Edge Pro Apex 4 Vs Ruixin

[Barmaley]

I know that usually you get what you pay for. I also found that it is not always true. Edge Pro Apex 4 is ten times more than Ruixin. Does it really work better and in which way?

Another question: according to Vadim @wootzblade the best blades' angle is 12 degrees no matter what steel. Do I need the angle to be adjustable or I can do with a simple set up for 12 grade since then it will be very easy to make DIY machine of few pieces of metal scrap but invest in a better stones?

 

[RustyIron]

I've only had two guided sharpeners. The first was an EdgePro Professional Clone. I won't mention the origin because I got smacked down in the past for politicizing a post on a non-political forum. Nevertheless, various parts on the Clone needed to be repaired periodically. That was ok, because it was cheap and I didn't have high expectations. My work wasn't too bad on the Clone. Eventually I threw down for good stones, and learned that with stones, you get what you pay for. Eventually the repaired Clone lost its luster for me, and I picked up a real EdgePro Professional. It's night and day in regards to accuracy and repeatability... and I haven't had to repair it yet. The stones the come with the EP are head and shoulders above what comes with the Clone. And the quality of the work that comes off the EP is far superior to that from the Clone.

So if you're asking if you can do good work on the Clone, sure you can. Can you do superior work on the EdgePro? Yes. Is it worth the difference in price? That's something only you can say. For me, absolutely.

 

[scottc3]

Hi Barmaley, How have you been sharpening your knives since posting a few months back? Heads up, in case a clamped system will do, Worksharp has a new clamped guided kit that continues to use the various engineered materials of their other sharpeners. Tubes has a factory vid and 1 other 1 as of a couple days ago. And maximus posted a short review in this forum. Price is more then reasonable.
Tons of DIY ideas, plans, n parts list right here, just search BF.
Speaking of the clone kits, there is a big thread right here in maintenance as well.
Good luck-

 

[Barmaley]

Hi Barmaley, How have you been sharpening your knives since posting a few months back?

I started my sharpening journey several months ago when my wife complained that your knives became utterly dull. No matter what I did I could not make the knives to cut. The harder I tried the dulled they were. Hours of youtube and forums reading, studying pictures of magnified edges did not help either. Then I got a ceramic rod and on advice from this forum Norton JB8. Immediately the knives became razor sharp. Everything became even better then I for diamond 325/1200 plate. Now my wife complain that the knives are too sharp for her and she is afraid of using them after cutting herself several times. I guess her learning curve is behind her since I sis not hear about any accident for about 2 months. However I am not happy with the edges I can get. They cut yellow pages well in along the fibers of the paper but occasionally have rips across the fibers. I guess my problem is that the highest stone I got is 1200 diamond plate and I am not sure about grit of Idahone white rods (I found their red rods completely useless). I made several strops but only have white compound and yellow flexcut gold. I guess I need to get green one. I am also thinking about getting 3000 stone but A) my wife is against any new sharpening gear because the "knives already too sharp" and B) I could not find any oil stone which is in 3000 range.

I just found that it is very easy to keep knives constantly sharp since before every cooking I do a few strokes on either a ceramic rod or a fine diamond plate (actually 4-5 strokes) and if I am not too lazy to do to my office (I don't keep strops in the kitchen) few passes on a strop. I am sure my approach is far from optimal (I have not a theory on that happens with the burr after ceramic rods few passes one on each side, I am afraid I got a wire edge of a microburr) but I am able to cut carrots and chicken well. Nevertheless, I feel that I want to improve my technique to achieve better sharpness. I would appreciate any suggestion.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Get the Edge Pro, don't waste money on junk.

Over the years you'll pile up a bunch of gadgets and gizmos trying things out and trying to pinch Penny's.

Well, it all adds up and ends up in the junk box off to a donation center, so just get the edge pro and worry about more important things.

No, you don't run every knife to 12dps, you'll make some funky wide bevels on production blades and it will take forever to reprofile and create a 12dps from the stock grind and edge on a fixed angle system , especially on the thicker behind the edge production grinds.

12dps is also a trade off, sure it has better cutting ability and edge rentention in controlled CUT testing.

However, if one uses the edge for non cutting tasks and makes contact with hard features and erroneously use lateral forces than a 12dps flat bevel created on a fixed angle system is more prone to damage.

Lastly, soft steel and marginal heat treatment on some knives will not hold a lower angle well.

I know that usually you get what you pay for. I also found that it is not always true. Edge Pro Apex 4 is ten times more than Ruixin. Does it really work better and in which way?

Another question: according to Vadim @wootzblade the best blades' angle is 12 degrees no matter what steel. Do I need the angle to be adjustable or I can do with a simple set up for 12 grade since then it will be very easy to make DIY machine of few pieces of metal scrap but invest in a better stones?

 

[scottc3]

Over the years you'll pile up a bunch of gadgets and gizmos trying things out

Very true for hobbyist, says one who just got a used Worksharp Ken Onion off the exchange to try for garage n kitchen, and WSKO leather stropping belts for folders, freehand. I'm wired to pay attention to the journey, so that bias says try your hand at building a kit if you have time and resources, as you are thinking about that option.

according to Vadim @wootzblade the best blades' angle is 12 degrees no matter what steel.

