drawbacks of a ground blade compared to a forged blade...

Bano119 said:
Following is his response; "the difference between forged and a ground blade has been going on for years and years.but a forged blade is a world apart.all blades have life,forging is the soul.just the cutting performance alone,edge holding ability,and balance its two different knives two different worlds"
Funny thing is he found my knife somewhere on the internet, then had a hard time getting my email. so he worked fairly hard to make the purchase.
Thanks for all of the replies, they support my thinking to the whole process. I do add patina and a vintage look by heating the blade pre-heat treat and hammer texturing. Its Aldo's 1084
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He reads Blade Magazine.
 
Tai Goo made a good point in an email to me.

A forged blade has the advantage of more refinement of the grain lines as it is reduced ( especially toward the edge), and well as reducing any impurities to smaaller size.
The main gain in a forged blade is the flow of the grain. In a forged blade, the grain follows the edge direction. This is especially significant on a long and curved sword. The tang has the grain aligned, no matter how it is curved.
Imagine a shelf bracket forged to 90 degrees. The grain follows the bend, and has full strength in all directions. If the shelf bracket was ground out of a huge block of steel ( ignore the obvious waste), the grain would be at 90 degrees to itself on the two arms. This would make the apex and one arm weaker on the ground bracket.
 
I have this sense of Deja vu!! Like maybe this exact thread has been made before? Lol I could be going crazy though! :)
 
I'll agree with you bladsmth, except to say that unless tested to or near destruction most people will never notice the difference. Also forging allows one to use a lot of low temp thermal cycles that further refines the grain. The thing about hot rolled from ingots is that the ingot is HOT, with a corresponding large grain structure, forging in the lower temps allows grain refinement. But again, unless someone really knows what there doing they will never notice much if any difference in the real world. I had a maker argue against using liquid nitrogen on stainless because of cost and the average user wouldn't notice the difference. I still do it because I notice the difference. Same with forging, I like to test each and every blade and try to improve the performance, no mater how small the gain may be. Doesn't mean I don't do stock removal on occasion though, I just let potential buyers know it's stock removal.
 
I had stayed out of this thread because as Mason said, it has been done several times before. Tai's email brought up a good point, so I posted it.

My personal opinion is that forging is worth it just for the enjoyment.
I agree that you can't make damascus by stock removal.....but you can make a great damascus blade by it. Some damascus patterns can be messed up by forging.
Forging a carbon steel knife that has curves in it has some advantages over grinding, but these are more technical than practical. Without a lab, it would be nearly impossible to tell a well made forged knife from a well made stock reduced one. That said, if I was taking a sword into battle, I would want one that was forged.

The truth of the matter is that if one wants to become a bladesmith, he needs to master forging as well as grinding.
 
:thumbup: The truth of the matter is that if one wants to become a bladesmith, he needs to master forging as well as grinding.

Exactly
 
Smith: "Means to smite"...
Just figured Id get my last one if..I figure this thread has about a page left in it before it has to be locked..;)
 
Yeah, it's probably about time to lock it up. The forging BS is getting close to knee deep already.
 
I don't see any reason to lock it. What Stacy said is true, certain items do benefit from being forged due to the directionality of the grain, heavily curved blades and crankshafts are a couple of examples. A relatively straight knife blade made from bar stock is not really one of them, the stock has already been heavily reduced by rolling and unless the bar stock was sheared sideways off a large sheet, the grain direction is already aligned.
Whether some steels acutally benefit from further forging (as opposed to thermal processing only) after the rolling process is open to debate, I have yet to see any data that supports it.
 
It dosnt have to be locked "right now" but people cant lay off the sarcasm in these threads..It never fails, sadly Ive seen to many of them go south..:( It could be a really good discussion..
 
I wont get into the debate over if there are actual metalurgical advantages in forging, as thats been discussed in depth, and can be researched elsewhere online.

I will say this, some folks only buy forged blades, not because of any percieved (real or not) performance advantages, but that the customers appreciate the extra labour, art, and skill set it takes to properly forge a blade.
 
I've had some discussions with Tai on this and can see the advantages in forging.

Matt Lamey also brings up a very good point!
 
