined my own skills, and have been able to tweak (& polish) my edges to suit my own needs, I've NEVER, NEVER, NEVER been disappointed with the result. And none of my 'new' edges is anything close to the original 'factory' edge. An edge that's 'good enough' from the factory, for someone who really doesn't care that much about anything more, is fine. But for someone who's in it to really learn something, an edge can often be MUCH better than what the factory offers.

That's my 2 cents' worth.
 
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a toothy edge which is more like a serrated edge will hold up a lot better than an fine edge like a straight razor which would be like a wire edge. k II which is the knife i mentioned above has a burr worked up on a 320 grit belt. i used to work up a burr with a 400 grit belt until i found out the 320 grit worked much better at holding the edge while maintaining the ability to still shave hair and push cut newspaper.

read what brian jones had to say about a chopper i made for him. i used a 320 grit belt to put the edge on it. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609189 post #33.

by using a finer abrasive, you are removing the micro serrations formed by the previous coarser grit leaving a smoother edge which is more prone to dulling. i can put a shaving sharp edge on a knife that i work up a burr on using an 80 grit belt and it will hold an edge a lot better than an edge worked up with a finer edge. test it out for yourself.

i do finish off the knives i sharpen with the paper buffing wheel no matter how i form a burr.

dave, what i am saying is to give the factory edge a try before changing the angle. if they find out the edge they put on is too obtuse or accute compared to the factory edge, they have to change the angle back.
 
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diff_lock2, i never have seen any spyderco stones so i cant tell you anything about them. you will have to ask someone in the spyderco forum that question.
 
richard j said:
dave, what i am saying is to give the factory edge a try before changing the angle. if they find out the edge they put on is too obtuse or accute compared to the factory edge, they have to change the angle back.
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:thumbup:

But isn't that what makes it FUN? ;)

I never learned so much about sharpening, as a whole, until I completely reprofiled one, then a handful, then a whole bunch of knives. Best education on the topic I could've asked for.
 
diff_lock2 said:
Do you have experience with spyderco ceramic stones? Would you say the medium grit brown stone is more than fine enough?
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If you're considering a purchase of a medium (vs. a fine?), you might try out a Spyderco Double Stuff stone. Medium (brown) grit on one side, and Fine (white) on the other side. Whether the medium is fine enough for your needs is entirely up to you.

I have one, and I use the medium side more often. It often follows whatever other means I've used to sharpen (diamond hones, or sandpaper), just before going to the strop. Works very well to clean up light burrs, with just 2 or 3 very light passes over the medium ceramic. Also is nice for putting a little microbevel on an edge, if you want that. The white (fine) side will do much the same for you, and polish the edge a bit more. My rule-of-thumb is for even lighter pressure when using the fine side (I use less pressure, the higher I go in grit).
 
Everyone had different needs in their edges. Some people never cut cardboard, only using their knives for string, some paper, a little cloth or a hanging thread. Others will use theirs to remove insulation from wire, cut wire, cut sheetrock or fiberglass, etc.

Each of these cutting jobs will work best with a different angle of the edge. The factory has no idea what a customer will be using his/her knife for, and so just make a general statement with their finish. They can be safe saying a hunting knife will require a thicker edge than a small pocket folder, but in fact, really don't know what the knife will be used for.

It's up to the individual user to find out what angle will work best for their individual needs. To say that they should not change the factory angle is taking away their chance to improve the service of their knives. Nothing wrong with a little experimentation. It's not as if the edges can't be changed easily.

Stitchawl
 
There is a ton of attention on these boards given to those who can either split hairs or split cinder blocks, and very little given to the best working edge for whatever need may arise. I appreciate the information shared by richardj. Something to think about, and something new to try.
 
stitchawl said:
... and then you wake up, right? :rolleyes:


Stitchawl
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Really? Why don't you just call the man a liar? I really used to love this sub-forum I learned a ton of stuff here, then this little cabal of people who know everything about how to sharpen show up, and turn it into there own little playground. What you all are not understanding is these knives are owned by individuals. Each and every individual get's to decide what they want to do to their own knives. Richard J has helped more people out on this forum than most of you guys will ever meet. Show a little respect for peoples opinions, and for members who have been here and are willing to share.
 
No substitute for respect and good manners. I for one welcome hearing all that is offered about this hobby all that goes with it especially sharpening expertise and opinion.
 
trolls are what ruin a forum. there seems to be a lot of them that hang out in here and dont have anything better to do than post insults and be rude to members.
 
hunter s thompson said:
Really? Why don't you just call the man a liar?
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Because I was trying to be polite. If you really believe that someone can chop down a tree with a knife, and then still be able to shave with the same edge, I have a bridge to sell you.

I really used to love this sub-forum I learned a ton of stuff here, then this little cabal of people who know everything about how to sharpen show up, and turn it into there own little playground.
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We know enough not to believe in magic knives...

It doesn't take magic to sharpen a knife. Anyone can do it, and most of us do. Those who don't want to take the time to learn how, will always bow down in front of those who can. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Stitchawl
 
stitchawl said:
Because I was trying to be polite. If you really believe that someone can chop down a tree with a knife, and then still be able to shave with the same edge, I have a bridge to sell you.



We know enough not to believe in magic knives...