Yeah, no, what Big Brown Bear said, although I suspect a misunderstanding of what Vadim said. For us, beyond playing, we keep coming back to 40 degrees inclusive... mostly. I have some 0.08" and 0.09" folders at 30 degrees.

it will take forever to reprofile and create a 12dps from the stock grind and edge on a fixed angle system , especially on the thicker behind the edge production grinds.

Using KME with flipped stone holder I can get 12 degrees quickly and easily on cheap kitchen knives and appropriate sized folders.

 

[Ben Dover]

15 and 20 per side allows the blade to be "touched up" on Crock Sticks or Sharpmakers.

IME, any advantage gained in cutting is more than overcome by the convenience of easy touch up.

 

[Blues]

15 and 20 per side allows the blade to be "touched up" on Crock Sticks or Sharpmakers.

IME, any advantage gained in cutting is more than overcome by the convenience of easy touch up.

So true...even though I have an Edge Pro Apex (for several years), and leave it set up in my shop, I rarely use it. But it's like a mental / emotional support in that I know that it's there if I need it for a troublesome blade.

Generally, I find that I freehand on diamond, ceramic, India, SiC, water stone, whatever...get it down to whatever level of thinness I feel it calls for, and finish with a few strokes on the Sharpmaker to even out my edge and produce a micro-bevel.

So convenient. No muss, no fuss.

 

[Mikel_24]

Does the Edge Pro Apex 4 allow you to flip the blade without reclamping? Any time you take the knife out of the clamp to flip it, you might not do it exactly in the same spot (distance from the edge, distance from the handle, etc) which could mean you are sligthly changing the angle of the stones on the edge every time. You could make a few pencil marks or whatever, but that gets old quickly and it is slooooooooooow.

I have owned the Ruixin Pro RX‑008 (the one that clamps to the table with a cast steel clamp and allows you to rotate the knife back and forth without touching the clamp) and it is quite handy. Stone selection is fair (I only use diamond stones,80, 120, 400, 600, 1200 and 2000, although I usually stop at 600 and then strop) and don't see anything wrong with it. Hardware is good and the contraption seems solid.

Mikel

 

[scottc3]

Does the Edge Pro Apex 4 allow you to flip the blade without reclamping?

Yes, and the table clamp with suction base on Pro model is solid while still allowing for instant repositioning and unit articulation. Love the base!

 

[Mikel_24]

Yes, and the table clamp with suction base on Pro model is solid while still allowing for instant repositioning and unit articulation. Love the base!

When I checked the pictures I couldn't figure out how to flip the blade to sharpen the other side whithout reclamping... I just watched a couple videos about how to use it and seems like the blade just "sits" there, as it is not phisically clamped anywhere. You hold the blade flat and steady against the rest stop with one hand and use the other hand to move the stone back and forth. Then you flip it, switch hands (blade/stone) and do the other side.

The benefit I can see in this system is that you can do long blades at once as you can slide the spine of the edge along the back stop. If the blade height is not the same along the whole blade (which is usually how knives are made) the angle is going to vary sligthly. There is also the inevitable manual error of not keeping the edge perfectly perpendicular to the stone, as nothing prevents you from changing it as you progress in the sharpening (straight spines ok, curved ones, not so much).

From my point of view and the knives I sharpen... I have to say that the Ruixin I mentioned above seems like a better choice.

Mikel

 

[fvdk]

I have to say that the Ruixin I mentioned above seems like a better choice.

You do not mention a Ruixin model but I think that the RX-008 model with the 360° Rotation Flip Design would certainly be a better choice.
I have one since they released it and I am very happy with it.

 

[Mikel_24]

.....
I have owned the Ruixin Pro RX‑008 (the one that clamps to the table with a cast steel clamp and allows you to rotate the knife back and forth without touching the clamp) and it is quite handy....

You do not mention a Ruixin model but I think that the RX-008 model with the 360° Rotation Flip Design would certainly be a better choice.
I have one since they released it and I am very happy with it.

I did . And yes, this is the one I own and the one I was using as a reference.

I need to buy/make a naked stone-base to make my own loaded strop for those super-polished-truly-unusable-but-instagram-worthy edges... Just for looks.

Mikel

 

[Ben Dover]

edge-Pro does not clamp the blade.

 

[maximus83]

15 and 20 per side allows the blade to be "touched up" on Crock Sticks or Sharpmakers.

IME, any advantage gained in cutting is more than overcome by the convenience of easy touch up.

This is tricky. Buck for example, currently recommends edges in the 13-16 dps range, based on their extensive experience and CATRA testing. If you go with 15 dps on most EDC type and utility knives, as suggested here it's solid because it's both within Buck's recommended range, AND you can maintain it easily on inexpensive sharpeners such as Spyderco Sharpmaker and some of the Worksharp manual sharpeners, which will sharpen down to 15 dps. Lots of knife manufacturers recommend more obtuse edges, typically 17 or 20 dps, as here.