Kentucky said:
I like forging because it gives many more options..Ive made plenty of stock removal knives, no drawbacks to them at all..But, you have to be able to forge to weld, and you have to be able to weld to make a 6 bar migration era sword :D
Some folks out there still believe that Katana's never had to be sharpened and could cut through any other sword without so much as nick..
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You absolutely hit that nail on the head, Kentucky. Sometimes I get questions about the difference between forged and stock removal, which I really don't mind answering. It shows that they're interested, and I might make a new friend. But I end up reluctantly explaining that Japanese blades aren't indestructible - All. The. Time. That's the sort of thing that will get my eyes rolling in irritation just because it's such a popular misconception, especially when they walk away still believing the myth. I guess you can't enlighten everyone, though.
 
RMLamey said:
I will say this, some folks only buy forged blades, not because of any percieved (real or not) performance advantages, but that the customers appreciate the extra labour, art, and skill set it takes to properly forge a blade.
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Just as some people only buy tool-steel and stainless blades because of very real performance advantages. I will leave questions of labor, skill and especially "art" to others. We're flogging a long-dead horse, here, gentlemen. This is the sort of thing that can only serve to ruffle feathers and get people riled-up and banned.
 
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Will52100 said:
a forged receiver vs. a cast receiver or one milled from barstock. Nothing whatsoever wrong with cast or milled, but I wanted a forged one because I wanted it.
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Comparing forged vs. cast for a firearms receiver, I think there is a difference. Forged vs. milled for a knife blade, probably very little difference. Forging does something to the grain structure that you don't get with cast, so a forged receiver should be stronger. Similarly forged engine components are generally stronger (forged pistons, connecting rods, even crankshaft for instance). But this has already been mentioned- the stock that is sold to knifemakers is basically forged when it is rolled into flat sheets at the mill.
 
I'll clarify the comment about the receiver, it was to illustrate ones personal preferences. Absolutely nothing wrong with cast or milled receivers, and while forged is stronger, the end user will never know the difference. Out side of laboratory destructive testing no one will be able to tell them apart performance wise, at least on the M14, milage may very with other designs. The M14 design got it's start with the M1 Garand in the 30's, state of the art then was forging, we've come a bit metallurgical speaking since then, both in metals and understanding how pressure effects it.

I'll also state that I've seen a noticeable improvement with SOME forged blades over the same alloy stock removal with the same heat treat. Only thing is I've only noticed it with extensive testing, and then it's not that much of an improved. The average user would probably never notice the difference. I'm not totally convinced it's less the hammering and more the multiple heating and cooling cycles, combined with a relatively cool hammer and anvil causing the effect. One day I get some time I may test it out for fun.

So my basic answer to does forging make a better blade? YES!,,,errr some times! Maybe, if everything is done rite. At the end of the day it gives me more freedom and through forging I've learned more about metal, that's enough for me to continue heating and beating.

End of the day wether it's forged or stock removal, high alloy or low alloy, stainless or 1050 carbon steel, the heat treat is the most important part.
 
Kentucky said:
Smith: "Means to smite"...
[/QUOTE

The origin of the word "smith" is not what most think. Most people assume it is "smite", but smite comes from smith, not the other way around.
Smith comes from the Germanic root Schmit...meaning " to cut, or to carve". This gave the source for the Teutonic word "smeithan"...to forge....which gave Old English "smite"...to hit or strike hard.
From the German root, it is used to imply any trade that shapes a finished product from raw materials. Thus any trade ending in smith or schmit meant XXXXworker. Tin smith, word smith, blacksmith, tunesmith.

The actual root word is Greek, and is the word for a burin, or graver.....thus the meaning "to carve or cut".
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bladsmth said:
Kentucky said:
Smith: "Means to smite"...
[/QUOTE

The origin of the word "smith" is not what most think. Most people assume it is "smite", but smite comes from smith, not the other way around.
Smith comes from the Germanic root Schmit...meaning " to cut, or to carve". This gave the source for the Teutonic word "smeithan"...to forge....which gave Old English "smite"...to hit or strike hard.
From the German root, it is used to imply any trade that shapes a finished product from raw materials. Thus any trade ending in smith or schmit meant XXXXworker. Tin smith, word smith, blacksmith, tunesmith.

The actual root word is Greek, and is the word for a burin, or graver.....thus the meaning "to carve or cut".
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Does this mean that us stock removal Knifemakers are blade smiths?
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