Ed Fowler

Originally posted by Tai Goo
In the grand scheme of things the ABS is a very small group which has generated a disproportionate amount of bickering... Why?
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Why?
Looks like maybe you and Ed.
 
How about this?,… Let’s see if we can identify the problem, before we try to solve it?

What exactly is the problem?

(I'd consider it an honor to be lumped in with ED) :)
 
DWinkler said:
Why?
Looks like maybe you and Ed.
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It is a proven strategy that if you yell "The sky is falling!" loud enough, and often enough, you will get a few people to look up.

I don't think that the ABS - or any organization comprised of entirely fallible human beings - is perfect or entirely free from criticism. But a simmering font of dissension and controversy it most certainly is not.

Roger
 
I am a member of the ABS
I worked hard over 7 years to recieve the rating of Master Smith
I did not jump through any hoops
To join the ABS you simply pay your dues. To earn JS and then MS you must be a student and when you pass you should remain a student. Never become too proud to learn. If you are not a member of the ABS you dont need to worry or complain about it.
 
J.KNIGHT said:
.....If you are not a member of the ABS you dont need to worry or complain about it.
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That is true only so long as ABS doesn't try to secure market advantage by denigrating other forms of making knives. That has not always been the case. (This is nicely described by Kevin Cashen in an article on his website.)

I was a member at that time, and declined to renew because I disliked the tactic. I still object to that today. Preferring forged blades is fine and dandy; imbuing them with superiority simply because of preference is not.

There's a lot of that in knifemaking (and many other arenas; witness "Ford vs Chevy"), and it's certainly not limited to the forged vs stock removal debate. If it becomes intitutionalized, though, it becomes a problem for everyone. Then they definitely have a right to speak up.
 
"if you don't like it turn in your stamps and quit".
Several of us had that discussion at the last Blade Show.

We decided that we would remain, for one reason, in memory of and our appreciation for those who started the ABS. The dedication to the forged blade and appreciation of individual members they shared and encouraged has more than earned our respect.

Those who consider critics as enemies only limit their future.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
?? Really?
I haven't run into one yet and have met quite a few. Quite a few.
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My first face-to-face encounter with a MS was about 10 years ago and was kinda freaky. I suppose this individual is an anomaly, but I'll tell the story anyway for any who care to hear it.

I had been doing some pattern welding for a few years for a few European customers. Pretty specialized stuff. It was a full-time gig, and I kept pretty much to myself about it.

I ran into an older guy that invited me to a forging demo,with a 'real-live ABS Master Smith,' so I thought I'd go. I never had occasion to get involved with a club or anything so it sounded fun.

I didn't know it at the time, but this older guy had told the folks at the demo some things about my operation before I arrived, namely that I was running my forge and salt on natural gas.

When I arrived, I got waylaid by the MS and a small gang of his acolytes about this. :eek:

He walked right up and said, "Are you the guy that says he welds with natural gas?"
I was kinda taken aback."Ummm, yeah ...?" I said.
"You can't forge weld with natural gas ... It's not hot enough!" he said.
He was adamant and seemed pretty irritated.

I collected myself, not sure if there was a punch-line coming or something, and mentioned that I had just done so the day before.
He shook his head and insisted that it could not be done!
It was like I had stepped into the middle of some kind of political controversy or something.
"All I can tell you is that I do it all the time ... two burners and a blower, On-inch line right off the main, residential pressure," I said kinda sheepishly.
Well, he pretty much called me a liar and stomped off, groupies in tow.

Believe it or not, I decided to stay and watch.
I watched him struggle with a small billet and a rickety hydraulic press for about an hour. He was trying to draw with flat dies.
I also saw him advise someone that brought a pretty obvious fake-damascus dagger that all it needed was more time in the etchant.

I thought, "Well, if that's the ABS, they can have it!":grumpy:

Over the years, I've "met" other MS (almost entirely on-line) that have reshaped my opinion quite a bit. Naturally, I'd proudly associate with Bruce or Kevin, or any number of great ABS members. I don't know how the organization is structured, but I don't think SoCal is the center of the ABS universe. The idea of being subject to this particular individual for advancement or binding critique is enough for me to keep my distance, though. :o
 
I have not the experience with the ABS or the knowledge to add much to this discussion, but was wondering something....

