Edge Pro Diamond Max stones???

[Gottagofishn]

Diemaker,
Totally off topic... trying to figure out how to send you a pm. I'd like more information about diamond stropping emulsions. Do you sell said emulsions?

 

[Blues]

Diemaker,
Totally off topic... trying to figure out how to send you a pm. I'd like more information about diamond stropping emulsions. Do you sell said emulsions?

You can't send a DM without a paid membership at the "Basic" level or above.

 

[Diemaker]

Thank you very much for taking the time to make and post your video!

Could you please clarify the last comment : ~ the grit doesn't matter . . . the coarser stones are a bigger deal because they need it less .

The Video stops before I can read it and tapping it to stop before that makes a bunch of stuff super imposed over the text .

Anyway what was that about the coarser stones and or some stones needing it less but something about it is a big deal ?
Thank you .

The "grit" I am referring to is what it is made of. It doesn't matter if you have Sic, Alox, or sand, as long as it is the right size, it will all work.

I find the grit needs to be big enough for the coarser stones. If it is too small, the stones will never cut as fast as they are capable of. If the grit is too big for the finer stones, they will still work fine, but it will remove more stone than is needed and leave a rougher surface. This is why the size of the loose abrasive is more important for the coarser stones, the 80, 250, and sort of the 450. The coarser stones will go far longer between dressings than the finer ones.

 

[Diemaker]

Diemaker,
Totally off topic... trying to figure out how to send you a pm. I'd like more information about diamond stropping emulsions. Do you sell said emulsions?

Yes, with a water or oil carrier. The oil is specific to my polymer strops, and works far, far better on them than anything else. I also put much more abrasive in the oil based emulsions than the water based. I found it is very easy to put too much diamond emulsion on leather causing severe foil burring and convexing of the apex. The oil based emulsions on my polymer strops barely convex the apex so I can put more abrasives in the emulsion. My philosophy is to put as much abrasive in the emulsion as possible without causing problems, and I feel I am at the maximum amount in my emulsions. Most 1oz emulsions spend more on the bottle and certainly on it and the label than the diamond that goes into it, except for polycrystalline diamonds, which do cost quite a bit more than monocrystalline diamonds. I have been told by very well educated people where I buy my diamonds from that you don't create nearly enough pressure when stropping to break polycrystalline diamonds down, so they are a total waste of money in stropping.

Diamonds on a strop love to make foil burrs. They are great at polishing the bevel but not at deburring. Soft aluminum oxide does very little to polish the bevel, but is excellent at deburring, even on Maxamet. I firmly believe that diamonds are vastly overused in stropping. If you want to deburr by stropping, then I think 99% of the time you would be far better using a soft white aluminum oxide. I also think you would be better off applying dry abrasives to your strops so you don't contaminate your strop with the carrier. This is why I picked pure water as my carrier, but it causes some issues with leather, like shrinking and curling the edges. You do not want to make your strop any softer than it already is with oils or conditioners, you want it as slick and easy to pull your knife across as possible. The more drag is has on your knife the more it will convex your apex. I have even seen a strop with a little drag from using Saddle Butter as the carrier break the apex off of a Maxamet edge. I originally thought using a leather conditioner as the carrier would be a good idea, but found out it is not.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Got my 80 grit max stone and went to town on a badly worn edge of an S30V Griptilian. I wet the stone down by keeping a small container of water next to me planning to pop the stone out as needed to rewet.

I'm clearly still doing something wrong because I don't see the 80 cutting much if any better than the 250. I even swapped out to make sure it wasn't my imagination. And that thing loaded up QUICK. I added a few drops of Dawn to the water and I guess that helped. But I ended up going to the Tormek to finish reprofiling the edge since the 80 was taking so long.

Just using finger tips to grasp the ball handle to work the stone back and forth so I'm not using too much pressure. Or is S30V just not the right steel for these? Are these more for S90V or the super harder steels like Maxamet that are all 60 + HRC???

 

[Diemaker]

Got my 80 grit max stone and went to town on a badly worn edge of an S30V Griptilian. I wet the stone down by keeping a small container of water next to me planning to pop the stone out as needed to rewet.

