dont touch that factory edge !!!!

Some on this thread have been simply rude or there is some hidden agenda either way - no excuse.
This is a Hobby Forum last I checked. Group of people that share a common interest with that common interest there will be topics they agree on and some they do not. When there is disagreement it should be fleshed out in civil discord. The discussion should be confined to facts and when opinion inevitably enters the fray it should be respected and so should the person advancing the opinion. Period. Personal attacks serve no one and only discredit the person delivering the insults. Worse, words uttered leave marks and only weaken the fabric which bonds the forum.
I'd ask that in all matters forum or outside that a moment be taken to reflect before the wheels get turning on how now to argue this post. It was not an attack, merely an observation and one meant to redirect and strengthen an otherwise worthy topic discussion.
 
rubiconss said:
I'd ask that in all matters forum or outside that a moment be taken to reflect before the wheels get turning on how now to argue this post. It was not an attack, merely an observation and one meant to redirect and strengthen an otherwise worthy topic discussion.
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Since I can't write as well as you sir. I just copied from your post something that I agree with wholeheartedly.

I am a noobie sharpener and all I know now(sadly lacking), I learned here. This forum has been such a valuable resource for me and it saddens me that we can't discuss this topic(which I am very interested in) without hurtfulness.

Let's take a chill pill gentlemen.
 
richard j said:
not until you give it a try. if it is dull then try to match the edge and get it sharp enough to use. i found out that most brand name knives have a good angle already set and will be a good for almost anything you need to cut.

i have been sharpening knives for 38 years and i have had a lot of feedback from people i sharpened knives for. i found out what kind of edge held up the best and stuck with it. i have a knife i made that i can chop down a tree and still shave hair and push cut newspaper.

for an all around edge that will hold up to every day use, a 400 grit abrasive is all the higher you need to go. going higher in grit is a waste of money and time in my opinion.

you can get a knife (that has a burr worked up on an 80 grit abrasive) shaving sharp that will also last if you finish the edge properly after removing the burr. having a knife with an edge as fine as what you would find on a razor blade is a waste since it will roll. it would be like using a straight razor to cut up a bunch of cardboard or cut anything harder than cardboard.
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I think it depends on the steel and how agressive it cuts, some steels are still very agressive cutters even with a polished edge while others aren't worth a darn.

I tend to agree with you based on my testing for the most part.
 
You know we each have our preferences and techniques. I think some sound advice was given to consider using the factory grinds and bevels first and going from there.

As far as knives that can handle chopping and shaving. The facts are out there and there are more than a few knives that can do so. No one said anything about cutting rebar, etc and shaving faces. People can believe what they want to believe, but that does not change facts.
 
good post bastid. some guys might have been brainwashed into thinking otherwise. brian jones has a chopper i made and he gave it a better workout than anything i have ever done. the night he called me up to say he had pictures of the chopper stuck in drywall had me looking for my boots but he had no reason to bs me. he even posted several times about the edge holding ability of the chopper. i would like to see some of the trolls tell him they doubt his word. i hope you get the knife i gave you soon so you can test it out.
 
Continuing to build on the original theme of the thread - I certainly believe that a brand new knife (out of the box) assuming it is at least of acceptable quality should be "given a try" before its very soul (its edge) be modified thus changing what it is elementally.
If somebody met me and immediately wanted me to change my personality I'd question why they wanted me in their life to start with - Oh wait, that was my first marriage.
Nevermind.
 
i had a passaround knife sent to me this week and it was sharp but had a coarse, toothy edge.
the tip area was not quite as sharp as the rest but it was decent. i could have worked up a burr on it but decided to just run it across the slotted wheel which is all it needed.
now its a lot sharper and still has the coarse toothy edge that will shave hair.
 
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dont touch that factory edge !!!!
not until you give it a try.
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I agree with this advice, and would add that after trying it, you will be in a better position to determine if you are "average" with regard to knife use.

I am not implying that there is anything wrong with "average"...merely that most factories (the good ones anyway) set targets for their edge geometry so that they will perform well for the average user.

OTOH, if you are a member of a perhaps smaller group that lies outside of "average" you may be inclined to experiment with the edge geometry and finish.

ONLY after you have tried BOTH the factory edge AND something else, can you objectively compare them...and even then...there are INFINITE permutations of what can be done differently from factory edges....so it is really hard to state that the factory edge is the absolute best for a single member of the population (and I do not think anyone is making that statement). OTOH, it may not be so hard to say what is best for MOST of the population.

I think what is being urged here, is for everyone to objectively try a factory edge and compare it (personally) to what they suspect might be better. Blindly believing ANYTHING you read on the web is a silly thing to do...

