Ed Fowler

I'll say this, my first blade show was a disapointment from the ABS side with a few exceptions like Ed, Bruce Bump and a few others. Most of the ABS mastersmiths I talked with basicly said my knives "had" to have the sharp spines and corners. While I'll admit they can be pleasing to the eye they are not very pleasing to the hand. I also felt there was an element of snobery from many of the mastersmiths, with a few notable exceptions. Several of them I talked to about heat treat were not at all interested in realy pushing performance, but they sure did have pretty knives.

I though about it for a while and finaly decide I started making knives for my self, not an organization or anybody else and would continue to make them the way I want and let the customeres decide if they liked them or not. I have a long way to go both fit and finish and performance, and will continue to strive and learn.
 
Rex, while I understand the point of your post, keep in mind the ABS is the American Bladesmith Society with the founding purpose of promoting the hand-forged blade. That is not to the shunning of stock removal makers (speaking as a stock-removal maker...though forging is in my near future).

As to the snobbery of others, Will, I'd have had difficulty holding my peace. It's one thing to promote excellence and give constructive criticizm to better the work of another maker, but opinions on style are just that. Take that kind of talk from others with a giant grain of salt.

--nathan
 
Seems to me there has been a lot of progress in forging and of course in the ABS itself since Bill Moran got things started down the path of what I call research and development That's what it is and I can't see where it has stopped. Guys are out there in public displaying the quality built into their forged blades. Before that, some of them and others have put tremendous time into developing better methods of developing the use of steels to their most useable characteristic of cutting. I'm sure some of these smiths are members of the ABS. If Mr. Moran had taken the attitude that what was being done when he became involved was where it was at, I expect we would not have been amazed at his progress into blade shapes for certain uses as well as his Damascus contribution, formation of schools for teaching as well as hammer ins. I don't see these things gone nor slowed back. On the contrary there are makers in all sorts of places encouraging others to get into the hammering and other technical necessities of this art. And in truth many do not have a stamp that marks an MS .
Perhaps we are forgetting the history and yes even the fact that the hammer was supposed to be the thing to use, but the history is no longer thirty or forty years back it is now only five or ten years behind us and because of the many involved, new approaches and proceedures are so much is passed around daily through the internet without the need for the mouth to mouth thing . I believe a lot of the forged knives that are being made and are beutifull or otherwise to look at also have the very best of edge development included in their make up. How can that not be progress? Frank
 
I really appreciate everyone contributing to this thread, Its very interesting reading the different views. Thanks for your input Mr Fowler, What you said put things into a more understanding point of view, Thanks
 
I would just like to point out that I have never, EVER been met with snobbery or an unwillingness to share when dealing with ABS members. And that goes from when I was just starting out and asking for help to a point where I can call many of those men friends.

It hasn't mattered in my experience, if I was talking to the "old guard" as some like to refer to them which would be the fellas who've been around a good while like Jay Hendrickson, or the more recently minted Ms's like Burt Foster and Jason Knight... They are all first class men and first class makers.

Not calling anybody here a liar or anything like that, just speaking of the much different experiences I've had. :)
 
silver_pilate said:
Rex, while I understand the point of your post, keep in mind the ABS is the American Bladesmith Society with the founding purpose of promoting the hand-forged blade. That is not to the shunning of stock removal makers
--nathan
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Nathan,
I do understand the purpose for the ABS and why it was started, as I mentioned in my post, evolution of the organization would/should/could include stock removal makers as well. It would be great to have one organization that would set standards for all hand made knives. The ABS being the strongest, most supported group seems the logical leader to combine the two. I'm also going to be forging in the near future, I've done a little and love it. My problem is I'm too old and broke down to do a lot of it, 2 shoulder surgeries on my hammering arm might limit extended forging sessions. That won't stop me, at least from attempting it.

Ed's post is a lot different than my point of view, he wants things to go back to the original purpose from the beginning. And I understand his point of view. But I don't see why the ABS couldn't include stock removal makers with their own set of standards, equal to the quality of forged blades. The bottom line is that we all want to make the best possible knives we can make, having a set standard just like that of the forged blades would only serve to make us better.

Someone mentioned the Knifemakers Guild, what I was told ( I did not investigate it ) was that it was all but dead, hanging on by a thread with few members. With all the ABS does, they take the forfront in my mind for knife makers. And lets do keep in mind what all the ABS does, they have made a way for all of us to get a start, as for me, the Blade magazine alone lit the fire in me to get started, inspiration, teaching, and giving me reference to other makers and the possibilities that can be done with steel. Lets not forget the Blade Show, I attended my first one this year. WOW, what an experience for my entire family. I guess it comes down to either forge or do stock removal, depending on the knife. For the ABS, get to forging, at other times stock removal might be the better choice depending on the knife that's being made and of course the material that's being used.

