Eating meat if you had to kill your intake?

[SubaruSTi]

First off I can't see how you a human is going to chase down anything on foot and kill it with a knife. Maybe if its fenced in your back yard its possible but even then its hard to catch a hog, chicken, and a cow would just be too dangerous. And knife hunting is not very humane to say the least. Hog hunting with knives is really dog hunting and you stabing the hog after the dogs do all the work.

 

[Bufford]

Everything born has to die eventually. The best thing that the harvester/farmer can do at the time of slaughter is to do it as painlessly as possible and make use of as much of the animal as one can.

We have freezers today, and that is the method most of us know how to use. Kill, hang, butcher, package and then freeze for later use. I am not too familiar with salting preservation techniques, but I know that the meat shop sure does a nice job curing the hams from so many pigs over the years.

Some here have been debating the means to a painless kill. I prefer the knife over the explosive forces of the bullet. We hear often about the hockey player who keeps on playing until they realize that they feel faint and their sweater is covered in blood because their throat has been slit by a skate and bleeding to death all over the rink. They didn't feel any pain. The same thing can be said about livestock that are in a calm environment not knowing where the knife is coming from other than perhaps the sound of the keeper strap pop release of the knife from the belt.

If I didn't know that I was about to be killed and had no choice over the matter, I would much rather have a slice to the neck, than the explosive force of a bullet ripping through my chest.

 

[runningboar]

And knife hunting is not very humane to say the least. .

How is it more inhumane than shooting, punching holes in vitals is punching holes in vitals.

Maybe if its fenced in your back yard its possible but even then its hard to catch a hog, chicken, and a cow would just be too dangerous..

What???? How do you think that meat gets on your table, be pretty tough if you couldn't catch the animal, even in a pen.

Not much experience with livestock or killing, right? Chris

 

[koyote]

First off I can't see how you a human is going to chase down anything on foot and kill it with a knife. Maybe if its fenced in your back yard its possible but even then its hard to catch a hog, chicken, and a cow would just be too dangerous. And knife hunting is not very humane to say the least. Hog hunting with knives is really dog hunting and you stabing the hog after the dogs do all the work.

I think the OP intended the knife comment specifically as an example of not distancing yourself from the killing. He even said

"Further imagine that you had to (safely for this thought experiment) kill your quarry with a knife (I didn't want to divorce my students from the kill)."

Now, there's a few things here that may have been missed. First- thought experiment, second, imagine, third- the idea of not being divorced from the kill.




To respond directly to your post, you seem to imply that there is something somehow wrong with using dogs to hunt. Would you care to explain?

You also indicate that killing even regular livestock by hand is too dangerous to consider. I think that since livestock were domesticated for meat use well before the invention of the firearm, there may be methods to accomplish this. It would be reasonable to assume there are even without direct knowledge or experience. Now, I *prefer* shooting, it suits my idea of 'the hunt' as a life experience- but I've killed meat animals with hands, hatchet, and knife.

On another note regarding knives- knife hunting (without the contentious dogs) has been done many times for many years. It's described as a survival technique in many manuals. Not my preferred method, but hardly impossible.

 

[Guyon]

We hear often about the hockey player who keeps on playing until they realize that they feel faint and their sweater is covered in blood because their throat has been slit by a skate and bleeding to death all over the rink.

We do???

I've got to start watching more ESPN.

 

[SubaruSTi]

I think the OP intended the knife comment specifically as an example of not distancing yourself from the killing. He even said

"Further imagine that you had to (safely for this thought experiment) kill your quarry with a knife (I didn't want to divorce my students from the kill)."

Now, there's a few things here that may have been missed. First- thought experiment, second, imagine, third- the idea of not being divorced from the kill.




To respond directly to your post, you seem to imply that there is something somehow wrong with using dogs to hunt. Would you care to explain?

You also indicate that killing even regular livestock by hand is too dangerous to consider. I think that since livestock were domesticated for meat use well before the invention of the firearm, there may be methods to accomplish this. It would be reasonable to assume there are even without direct knowledge or experience. Now, I *prefer* shooting, it suits my idea of 'the hunt' as a life experience- but I've killed meat animals with hands, hatchet, and knife.

On another note regarding knives- knife hunting (without the contentious dogs) has been done many times for many years. It's described as a survival technique in many manuals. Not my preferred method, but hardly impossible.

Animals that have been pursued and or terrified before death are usually more "gamy" tasteing than one that has been calm and droped in its tracks by a well placed shot. The quicker the death the better. I believe it to be from lactic acid in the muscles. Not to say that a knife cant make a quick kill to a calm animal that you can approach but as far as hog hunting, I dont want to eat a gamy, muscular boar. Have you ever smelled boar meat cooking? That will drive you out of the house!

