Ed Fowler

Ed Fowler said:
...I feel the ABS needs to break out of its present mold and would love to see a future set of JS test knives that were a real style show, filled with personal emotion through freedom of the makers, knives unique in function as well as beauty...
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Just for discussion, who and how could this be judged? Wouldn't this risk politics, favoritism and preferance over execution. Is narrowing the scope of a test so wrong if the ability to execute well is the thing being judged. I personally wouldn't want to test if emotion was being evaluated. How could the playing field be fair and level.

Nothing's perfect, but it seems to me that various cliques of artists would be excluded. I'm also of the opinion that there're mountains of forgetable 'art' that get elevated into consideration purely for pc reasons, but don't have merit to stand the test of time.

I always appreciate your reasoned and authoritative thoughts, Craig
 
Very well put Craig. :thumbup:

I'm glad Daniel has stepped into this thread to offer his wisdom. Mr. Winkler is not only great at articulating his thoughts in threads like this... he is one amazing bladesmith and an incredibly warm fellow to talk to at shows.

Thanks Daniel :)
 
If a level playing field is what is needed we have it now. I only suggest that it has its costs and question the benefit.
 
Hello Friends,

Many of these postulates are challenging ones to live into. The mission, methods, management (governance) and membership of an organization are not the same thing. Public nonprofit membership organizations are often peculiar hybrids of hierarchically and democratically governed initiatives. There are numerous facets to such business entities. Each has its own arena of activity and issues, and folks of empowerment (or non-empowerment) responsible for their care. For instance....

  1. Mission and goals: typically closely held by founders (and board of directors/trustees)
  2. Legal and fiscal corporate well being: ultimately the responsibility of the board of directors/trustees
  3. Day to day business operations: often managed by hired administrative personnel and/or member volunteers
  4. Delivery of services/products: typically by veteran members and/or contracted personnel
  5. Consumption of services/products: typically by membership and/or associated community
Sometimes membership has various voting rights and privileges that may effect change. Sometimes "public opinion" can initiate change. Perhaps one of the most effective avenues of change, and likely one of the most common ones, is via the consumer. If the service/product is bought and the organization's bottom line is healthy than a need is being met. If not, then the organization must change or it is likely to flounder.

Some people outgrow an organization or its focus. Some people never needed it to begin with. Some people are nourished by the fellowship of association (based on the groups theme/purpose/mission.) Some people are natural born anarchists and live to challenge authority. Some people never would do such. Group dynamics is a marvelous phenomenon and not to dismissed lightly.

Obviously, it is up to the individual to decide their place in relationship to an organization: member, consumer, provider, leader, manager, director, etc. Sometimes change is best effected by spinning off and creating a new organization. Sometimes that flops for everyone though.

Ultimately often the strength of an organization is not truly proved until the second generation of leadership has the opportunity and necessity to take the reigns. Again, the health of the bottom line is as good a barometer as any as to evaluating whether the organization is delivering desired services/products.

Hmmm, guess I rambled enough. All the best, Phil
 
I have about 3,000 other things I can think of doing at this moment that would be at least more pleasant than sitting on an anthill, and doing anything more that reading this thread with mild amusement is not one of them. However, I am very puzzled by the absence of any input from the one group of people who can definitively answer the question of what will pass the ABS judging, and what you can be told to make.

I know this because I am one of those people. Am I in any way part of the hierarchy or leadership of the group? Certainly not, but I am one of many mastersmiths who has been a judge in Atlanta to decide who gets the stamps. I have been called upon for this a number of times, for journeyman and master. Other folks, such as Ed Caffrey and others, who visit this forum, have as well and I am sure they are reading some of the claims in this thread and shaking their heads in disbelief.

This discussion is in need of some very basic facts about what knives you have to make to be a member of the group.

I always see styles and features I dislike in the judging but I don’t allow that to influence me. I have seen elements on daggers (one of my specialties) that is just not right and I wished I could nail the applicant for it, but I can’t since I feel I must respect other styles regardless of my tastes or historical observations.

I can say with certainty that this choil (“recessed ricasso”) issue is a total non-issue in the judging room, it would make no difference to me at all and I am the one giving the “yes” or “no” vote on the stamp, not some individual out on the show floor or even on the board. Furthermore I have never heard it mentioned in regards to any criteria for the judging, nor by other judges. And, by the way, judges are warned that if they discuss their thoughts on the knives in that room in a way that could influence the other judges, they will be pulled from the room. In the old days the board did much of the judging but today your knives are judged by your peers with MS ratings and I am very impressed with the lengths they go to for impartiality, and this is but one of the very positive changes I have seen from the group I originally joined.