Please keep in mind that I'm a REAL newbie, I may be miss informed about some things, but I have an opinion and it's just that, everyone has one. I would just like to see KNIFE MAKERS come under one organization, with a set of standards that can make all of us better. My goal as a knife maker is to make the best knife I can make, eveytime. Just like all of you.

As a former Marine, I do everything to the best of my ability,( it's ingrained into my soul), and when my ability is lacking, I go find the information to get better.( Or practice) Who wouldn't want all of that information in one place? The expectations I have of my knives is the same as that of the forged blade, not sure if that is realistic or not, but so far so good!

We all want to do the best we can do, with a governing organization that serves and supports our endeavors, I might be way off base with my views and opinons, but it seems simple to me. Including stock removal makers would boost membership, whichh would add more money to the organization, Looks like a win win for both the maker and the club
Rex
 
RMcClellan said:
Nathan,
I do understand the purpose for the ABS and why it was started, as I mentioned in my post, evolution of the organization would/should/could include stock removal makers as well. It would be great to have one organization that would set standards for all hand made knives. The ABS being the strongest, most supported group seems the logical leader to combine the two. I'm also going to be forging in the near future, I've done a little and love it. My problem is I'm too old and broke down to do a lot of it, 2 shoulder surgeries on my hammering arm might limit extended forging sessions. That won't stop me, at least from attempting it.
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With all due respect, looking to the ABS to abandon a key feature of it's charter as an organization is asking a bit much IMHO. While I understand your desire to have an organization that would suit your particular needs, I doubt that this will happen.

That said, forging doesn't have to be hard on you, or your shoulder. If you'd like to work on it, and don't want to shred yourself, in my opinion, don't start learning how to forge from somebody who is solely a bladesmith. Blacksmith's have us beat on effective forging techniques. I just spent the weekend learning from a 'smith who I watched draw down a 5" section of 1 1/8" 6150 round into a 10" or so taper, by himself, in 2 or 3 heats. not a muscleman either, just using effective techniques. Now, in keeping with the topic, this might be a good area of development for the ABS. Let's begin to look at other methods for effective, efficient, non-damaging forging techniques. To my mind, learning and teaching bladesmiths how to keep forging longer without injury, or use more fine forging techniques definitely advances the art.

Someone mentioned the Knifemakers Guild, what I was told ( I did not investigate it ) was that it was all but dead, hanging on by a thread with few members.

<snip>

As a former Marine, I do everything to the best of my ability,( it's ingrained into my soul), and when my ability is lacking, I go find the information to get better.( Or practice) Who wouldn't want all of that information in one place? The expectations I have of my knives is the same as that of the forged blade, not sure if that is realistic or not, but so far so good!
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I've not heard such things about the guild, but then again, I don't pay much attention to it. If you want the real scoop, from another Marine and one heck of a nice guy, get in touch with Keith Bagley of Old Pine Forge. Tell him I sent you and he'll only make a little fun of you ;)

-d
 
I watched the whole thing from the "outside" from the beginning, and see it a lot the same as Ed.

... probably best if I just stay out of it.
 
I have been a member of the ABS since 1988. I think I have known all the past and current members of the Board of Directors. They are all honorable men who do what they think is best for the organization. Most of the regular instructors seem to have a style that fits the perceived standards of what is expected to pass judging for JS and MS stamps. This is their job. The job of the judges at the Blade Show is a difficult one. It is a job of comparison. Comparing apples to apples is a lot more consistent than comparing apples to bananas. Therefore, it appears that the ABS as an organization has set standards for similar looking and constructed knives. The ABS judges are experts on this style of knife and will tell you if it is acceptable in comparison or not.

Ed, yes things have changed with the ABS over the years. When you and I were first presenting our knives for judging the Directors and their appointed judges were still trying to set consistent standards. We and probably several others, submitted knives that would not pass today&#8217;s judging. It&#8217;s not because we could not make knives that would pass but at the time no one really knew what would pass and what would not. Now there is very little doubt what a Bladesmith needs to make to progress in the ABS ranks.

Generally speaking the knives I make are not standard ABS &#8220;judging&#8221; styles. The ABS it&#8217;s Board of Directors or the membership has never tried to tell me what style knives to make. To my knowledge, the ABS has not tried to tell any Bladesmith, with the exception of knives for judging, what knives to make. They might understandably say don&#8217;t put a JS or MS stamp on stock removal knives. They might say don&#8217;t make crap and overstate what you do. Duh! The ABS as an organization is doing its job. We might not always agree how to do things but everyone is trying. They are the best game in town and being a member is a positive move in the career of a Bladesmith.

New applicants for stamps, play by the set rules for judging then make what you want to. The market will let you know if you are doing right or not.