So the titles JS and MS are earned through hard work and examination by peers. Similar in the way that a PhD is earned by hard work and examination by peers. However, I've never heard of anyone asking for a PhD back. I guess I'd always thought of the title of Master Smith as a permanent title, not something to be removed by the whimsy of an organization. Ed, if you ever left, I wonder if you could have a stamp made up that says: "Ed Fowler, Former MS". :jerkit:

--nathan
 
Silver Pilate" I have never used my JS or MS stamp, I feel my knives speak for themselves and do not require endorcement by an organization.
I did enjoy your comments about "former Mastersmith"!
 
It's not easy to be a part of a society of individuals and carry a singular focus of activity forward in a public way. It's a LOT of hard work. To a degree, the fact that there are folks critical of your work can be a good barometer that you are at least actually DOING something.

There is a very famous adage that has something to do with, you can't please all of the people... Ain't that the truth! It is inherent in the marvel of human dynamics. Any group, ANY group, will have its dissenters and nay sayers...or they aren't an active group actually doing an active public work. And. the organization will likely have its share of "colorful characters." After all it's simply a collection of individuals. That's just the way it goes.
 
This is interesting to me.

I am sure he ABS, like any other organization or group; might have some individual members that some might consider a-holes.... that is probably pretty much a given.

That being said......... I have only met in person one ABS/ MS and that was about a year ago. I was introduced to him by a mutual friend by way of email.

I won't mention his name but he was "Class of 1989". I called him up and went to his house while visiting his area. We went out to lunch and after that he answered all my "stupid" questions, showed me his shop and explained things the way he did them..... the whole 9 yards, so to speak.
We talked for several hours...... He was most gracious with his time and it was beyond a treat for me.

A more pleasant or helpful man I have never run across..... with the exception of a knife maker here in Alabama close to my home town that I have become friends with.

So, while not knowing very much about the ABS...... the MS I met was a super guy who was very down to earth & practical in his opinions and views.
Very straight forward............. ;)

Just my .02

EDIT: Upon reflecting further upon this..... He talked about some things that probably fit right into the "slot" of what this thread is about. They did not mean a whole lot to me at the time but are starting to make sense [to me] as I read & re-read this thread and the opinions expressed.
 
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teacher said:
... the MS I met was a super guy who was very down to earth & practical in his opinions and views.
Very straight forward............. ;)
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I'd be willing to bet that's the norm.:thumbup::)

I did run into the "natural gas" MS again, just last year at a show.
One of his posse brought him over to look at my folders (We were doing this sort of hot-rod flame inlay 2-tone thing with texture and had one on the table.)

He took the knife and studied it intently and asked how I was doing the inlay.
I started to describe how the piece was constructed and how we're getting the sharp details with round cutters ...
He interrupts and asks, "CNC?"
I said, " ... Yes" and continued to describe the intricacies of the process (which I wrongfully assumed was the nut of his question) when he shoved the (folded) knife back at me and turned away with a slight hiss, leaving me there kinda mid sentence. The cadre that orbited him likewise pivoted and left me standing there alone.

I just sat back down looking kinda like this: :rolleyes:
 
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Wow. Someone was pretty full of himself, huh?

My experience in talking with MS or JS rated makers has been entirely via message boards or via email. Unfortunately, there's just nobody in this region with those designations. But from my limited experience communicating with smiths, I've found them to extremely helpful and humble as a rule. I guess there's going to be a bad apple in every bunch that can't see beyond the wall of feces they've stacked around themselves as a buffer against injured ego.

--nathan
 
I personally don't think that all ABS members work looks alike. Not anymore than saying all stock removal makers work looks alike.

As far as a lot of makers working in that "style" rather than looking at it like some sort of "forced view of art" did any of the naysayers ever think that maybe.... JUST MAYBE the guys making that style of knife actually LIKE making that style of knife????

A lot of this stuff is simply rumor that gets spread as fact. I had a knife that was clay hardened and polished when I went for my Js stamp. For months before I tested, I had SEVERAL people tell me the ABS would fail me for submitting such a blade because there are Mastersmiths saying it's the American Bladesmith Society and not the Japanese Bladesmith Society. Well, not only did they not fail me for submitting that particular knife, they gave me the much sought after George Peck award for best Js submission. How bout them apples???




Not to get into a peeing match Mr. Fowler... but I find it kind of interesting to see your take on that... Considering all students of your work make work that looks just like yours. Do you allow anything other than 52100, brass, and sheephorn to be used in your shop??? Just curious. :)

As per testing standards forcing us to all make the same knives, the year I tested for Js there were a lot of different blades in that test room. I didn't see any blades that would have been confused with mine, or vice versa for any of the other makers.

Testing standards are something that need to be in place for sake of consistency.