So for the sake of a standardized judging the ABS asks that you make certain knives for your stamp, and that’s it. I think that if I want the title of “Master Bladesmith” I should be capable of making anything asked of me; after all we do it for customers all the time.

Despite criticisms of the group there is certainly no shortage of people volunteering to jump through their hoops, nor do I see anybody in a hurry return their stamps to a group that falls so short of their expectations.

Have fun with this one guys:rolleyes:, Sam you have an inquisitive mind to be respected.
 
I don't know what to make of the ABS. :confused:

The organization has as many faces as master smiths.

It's easy to run into a jerk MS and think the outfit stinks, or encounter a great and kind maker, and think it's the best thing ever.

All-in-all, I wish them the best.:)
 
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These types of threads pop up all the time about the ABS. Haven’t you ever wondered why?

There are some basic problems with the way it is structured and promoted.

Is it an academic organization or a vocational trade school? If it’s trying to be both, it’s doing neither very well.
 
far out! im learning so much!-marekz--my question started this thread--im so proud-lol/lol
 
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Tai Goo said:
Is it an academic organization or a vocational trade school?
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Does it even matter?
There are bad apples in every bunch.
Myself and many, many others, here and not here, benefit from the hard work and efforts put forth by many well-meaning people in the ABS.
Without the ABS's academia geared programs and hammer-ins, etc, there would be FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR fewer people in the knife making world and FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR fewer people/customers/clients who have been exposed to the knife world.
Support the good in the organizations you are associated with - which is not difficult to find in the ABS - and help make the not-so-good better or quit complaining.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
Without the ABS's academia geared programs and hammer-ins, etc, there would be FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR fewer people in the knife making world and FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR fewer people/customers/clients who have been exposed to the knife world.
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Those are assumptions...

In terms of exposing people to bladesmithing, I think the whole "backyard bladesmithing movement", and the efforts of individual smiths have brought a lot more people in without the confusion and nonsense. (Not to mention books, magazines etc...)

The reason I've stayed out of it and will continue to stay out of it,... is because it just doesn’t make sense to me.

It's a real mess.
 
Thank you Kevin Cashen. His statement is straight from the horses mouth and the correct statement regarding abs judging criteria.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
Does it even matter?
There are bad apples in every bunch.
Myself and many, many others, here and not here, benefit from the hard work and efforts put forth by many well-meaning people in the ABS.
Without the ABS's academia geared programs and hammer-ins, etc, there would be FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR fewer people in the knife making world and FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR fewer people/customers/clients who have been exposed to the knife world.
Support the good in the organizations you are associated with - which is not difficult to find in the ABS - and help make the not-so-good better or quit complaining.
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This is exactly how I feel too.
The ABS has done nothing except help my career as a maker. Everybody I've met in the ABS has helped me. I use it as a standard to go by. I still make stainless steel knives and always will but love the romance of forging and have looked up to Ed and all the other Masters before me. I cant think of even one bad thing to say about anybody or anything they do.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
So for the sake of a standardized judging the ABS asks that you make certain knives for your stamp, and that’s it. I think that if I want the title of “Master Bladesmith” I should be capable of making anything asked of me; after all we do it for customers all the time.
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i had never thought about it like that and now that i read it as such really like the JS and MS knife order thought

i had always thought of it sorta as a constriction of an artist (a thing im not a really fan of)

it is so true and such a treat when an order is taken on that they say heres the $$$ have fun

for me it would be fun to see what i would come up with for test knives as i specialize in kitchen knives and straight razors
 
I've never asked a question about knifemaking of an ABS rated smith who hasn't responded helpfully and with care. Tried for my JS once and failed, for good reason, I just wasn't ready. I will be back to try again. However, never have I met a bladesmith, ABS or not, who wasn't genuinely helpful and interested in assisting me to improve what I do.

You may find fault with the organization, but the members are fine folks. If you don't want to make 5 ABS "formula knives", then don't. If the rating is important to you, then do. The whole point is to make your craft the best it can be.

To this goal there are many paths.