I have done these experiments/comparisons of factory edges and customized edges numerous times. I have made videos on the subject. People that know me have seen these videos.

I urge everyone NOT to watch the videos, but rather do the exercise yourself. Once you know what works for you, and have proved it, you will know...and you will have no reason to argue or attempt to convince anyone else (because that argument amounts to arguing preferences...which are influenced by many factors).

The astute reader may infer that there is no SINGLE correct answer here...we are all different, and that is why arguing about what edge is best is sort of silly...because it attempts to fit a single answer to a LARGE population of users.

If you are going to bet on what type of edge is going to be best MOST OF THE TIME, the SMART money is going to be on factory edges. Knife makers (like Spyderco, Benchmade, etc.) have a vested interest in betting the winning horse in this race. Perhaps someone here knows more than these companies with regard to what edge would be best for the average user? I do not have an ego that big...
 
This is downright silly.

I have had MANY busse knives, I've sharpened three times as many as I have owned. I've convexed them by hand, I've convexed them by belt grinder, I've sharpened them with an edge pro before I sold it and I've sharpened them with DMT plates. I've sharpened them by paper wheels and I've stropped them on my jeans. I've sharpened them and kept their very obtuse edge angle intact, and polished them up so they could push cut newspaper (Not holding the knife at an angle, but straight up and down) shave hair and split hair. After chopping down a normal size tree the edge remains sharp, sharp for pretty much all my uses. If I bring it to my arm, and use the portion of the blade I just used to chop down the tree, it'll scrape arm hair off in most cases, not smoothly but what it wont do, and what I have the most problem with is push cutting newspaper straight up and down. Even pushcutting printer paper STRAIGHT UP AND DOWN. No angle, no drawing etc..

I've sharpened knives to 200 grit edges up to .25 micron and bare leather. I know what works best for me. No amount of Richards Disciples are going to make me believe a 400 grit edge is best for everything and anything higher will roll. No one will make me believe a tighter scratch pattern on an edge the same thickness will cause it to roll while the grittier one will not. Micro serrations are not a good thing when looking for a good cut, there are very few applications where a "toothy" edge is ideal, for me atleast.

No one is going to convince me paper wheels are a good system for beginners, in fact they're a very easy way to destroy a knife, and if you're a ding dong, injure yourself. Paper wheels are the fastest way to a shaving sharp edge, but are they idiot proof? Of course not. Can you get them sharper? Of course. Have I been sharpening for 30 years? Nope, I'm 28 years old. I didn't even learn to sharpen knives properly (used to use a water cooled grind wheel dressed out ultra fine at work) until a few years ago. Does that mean that someone with years of experience is automatically correct over me? Of course not. I'm a machinist and cnc programmer, I know people with over 40 years of machining experience that I still need to help them figure out why they need to move their turn tool in the z to even out their chamfers, why their mill is chattering and why they're leaving a .003 step on a workpiece. Just because they have experience doesn't make them right.

No one is trolling here, this is a forum to share ideas. We're sharing ideas, and working out problems.
 
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unit said:
Knife makers (like Spyderco, Benchmade, etc.) have a vested interest in betting the winning horse in this race. Perhaps someone here knows more than these companies with regard to what edge would be best for the average user? I do not have an ego that big...
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Knife makers make edges that are a compromise between durability and cutting ability. Spyderco is one company who I will say, from all my dealings with them, have provided excellent edge geometry on almost every knife. Benchmade however does not IMO. Too obtuse and i've found a lot of their edges outright dull, while some shaving sharp. Production knife makers put edges on their knives that will hopefully survive doing something stupid with the knife, outside the realm of normal cutting tasks a folder would be called upon for. Most people don't need an edge as thick as a lot of factory grinds come, others do. To say the factory grind is going to be best is presumptuous of what the end user will actually be doing with the knife. I buy knives with super steels so I don't have to deal with 25+ degree edges per side. If I wanted an obtuse edge, i'd go by a cheap piece of crap with low end 400 series stainless.
 
Knife makers make edges that are a compromise between durability and cutting ability. Spyderco is one company who I will say, from all my dealings with them, have provided excellent edge geometry on almost every knife. Benchmade however does not IMO. Too obtuse and i've found a lot of their edges outright dull, while some shaving sharp. Production knife makers put edges on their knives that will hopefully survive doing something stupid with the knife, outside the realm of normal cutting tasks a folder would be called upon for. Most people don't need an edge as thick as a lot of factory grinds come, others do. To say the factory grind is going to be best is presumptuous of what the end user will actually be doing with the knife. I buy knives with super steels so I don't have to deal with 25+ degree edges per side. If I wanted an obtuse edge, i'd go by a cheap piece of crap with low end 400 series stainless.
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You have illustrated that you are perhaps not an average user.