Daniel
 
Sam Salvati said:
They are to my knowledge exclusively stock removal.
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Just for clarification, I have NO idea where you came up with that, Sam.
I was taught my beginning knifemaking skills by long-time Guild member Jerry Rados who makes some of the most sought after Damascus on the planet.
When you walk into his FORGE and see a 500# and a 250# Chambersburg hammer, the last thing you might think of is "stock removal".
Every knife he makes comes off of an anvil, as do many other Guild members.
 
DWinkler said:
They might understandably say don’t put a JS or MS stamp on stock removal knives. They might say don’t make crap and overstate what you do. Duh!

Daniel
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Does this mean in the eyes of ABS that stock removal knives are less of a knife than a forged knife?
 
Dan: I will save the quote stuff as I don't know how to do it.
You mention that the board does what they think is best for the organization. I agree, the issue is - what is best for the members?
More significantly what is best for the knife community?

When judges dictate style, they enforce their style on others. Thus the knife that has become known as "The ABS Knife" has evolved.

A couple of quotes I have heard:
"No knife with a brass guard or quillion will pass"
"Brass went out of style in 1963"?
"The knife and handle must be absolutely symmetrical"

A maker came to my shop last summer, stated that he wanted to learn, but requested that I not take any pictures of him or let anyone know that he worked with me because he had been advised and feared that it would hurt his chances for his MS stamp.
I feel this is sad, but considering the present status quo - smile!

There was a time when the Early European Quillion Dagger was known as the "Art" knife. I fought the concept of anyone dictating to another what is and is not art. The word "art" was finally dropped from the description of the MS jump through the hoop dagger.

The benefit of the present dictates and schools of the ABS is that they leave plenty of room for those who seek to do their own thinking - special.

Personally I can see no reason why a stock removal maker could not be a member and work through the hoops. The performance requirements are simplistic, the judges would never the difference and if the knives are good enough I ask Why not? A great many stock removal blades are of high quality and performance as good or better than many forged blades.

I remember a time when the rule was that Stainless could not be forged and would not be allowed. Today if a maker can forge stainless and pass the performance test he just might make it.

I do remember a board member demanding that a MS remove his stainless blades from his table at the Blade Show a few years ago. (note this was not the board), but the decision of a couple of board members who will remain unnamed. He refused to remove them and they remained - and sold!

I have said nothing intended to hurt the ABS, all comments I have made have been presented to the hierarchy first. I feel the ABS needs to break out of its present mold and would love to see a future set of JS test knives that were a real style show, filled with personal emotion through freedom of the makers, knives unique in function as well as beauty.

Only on rare occasions has an 'art' society, guild or judge picked the real winners in the that would lead in the future.
 
I have been a member of the American Bladesmith Society for two years. I took the Intro class at Washington Arkansas because I wanted to learn how to forge a knife blade by the best instructors in the U.S. My instructors were Jim Crowell and Tim Potier. I was not disappointed. Jim Crowell is probably one of the best in the world at forging a blade. And that is what ABS is about, learning about the forged blade, NOT HOW TO LEARN STOCK REMOVAL.

I am not knocking stock removal. I am just saying ABS teaches the forged blade.

But when I left the Intro class, I had gained something more. The friends that I made, both instructors and other students, while attending the class have become life long friends. We learn from each other and watch as each gets better and better making a forged blade.

All ABS members are persons with the desire to teach others. So, IF you want to learn how to forge a great blade and teach others, join ABS or take one of their classes. IN MY OPINION, ABS should never allow or teach stock removal. That's not what the American Bladesmith Society is about.

I have alot of respect for Ed Fowler's point, but correct fit and finish as well as function, is hard to judge consistently and is the basis of ABS judging for JS and MS status. I believe it should remain that way.
 
As we all know there are both makers and users out there that will say&#8221; forged knives are better" or " stainless steel stock removal knives are better" or "knives made by the full of the moon are better" or something. It depends on the situation. The fact is it all comes down to what materials are used and the knowledge of the person making the knife. There are a few makers out there that can make great knives out of less than the best materials, but anyone can screw up the best materials.

Knife users and collectors would be better off buying from a person they trust rather than assuming a particular method is best.

If the ABS as an organization does not feel that forging is generally the best way to make a knife then they would be called the American Knife Society. Assuming a Bladesmith forges knives. Which in this regard is the case. However, even the most die-hard knowledgeable Bladesmith will admit there are times when stock removal blades are best for a particular situation.

Daniel
 
I believe the ABS has contributed much to how the modern knife community is structured. The basic tenants of the ABS and the style of knife they require for testing has ingrained into the buying public and some makers a stylized model of what the modern Bowie is supposed to look like, along with other accepted styles.
This can be interpreted in two ways; the modern ABS bowie is a thing of simplistic beauty, I agree, or its acceptance as a standard is stifling to makers and to the buying public, aka brand recognition.