Regarding knife hunting, I would love to see you try to kill a deer with a knife. Be realistic, snares are much more effective than trying to chase a deer down (that doesnt even make sense) in a "survival situation".

As far as handleing domestic hogs, have you ever done? Someone invented the hog shocker for a reason, and I dont know about you but messing around with 250-350 pound hogs is dangerous enough without trying to upset them. No way am I going to try to stab or cut one, then possibly get hurt and fall over unconscious in the hog pen and be eaten by them, and that happens all the time to farmers that have had heart attacks etc.

 

[gdtrfb]

For what??? Chickens are food, what other worth do they have. Never seen one fetch a ball or pull a load. About the only thing I can think of is to fertilize my yard with their composted crap but I do that now and still eat them, so that doesn't count.

I'm really at a loss, please let me know how they are worth more than a few meals. My family raises chickens so I am sure they would like to know too. Chris

Eggs

I have a couple of friends that raise them just for that. Again, I have no problem with raising them for any purpose. Eat em if you want, but you can only eat em once (albeit a couple of meals). Would one take his best hen out for a dinner, when you can get many meals from her eggs?

I also have a couple acquaintances that raise them to get their ag tax designation and sell eggs to those they know for cheap. Every now and then, one becomes dinner.


ymmv, and as one with family in the industry (at whatever level), I assume you have much more knowledge in this area based on upbringing. I'm not going to try and convince you of a different business model. I assume you and your family will do what is necessary to stay operational.

As far as the initial post goes, I wouldn't kill them and would rather just be a parasite off their eggs. I know not many would opt for the same route and that is ok. I'm also ok with taking out the ones that aren't producing eggs, etc.

_____________

I know some native Hawaiians that hunt wild hog with machetes. Takes a set.

 

[koyote]

Animals that have been pursued and or terrified before death are usually more "gamy" tasteing than one that has been calm and droped in its tracks by a well placed shot. The quicker the death the better. I believe it to be from lactic acid in the muscles. Not to say that a knife cant make a quick kill to a calm animal that you can approach but as far as hog hunting, I dont want to eat a gamy, muscular boar. Have you ever smelled boar meat cooking? That will drive you out of the house!

Regarding knife hunting, I would love to see you try to kill a deer with a knife. Be realistic, snares are much more effective than trying to chase a deer down (that doesnt even make sense) in a "survival situation".

As far as handleing domestic hogs, have you ever done? Someone invented the hog shocker for a reason, and I dont know about you but messing around with 250-350 pound hogs is dangerous enough without trying to upset them. No way am I going to try to stab or cut one, then possibly get hurt and fall over unconscious in the hog pen and be eaten by them, and that happens all the time to farmers that have had heart attacks etc.

I know about chased game, still not really seeing the point. You said that hunting peeegs with a knife and dogs isn't real knife hunting.

Yeah, I've had wild boar stew. Cooked outdoors, even better. And javelina.

You have an assumption that the only way to hunt with a knife is to 'chase the animal down'- if you actually look at the recommendations for knife hunting- and no, it's not top choice for something like deer- it's an ambush Not saying it's the safest thing in the world, or some sort of 'best practice' or anything. But yer stuck on some sort of idea of running after deer with an SAK, which isn't the idea.

Fortunately, we seem to now be in agreement that chickens, at least, can be handled without a gun. Now it's hogs, which absolutely cannot be penned in any way and dispatched with steel. Now, I happen to disagree with that.

Look, it's pretty simple- while several hundred farmers have had heart attacks and been eaten by their pigs or whatever, and stupid people can get hurt by the creatures, the assumption you are making to defend the claim that livestock can't be dispatched with a knife relies on people doing it the dumbest possible way. You have to be smarter than the pig. And one pig goes a LONG way, so it's okay to go smart and slow. (And yes, I've raised and eaten hogs)

To bring another basic example to the table, involving livestock- kiling cattle and sheep with a knife is so well established that it's been ritualized for a couple thousand years. Generally without the death of a rabbi involved, and long before the development of electric prods.

I'd rather get back on topic, and discuss the core idea of eating meat when you have to take it from field to table instead of store to table. For some reason there are several arguments here that are very highly focussed on the idea that you just can't use a knife for anything but cuttiin up the store bought steak. (Hrm, maybe it is central to the topic)

 

[Rick Marchand]

Truthfully, I would probably eat less meat if it wasn't readily available and prepared for me..... but I would still be eatin it.... no question there.

Don't get me wrong... I love vegitarians.... I eat em all the time.... aside from that cougar steak I had in December '08.... lol.

There is room for all God's creatures.... right next to the potatoes!

 

[koyote]

cougar, eh. Haven't had that. Dog, bear, pig in various forms, possum and squirrel and bunny, goat and sheep and even puffin eggs, but not cougar. Bet it's...... not at all like chicken

 

[mtnfolk mike]

Truthfully, I would probably eat less meat if it wasn't readily available and prepared for me..... but I would still be eatin it.... no question there.