It doesn't take magic to sharpen a knife. Anyone can do it, and most of us do. Those who don't want to take the time to learn how, will always bow down in front of those who can. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Stitchawl
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I don't think it takes a genius to figure out that he was speaking figuratively with the knife chopping down the tree. Pointing out that tidbit probably wasn't necessary.

Seeking information probably shouldn't be considered "bowing down". Like everyone here, information and learning seems to be the driving motivation regardless of where that information comes from.

I have found Richard's posts quite informative. Of course, I have learned from others that post in here as well, so Richard's posts are not the only ones I read. If I don't like the information he is passing, then I simply ignore it and move on. I have a hard time understanding why others miss this simple concept, especially when they see who the OP is. This kind of behavior could give the impression to others that you have no more to offer than veiled insults.



Anyway- I have never said this here, but I appreciate the information that I always get from this particular subforum.


Bill
 
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richard j said:
not until you give it a try. if it is dull then try to match the edge and get it sharp enough to use. i found out that most brand name knives have a good angle already set and will be a good for almost anything you need to cut.

I've never seen a factory edge that was sharper than what I can get it. Generally the only knives that are sharp enough for me to really use before a proper sharpening (I'm a sharpness snob) are spydercos. Even so, with just a little TLC I can get spydercos sharper. As for the factory angle being perfect for the most part on most brand name knives, that's a fallacy. Manufacturers ship out knives with edges more obtuse than is needed because people are idiots and will try and baton their knife through a steel pipe then when it chips complain that the knife is garbage. It's usually a compromise with better knife companies, edge usefulness vs durability, but some manufacturers ship knives out with very obtuse bevels. As for their initial sharpness, these knives are mass produced. Uneven bevels are prevalent, where someone pressed a little too hard against a belt, or didn't quite de-burr the edge by the tip. It happens.

i have been sharpening knives for 38 years and i have had a lot of feedback from people i sharpened knives for. i found out what kind of edge held up the best and stuck with it. i have a knife i made that i can chop down a tree and still shave hair and push cut newspaper.

I have been sharpening knives for only a few years and I know what works. Show me a video of you chopping down a normal size tree (not brush) and then shaving with the part of the edge that was used for chopping then PUSH CUT newspaper and I'll be impressed. By push cut, I don't mean hold the knife at an angle to the paper, I mean with the knife entirely perpendicular to the paper. That's a paper push cut. No slicing. I have busses I've convexed and given very high polished edges that can chop down trees with no problem, and will still cut very well after and even pick up some hairs off my arm in some spots, but not with the entire edge, and surely not pushing straight down through newspaper.

for an all around edge that will hold up to every day use, a 400 grit abrasive is all the higher you need to go. going higher in grit is a waste of money and time in my opinion.

Thankfully that's your opinion, but I find an edge with a very high polish not only lasts much longer but also is better for almost all tasks I use a knife for. Yes, that includes wilderness use with heavy choppers.

you can get a knife (that has a burr worked up on an 80 grit abrasive) shaving sharp that will also last if you finish the edge properly after removing the burr.

You realize by "finishing the edge properly" after you remove the bur, the edge is essentially no longer an "80 grit" edge right? Are we on the same page?

having a knife with an edge as fine as what you would find on a razor blade is a waste since it will roll. it would be like using a straight razor to cut up a bunch of cardboard or cut anything harder than cardboard.

Define "fine" please? Are you insinuating again that a highly polished edge will roll simply because it's scratch pattern is tighter than a 400 grit edge? If so, it's time to hang up the only sharpening wheels and call it a day. If by a "fine" edge you mean one ground very thinly, like a straight razor, then yes it can roll but that has nothing to do with polish and all to do with the stability of a finely ground edge apex vs rough materials.
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My responses are in bold. I understand you have found what you think works, because it's what you know how to do. I get it. I also don't understand why you think creating a convex edge and then essentially adding a v microbevel to it with the paper wheels is "the best convex edge ever". This nonsense and disinformation has got to stop. Back when I didn't know how to sharpen when I joined this forum, paper wheels were helpful, and that's all I needed. There's really more out there though than 400 grit. :rolleyes:
 
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richard j said:
a toothy edge which is more like a serrated edge will hold up a lot better than an fine edge like a straight razor which would be like a wire edge.

I'll take a clean cut any day instead of using a micro saw. I hate serrations and they're stable. The micro serrations you talk about fall off



by using a finer abrasive, you are removing the micro serrations formed by the previous coarser grit leaving a smoother edge which is more prone to dulling.

The goal is to remove the micro serrations, refinement is my goal. As for it being more prone to dulling, that's just silly. I've sharened my spyderco gayle bradley ONCE and that was to reprofile it thinner and give it a mirror bevel. I use the knife every single day, i've only stropped it maybe 2 times and it is hair shaving sharp still.

i can put a shaving sharp edge on a knife that i work up a burr on using an 80 grit belt and it will hold an edge a lot better than an edge worked up with a finer edge. test it out for yourself.

i do finish off the knives i sharpen with the paper buffing wheel no matter how i form a burr.

dave, what i am saying is to give the factory edge a try before changing the angle. if they find out the edge they put on is too obtuse or accute compared to the factory edge, they have to change the angle back.
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See bolded
 
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