I see all this talk about how the ABS is impairing a smiths artistic vision and what not.... but they're only asking for certain requisites to be met when testing. It's just like testing in ANY field.

I'm just finishing a welding degree and a machinist degree. There are some testing standards that have been followed in both programs.

One I'll point out is the WABO (Washington Association of Building Officials). This is a weld test done in vertical and overhead positions on 1" thick plate with a low hydrogen rod.

Just like the ABS judges, the official who judges your work has a a list of standards he's looking for. And just like the ABS testing, there are various levels of work seen. Also similarly, it's a test that involves both visual, and physical testing.

Once I obtained my WABO card, it just means I could pass the standards set for the card on that day. It doesn't mean I am any kind of great welder... Nor does it in some way force me to weld in the vertical and overhead positions with 7018 on 1" plate. It just says that I can (or at least could the day I tested).

In fact, I'd rather be a TIG welder working with fine, detailed projects using exotic metals. And since earning my WABO card, that is just the kind of work I've been studying.

My good friend Jason Knight pointed it out succingtly and very well. You work hard for the designation to prove that you can do it.... then you keep learning and growing and developing.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
 
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Kevin,

I guess the thread title “Ed Fowler” sort of limits some people’s interest in the topic. The other ABS judges that monitor this forum may just not realize the actual subject matter being discussed.

Fitzo,

The job of the American Bladesmith Society is to promote the forged blade above all else. I would be surprised and disappointed if the goal of the organization was to do anything else.

"if you don't like it turn in your stamps and quit".
Several of us had that discussion at the last Blade Show.

We decided that we would remain, for one reason, in memory of and our appreciation for those who started the ABS. The dedication to the forged blade and appreciation of individual members they shared and encouraged has more than earned our respect.
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Ed,

How honorable of you and your group to stay ABS members despite the statements that you don’t agree with the direction of the organization and don’t need validation of the Society. Don’t you think that Bill Moran and the other early ABS Bladesmiths would rather you support the ABS, strive to become a board member and make a positive difference rather than complain? If you have a better plan, organize it and make a presentation to the ABS board of directors. Don’t feel like you and your friends need to stay ABS members just to help support the rest of us. Fly away, be free, we will get along just fine.
 
DWinkler said:
Fitzo,

The job of the American Bladesmith Society is to promote the forged blade above all else. I would be surprised and disappointed if the goal of the organization was to do anything else.
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That sounds almost like, "the ends justify the means," Daniel.

Sounds like modern tribalism to me. To each their own. Not my bag. Enjoy.
 
Throwing my 2 cents into the fire.....

Firstly, a bit of mea culpa. I told Rex via PM about the Guild and that membership was down and it wasn't quite as powerful as I remember back in the day. If my comments were misrepresented I'm sorry for any anger or chapped butts, I didn't mean for it to sound like it was a gutshot doe.

Now on to my bit of perspective on this whole argument. I've had this same argument in my other main hobby, baseball umpiring. There's a lot of similarities between the two groups. There's the usual arguments between "part time umpires" and the pros, old school, new school, 90 degrees, 2 steps fair and a bunch of other esoteric topics that only a few umpires understand or enjoy.

Another big thing is evaluation of umpires. If you attend a minor league game (low AA or less) you'll see all the umpire's signal, plate and base stances and base positioning are the same... why? At pro school if you're after a job you have to perform in the manner prescribed by the leagues.. that's Box Stance, hammer strike and out signals and some other minor things.. you get the point. Why shove everyone into that cookie cutter? Because it removes one layer of distractions from assessing the umpire. When you move up to higher levels and are allowed, yes ALLOWED to use other stances and signals you've proven your ability to call ball/strike/safe and out.

If you don't like to umpire pro school style can you stil umpire? Yes, just won't be in the show, you can still make good money and noone will bother you. You want in the show and earn your patch? start jumping through the hoops. We were having fall tryouts for my college association a few years back, there was a guy that drove about 200 miles to tryout because we paid better than his college association, he could call games on the border and it'd help everyone. He ranked about even with another umpire so the evaluators asked him to change his out mechanic for the next try out game later that evening. He told them no, they told him thanks, no need to work the game. It's just like that with any organization that ranks you. They need to have a standard to judge all members by and if you want to get a rank, you got to play by their rules.

I've met very few MS, JS, Voting, Probationary Guild Member or for that matter a knife maker that wasn't helpful. There are few pieces of poop in every green pasture, this craft isn't very different. There's room for all, even the people that don't like being in the room.

Ah well...... not to hijack the thread but I heard you can make good knives out of bed frame steel..... :p
 
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