Bill:)
 
Tai Goo said:
In terms of exposing people to bladesmithing, I think the whole "backyard bladesmithing movement", and the efforts of individual smiths have brought a lot more people in without the confusion and nonsense. (Not to mention books, magazines etc...)
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... and colleges, universities, private schools, independent study, etc.

In the grand scheme of things the ABS is a very small group which has generated a disproportionate amount of bickering... Why?
 
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Tai Goo said:
...In the grand scheme of things the ABS is a very small group which has generated a disproportionate amount of bickering... Why?
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Because in actuality the ABS is a Guild. A guild that rates their members. You have to perform to Guild standrds to reach a certain rating. They do not pretend to rate anyone outside of the Guild. I think knifemakers Like you, Tai, that has been making knives forever (o.k., half of forever) get your panties in a bunch over the Master rating. A little envy maybe, and the fact that if you joined the ABS right now you would be an apprentice, and have to work your way through the ranks.
The ABS can tell knife buyers that our members knives have passed these certain criteria in performance to receive their rating. This Knifemaker can build a knife.
For someone just starting out there is no better deal. In 6 years you can receive a Master rating. Build knives for that same period on your own, and see if you can sell a knife for the same amount as an ABS Master Smith.
As far as some Mastersmiths being an ass. There is one person on the board right now that I was told was a bit of an ass. But with the question I had everyone told me to check it out with him. At the 2008 Fall Piney Woods I appraoched him with my question. Being who he is everyone wanted a piece of his time. He took me aside, and we talked for quite a while, as he kept shooing people away. He wouldn't let me go until I under stood the the answer, and the reason. It is the same with every Master Smith that I have met, and that is quite a few now.
Bob
No spell check. Read at your own peril.
 
NickWheeler said:
I would just like to point out that I have never, EVER been met with snobbery or an unwillingness to share when dealing with ABS members. And that goes from when I was just starting out and asking for help to a point where I can call many of those men friends.

It hasn't mattered in my experience, if I was talking to the "old guard" as some like to refer to them which would be the fellas who've been around a good while like Jay Hendrickson, or the more recently minted Ms's like Burt Foster and Jason Knight... They are all first class men and first class makers.

Not calling anybody here a liar or anything like that, just speaking of the much different experiences I've had. :)
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Nick, my experience very much reflects your own. Time and again over a great many years, ABS members have gone out of their way to make me feel welcome and included, to offer information and advice and to celebrate the fellowship and camaraderie of a shared passion. "Snobbery and elitism" are the exact OPPOSITE of my experience with the organisation.

DWinkler said:
Generally speaking the knives I make are not standard ABS “judging” styles. The ABS it’s Board of Directors or the membership has never tried to tell me what style knives to make. To my knowledge, the ABS has not tried to tell any Bladesmith, with the exception of knives for judging, what knives to make.
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Thank you for addressing this Daniel - as every time that old tale about the ABS enforcing conformity is trotted out (and so often by the same people) your knives come immediately to mind. It suits the agenda of some to bang this particular drum, but the rhetoric is simply not grounded in reality.

Kevin R. Cashen said:
I can say with certainty that this choil (“recessed ricasso”) issue is a total non-issue in the judging room, it would make no difference to me at all and I am the one giving the “yes” or “no” vote on the stamp, not some individual out on the show floor or even on the board. Furthermore I have never heard it mentioned in regards to any criteria for the judging, nor by other judges. And, by the way, judges are warned that if they discuss their thoughts on the knives in that room in a way that could influence the other judges, they will be pulled from the room. In the old days the board did much of the judging but today your knives are judged by your peers with MS ratings and I am very impressed with the lengths they go to for impartiality, and this is but one of the very positive changes I have seen from the group I originally joined.

So for the sake of a standardized judging the ABS asks that you make certain knives for your stamp, and that’s it. I think that if I want the title of “Master Bladesmith” I should be capable of making anything asked of me; after all we do it for customers all the time.
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A most welcome factual commentary on standards and judging.

Roger
 
There’s two sides to everything.

The ABS has helped a lot of people get out of their “boxes” and into “ABS type” bladesmithing. That could be a good thing or a bad thing,… depending on your perspective, like anything else.

However, they don’t say that part of the mission of the ABS is to create the “Three Cs” in the greater knife making community,… confusion, contention and controversy. That’s the part that needs looking at, because it’s the part that doesn’t fit their mission statement.
 
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