On the other hand, you have folks looking at the CATRA data and drawing different conclusions. Here is a detailed discussion of the relationship between edge angle, cutting performance, and edge retention. In this case the finding is that lower angles are generally better, even as low as 10 dps. I have started to shift to lower angles on a lot of my blades, either 10 or 12 dps. This is also consistent with @wootzblade recommendations. All my acute edge knives are currently hand sharpened, since I don't have a sharpener here that can handle those acute angles. I'm considering getting an Edge Pro so I can work with lower angles using a tool sometimes, but that's a separate discussion.

Maybe the best way to look at it is: if you want to use a standard, affordable sharpen to easily maintain your EDC and utility knives, then yeah, I'd stick with 15 dps and use Sharpmaker. If however you're willing to freehand sharpen, or use a guided sharpener that goes to more acute angles, I would indeed go with 12 dps or even lower, say 10 dps on knives designated as thin slicers.

 

[Ben Dover]

Perhaps my memory is faulty here, but it seems like I remember reading that Ben Dale has had his best results with 21-23 DPS.

At any rate, not counting kitchen knives, I've been well satisfied with 15 DPS.

 

[maximus83]

^Yes they do say along those lines in their Apex user manual:

We have changed our angle recommendations. 21 degrees is the best angle for most knives. The exceptions are very thick blades at 23 or 24 degrees, Japanese cooking knives 17 or 18 degrees, 15 degrees for thinning and 10 degrees or lower for serrated knives.

Not sure what they are basing that on, but while I have nothing but respect for their sharpening systems and am checking those out compared to the Hapstone sharpener, it would be interesting to know if that's because of the design of their sharpener (meaning: it CAN sharpen at acute angles, but doesn't do it well), or if it's because they are looking at some research or testing and decided these are the optimal angles in general, for all knives. I'm actually looking at their Apex system right now, as I want to upgrade from the frequent frustrations/limitations of Sharpmaker for the cases where I'm using a guided setup, but I don't want to get into this or the Hapstone (the other option I'm looking at) if they are going to struggle doing low DPS edges.

What I've been reading from Buck, from Spyderco, as well as from very 'data-driven' folks like Larrin that I linked to above, wootzblade, and even seeing the trend among some of the professional sharpeners on this site, is a trend towards thinner edges. I don't know if it's universal, but definitely some respected companies or sharpeners seem to be moving that way the last few years. I don't have all or even most of my knives at acute angles yet, but have a pretty good set of them, both folders and kitchen knives, reprofiled to anywhere from 10 to 14 dps. On the ones that I've done this, I've been really happy with the results.

Anyway going back to OP comment, a key consideration in making his choice--if anybody has that info--is whether he wants to maintain his knives at lower dps edge angles, and if so, how these 2 sharpeners he's looking at actually handle acute angles. I was under the impression EP Apex could go down to 10 degrees, and could even do that with small/skinny knives if you get the small blade adapter or whatever. Have you tried that with your EP?

 

[Lynn Westfall]

This is tricky. Buck for example, currently recommends edges in the 13-16 dps range, based on their extensive experience and CATRA testing. If you go with 15 dps on most EDC type and utility knives, as suggested here it's solid because it's both within Buck's recommended range, AND you can maintain it easily on inexpensive sharpeners such as Spyderco Sharpmaker and some of the Worksharp manual sharpeners, which will sharpen down to 15 dps. Lots of knife manufacturers recommend more obtuse edges, typically 17 or 20 dps, as here.

On the other hand, you have folks looking at the CATRA data and drawing different conclusions. Here is a detailed discussion of the relationship between edge angle, cutting performance, and edge retention. In this case the finding is that lower angles are generally better, even as low as 10 dps. I have started to shift to lower angles on a lot of my blades, either 10 or 12 dps. This is also consistent with @wootzblade recommendations. All my acute edge knives are currently hand sharpened, since I don't have a sharpener here that can handle those acute angles. I'm considering getting an Edge Pro so I can work with lower angles using a tool sometimes, but that's a separate discussion.

Maybe the best way to look at it is: if you want to use a standard, affordable sharpen to easily maintain your EDC and utility knives, then yeah, I'd stick with 15 dps and use Sharpmaker. If however you're willing to freehand sharpen, or use a guided sharpener that goes to more acute angles, I would indeed go with 12 dps or even lower, say 10 dps on knives designated as thin slicers.

W

 

[Lynn Westfall]

I have had an EdgePro Professional Model for probably 15 years and have been 100% satisfied. When I got the magnetic table option added it was even easier to use. I make knives as a hobby. For most people the Apex is all you will ever need. Buy it and after getting used to it you will be able to sharpen anything.

 

[Diemaker]

My 1997 model Apex, different stone rod pivot setup, will do 9.8 degrees without a blade guide knob in the way. The knob will add 2? degrees or so but can be substituted with an oval head screw and t-nut if needed, which I did on mine.