With regard to the bolded portion. It is presumptuous and necessarily so. Manufacturers need to presume something about their buyers in order to satisfy (hopefully) the majority of them. Perhaps they presume that retention is the reason people spend up for super steel.

All I am saying is that outside of this forum, there is a big world of buyers...that is the target audience considered for factory edges. Guys like you and me are considered, but it would be foolish for Spyderco to release a production run of edges that have radical geometry (like the knife in my pocket)...it would generate more complaints than praise. That is why I believe what I said...I am not saying that no one should ever stray from factory edges....MUCH TO THE CONTRARY!

However it would be wrong (in my opinion) to say EVERYONE should read up on a forum and select a grind geometry based on what they read...better to objectively test these things yourself and decide on your own unique solution to the problem.
 
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Ankerson said:
I think it depends on the steel and how agressive it cuts, some steels are still very agressive cutters even with a polished edge while others aren't worth a darn.

I tend to agree with you based on my testing for the most part.
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And I for the most part. I find many factory edges to be more obtuse than needed and can get very good edge retention from a more acute angle. That's not to say that the factory bevel wasn't serviceable. As for the particular edge preparation, that's task specific - no one edge type works well for every task. That said, for utility work I agree with Richard and IME 400 grit is at the upper end of what will give long life and cut the widest variety of materials well.


Bastid said:
As far as knives that can handle chopping and shaving. The facts are out there and there are more than a few knives that can do so. No one said anything about cutting rebar, etc and shaving faces. People can believe what they want to believe, but that does not change facts.
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My Fiskars camp hatchet can take a shaving edge and hold it for multiple trips into the boonies (I was genuinely surprised to find that it was indeed still shaving the hair off my arm after three or four camping trips). Usual diet consists of downed/seasoned birch and beech as large as 8 inches in diameter (approx). Edge retention is greatly enhanced by not allowing Tyros to use it, as they can screw up an edge in ten minutes or less.

HH
 
HeavyHanded said:
And I for the most part. I find many factory edges to be more obtuse than needed and can get very good edge retention from a more acute angle. That's not to say that the factory bevel wasn't serviceable. As for the particular edge preparation, that's task specific - no one edge type works well for every task. That said, for utility work I agree with Richard and IME 400 grit is at the upper end of what will give long life and cut the widest variety of materials well.
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I think a lot of depends on what is going to be cut with the blade in question.

Sometimes toothy (Agressive) is best and other times finer edges are best.
 
Ankerson said:
I think a lot of depends on what is going to be cut with the blade in question.

Sometimes toothy (Agressive) is best and other times finer edges are best.
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Why be all wishy washy? The OP would never hedge like that.
 
shecky said:
Why be all wishy washy? The OP would never hedge like that.
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Just telling the truth, no one type of edge finish is going to be best 100% of the time.

You have to Taylor the edge to the work sometimes.

Then all of that can also depend on the Steel so it's an individual thing.

There really isn't one best fit all answer.

Personally I like the more agressive cutting High Alloy steels so I can use a polished edge for most of what I need a knife for. That's not to say I don't drop down to a med grit when I feel I need it.
 
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unit said:
You have illustrated that you are perhaps not an average user.
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Regarding 230grains and many of us here, we are not average users. ;) We are, in fact, grouchy, argumentative, nit-picking, salty bastards.

Wow, 1K post... I guess it's time for a give away... :)
 
I think it's an incredible talent to put a extremely fine polished edge on a knife , but I don't think the time spent refining a egde to that level is worth the amount of everyday use/performance you will get out of it ! Perhaps in a controlled environment it will out perform , but in life where your edge may hit materials that can chip/roll the edge I'll take a quick working edge any day .
 
I always try the factory edge before taking it to the stones.

It never seems to matter how good it is, it always ends up going to the stones anyway. Im almost certain I have a problem.
 
Richard J, I will admit that your philosophy goes against what I believe to be correct to some degree, but I am willing to admit the possibility that it might work. In my time, I've believed that the more refined the edge, the sharper the edge. When it comes to the virtues of a knife, sharpness is more important to me than edge retention because I am usually not far from my sharpening stones or any other sharpening medium that I can use. I learned on Japanese Waterstones, and they continue to be my favorite method, although I've tried using sandpaper and diamond stones as well.

Even though your words in the OP contradict what I have believed to be the best method, I am always continuing to grow and learn, and I am intrigued by the results you've been able to achieve. I may be giving this a go at some point on some of my older knives to see what I can do...

Thanks for your contributions.

JGON
 
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