Don't get me wrong... I love vegitarians.... I eat em all the time.... aside from that cougar steak I had in December '08.... lol.

There is room for all God's creatures.... right next to the potatoes!

well said Rick...:thumbup::thumbup: that's a great pic man..

i have no issues with harvesting my own meat, i have been doing so the vast majority of my life and i also would probably would eat less of it, if it wasn't readily available...
my wife is primarily vegetarian, she just started eating chicken/turkey about a year ago, after a 18-20 year hiatus...

 

[Rick Marchand]

Regarding knife hunting, I would love to see you try to kill a deer with a knife. Be realistic, snares are much more effective than trying to chase a deer down (that doesnt even make sense) in a "survival situation".

Subaru..... you are speaking of something that i would guess you have no experience in. I do not mean to offend just to state the facts. I have had plenty of oppourtunity to take deer with a knife... though I have not had the intent.... and I know that animals can read intent very well so that may pose a problem. Racoons are slow, rabbits are easy to get within throwing distance using a bi-fold blind. Hunting with a knife is well documented in old journals from the 18th century woodsman.


Sorry to get off topic....

Rick

 

[udtjim]

When thew chickens get old they generally quit laying eggs. Then they are great for roasting.

Unless you have an animal with horns tied securely or in a chute. Don't try to kill it with a knife. You can be badly injured or killed. Don't approach a antlered animal with a knife unless you are positive that it is no longer mobile. This is from many years of guiding big game hunters. A wounded Buck can kill you in a heartbeat.

Some states do not allow hunting with dogs other than for bird retrieval so be sure to check the local laws.

 

[SubaruSTi]

Subaru..... you are speaking of something that i would guess you have no experience in. I do not mean to offend just to state the facts. I have had plenty of oppourtunity to take deer with a knife... though I have not had the intent.... and I know that animals can read intent very well so that may pose a problem. Racoons are slow, rabbits are easy to get within throwing distance using a bi-fold blind. Hunting with a knife is well documented in old journals from the 18th century woodsman.


Sorry to get off topic....

Rick

So have I, at the petting zoo...

Hunting deer with knives is bullshit to say the least. Even in a deer blind on the ground it would be hard.

 

[H2H907]

H2H,

I have always heard that our digestive system was on the long side of medium. Shortest are straight carvnivors - longest are straight omnivores. I think the 28 feet we have (on average) is pretty long - and it makes me wonder if that has led to all of the colon cancer we have (too much red meat). However, I don't know. Do you have any data to point at? I don't!

It's an ongoing argument, with both sides presenting opinions from various physicians. When you say our digestive system is long at twenty-eight feet on average, put it into context of comparatively sized animals (an ostrich's is forty feet long). I was always told by my vegetarian/vegan friends that ours was long, and they have the propaganda to prove it. Then when I was taking Anatomy and Physiology, I was corrected and told that it was on the short side of medium. There's bound to be variation in size from person to person, as there is with every organ.

I can tell you this, that when I had to go in for a colonoscopy a few years ago, mine was clean as a whistle. I eat a diet of primarily red meat, eggs and bacon. Dunno who came up with the idea that it sticks in your colon, but it doesn't apply to me apparently.

 

[emperorwang]

I would eat precisely the same amount of meat as I do now. Which is to say, none. I eat no meat or fish whatsoever. I would not kill an animal myself and I don't pay others to do it by proxy.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

So have I, at the petting zoo...

Hunting deer with knives is bullshit to say the least. Even in a deer blind on the ground it would be hard.

It's difficult not impossible. My father often nearly runs into deer when he runs on the carriage roads in Acadia National Park. And he's not even trying to. I imagine that it would be more than possible if you plan properly.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Hunting with knives is not B.S. I, for one, am a Ninja - in fact, I am sending this message from a phone looking over Rick's shoulder right now.

TF

 

[Rick Marchand]

So have I, at the petting zoo...

Hunting deer with knives is bullshit to say the least. Even in a deer blind on the ground it would be hard.

I was not insulting you, Subaru.... so please show me the same courtesy...

I have touched wild deer (some, right in KGD's stomping grounds) and have had them sniff the top of my head. These were deer from different locations(800km) I know many others who can do the same.... no special gift... no mystical/spiritual powers.... just awareness, observation and patience my friend. It is okay to doubt without proof, but atleast have an open mind and don't jump to calling people liars.

Hunting with knives is not B.S. I, for one, am a Ninja - in fact, I am sending this message from a phone looking over Rick's shoulder right now.

TF

As long as that's ALL you are doing over my shoulder.............




Rick

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Rick,

Go check your peanut butter jar - yes the previously unopened one - I licked the inside of the jar!

I am THAT sneaky.

TF