We need people to build the accepted standard, for those that want it, we also need those that work outside the box, they are needed to show what is possible.

Fred
 
Ed Fowler said:
....I watched Bill forge his demonstration blade and told him that the recessed ricasso was something I did not want on my blades and asked him if it was necessary in the forged blade? Bill said "Hell No!" and proceeded to show me how to forge a blade without the recessed ricasso....
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Hey Folks,

I was pleased to meet and attend various demonstrations by various ABS folks in Maine last summer. Unfortunately I have learned I do not learn through demonstration as well as I do hands on. Never-the-less it's all grist for the mill. I did work in a few hands-on forging sessions and retained a little.

I would love to learn some techniques for forging a blade with an edge that doesn't protrude and belly out past the ricasso. I discussed this with some of the folks, but it just wasn't on their radar screen. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to learn how to off-set the ricasso shoulder and make an "ABS" style knife complete with fit and finish. If I ever get a chance to figure out and/or be shown/coached with other techniques that'd be way cool too.

All the best, Phil
 
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deker said:
With all due respect, looking to the ABS to abandon a key feature of it's charter as an organization is asking a bit much IMHO. While I understand your desire to have an organization that would suit your particular needs, I doubt that this will happen.
TE]

At this point I would like to apologize for any comments, suggestions or ramblings that I made that might have offended anyone. I obviously DO NOT know what I'm talking about. My suggestions were not meant to offend or upset anyone. I admitted that I was misinformed about some things, and just plain ignorant of others. I agree that that ABS should not change their original purpose to suit my particular needs. I was not aware of the Knife Makers Guilds resurgence, as I took the individual that told me that they weren't going to be around much longer. I will be looking into the Guild to see if they will be better suited to my way of knife making. I will also be joining the ABS, in the hopes of one day being good enough to pass the Journeyman test.

Deker, I would love to learn the method you referred to that can help keep my shoulder from hurting. As well as being able to strike the steel correctly, that has been my worst problem as I tend to hit the work piece with the bottom edge of the hammer. I know I need practice, as well as more instruction.

To sum it all up, I admit that my point of view was misplaced, that the ABS was originally started to keep the art of bladesmithing alive and continued to the future generations. That the Knife Makers Guild is alive and well.

This is the part where I graciously bow out of this thread and hope everyone understands that I have no ill intent toward the ABS or the Knife Makers Guild or any knife makers (whom I have the greatest admiration and respect for). I pride myself in being a nice guy, opinionated as I may be, I do know when to shut up! I will go back to reading,learning and asking questions. Thanks to all of you whom I have learned so much from whether you know it or not, your posts, WIP's and knives provide knowledge, inspiration and challenges. Rex
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In order to survive every organization must be able and willing to discuss criticism when it is without malice. You did well to add your comments, I for one took no offence.

This is off topic, email me about working with a bad shoulder or back.
Phil: email me about forging without the recessed ricasso and I will show you how. Nothing to it.

Necessity is plea for set standards is the plea for every infringement of freedom and creativity. It puts the judges and those judged in "the box".
 
Ed,

I guess you do know how to use quotation marks. But you are a professional writer. I guess you could teach me how to do it correctly.

I guess you are sensitive about negative brass statements such as the ones you quoted. It seems that most of the knives I have seen you make have single brass guards. Personally I like and use brass on occasion. I used it on one of the Limited Edition sets I did for Orvis last year. The addition sold out. I guess if brass were used with an acceptable fit and finish the ABS judges would pass it just as they have other materials. The only person I have ever heard talk down brass was Bill Moran. He said, &#8220;brass has no class&#8221; in a conversation about knife fittings. Other than that, yours are the only negative brass quotes I am aware of.

Symmetry is something that can be judged reasonably and shows a skill level has been achieved. The Quillion Dagger, this is a tough one and is a real test of the ever-difficult symmetry exercise. Again a judgeable test of a maker&#8217;s skill level. Is it art, some are some are not, to my eye anyway. I judged for the ABS one year, didn&#8217;t like it. People take this stuff way to seriously.

Could stock removal knives pass ABS standards, yes, if the applicant was willing to lie about how the knife was made? Bad decision all the way around. The ABS is and most likely will continue to be about forging. In the beginning of the building process anyway, then most of us all do a little stock removing. What would be the most difficult piece of equipment to live without in your shop? For me it would be my grinder.

Some Bladesmiths forge stainless steel I hear. Personally I don&#8217;t see the point. I would be afraid I would not be able to hold the proper heat range to not mess up the steel. All the stainless blade steel I have worked with is air hardening. Not good for forging but there is still a lot I don&#8217;t know.

I see a lot of winners that have gone through the ABS &#8220;hoops&#8221;. Including Ed Fowler.

Daniel
 
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