I'm clearly still doing something wrong because I don't see the 80 cutting much if any better than the 250. I even swapped out to make sure it wasn't my imagination. And that thing loaded up QUICK. I added a few drops of Dawn to the water and I guess that helped. But I ended up going to the Tormek to finish reprofiling the edge since the 80 was taking so long.

Just using finger tips to grasp the ball handle to work the stone back and forth so I'm not using too much pressure. Or is S30V just not the right steel for these? Are these more for S90V or the super harder steels like Maxamet that are all 60 + HRC???

Have you dressed it since you used it dry? The 80 should be much faster than the 250 so it sounds like it needs to be dressed. The coarser the stone the more pressure you can use. How much depends on how heavy your stone arm is but this is something you will have to learn. The more pressure you use the more you will have to dress it, but I would say you should get around 2,000 to 3,000 strokes minimum between dressings with the 80, and close to that for the 250.

What do you mean loaded up quick? I do not expect this of the 80. Due to the rough surface it holds water the best of all the stones, with the 4000 the least, and I find it doesn't really load up/ glaze over. I find I usually do about 40 strokes between wetting the stone.

I think these stones work with any steel above 50ish HRC, but I feel that way about any diamond stones. I don't like how diamonds work with softer steels.

There is no comparison speed wise between a manual guided sharpener and a powered sharpener, powered wins hands down.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Have you dressed it since you used it dry?

The 250 still needs to be dressed. I need to get on that since I bought the grit but I need to find a piece of glass. The 80 was brand new when I started using it.

What do you mean loaded up quick?

Probably guilty of not using the correct terminology. Dross? It loaded up with dross and started cutting slower. I keep mentally comparing these stones to regular diamond plates. They're totally different but again in my head I keep thinking diamonds should be shredding this steel.

I find I usually do about 40 strokes between wetting the stone.

I haven't been counting strokes so much as if it's not dripping then I wet it again.

I don't like how diamonds work with softer steels.

Years ago when I first went diamond I tried to sharpen some cheapies and thought maybe I was doing everything wrong then too. Turned out it was just cheap chinesium with junk HT and the plates were struggling. As soon as I broke out some old Lansky hones they gummed up just as bad.

There is no comparison speed wise between a manual guided sharpener and a powered sharpener, powered wins hands down.

Totally not meant as a dig on anything. And the Tormek wheel is the standard wheel it comes with, not the CBN or diamond wheel. It's just such a pain to setup and so easy to mess up with. Easy to go from an edge just right to a blade with a smile...

 

[Wowbagger]

The "grit" I am referring to is what it is made of. It doesn't matter if you have Sic, Alox, or sand, as long as it is the right size, it will all work.

I find the grit needs to be big enough for the coarser stones. If it is too small, the stones will never cut as fast as they are capable of. If the grit is too big for the finer stones, they will still work fine, but it will remove more stone than is needed and leave a rougher surface. This is why the size of the loose abrasive is more important for the coarser stones, the 80, 250, and sort of the 450. The coarser stones will go far longer between dressings than the finer ones.

Excellent .
Thank You

Soft aluminum oxide does very little to polish the bevel, but is excellent at deburring

Sounds like I am pretty on track with my stropping . . . recently .

Kind of off topic of your superior diamond tools :
About the only time I debur on a strop these days is for stainless and very basic under potential (low hardness) carbon steel .
(the "good" , hard , high alloy blades debur on the stones).
I have taken to putting the aluminum oxide (Gold colored carvers stropping material in cake form) . . . scraping dust off the cake then rubbing it into a denim strop with my finger. Strop mounted on an Edge Pro plate .

So , if you will , talk about strop material for that use . For deburing my Case Trappers etc. .
How do you feel about the lumpy denim vs. a Polymer (?micro fiber?) strop ?

I then take a couple breif passes on finish side leather . . . plain or with 1 micron diamond . On the Edge Pro
It was recently pointed out to me that 3 micron is better but that's what's on that strop for now . No big deal for the basic blades ; 3 micron just better for the good stuff

I got the Denim idea from Dr. Kraichuk's book Knife Deburing . . . he talks about denim . (personally it seems to me he is creating problems just from using powered wheels / strops that we don't have to deal with in hand sharpening . . . but what do I know )

The coarser the stone the more pressure you can use.

Totally this
I've done to sheeet TON OF thinning behind the edge and reprofiling with this 80 grit stone and it is : As If From The Gods !

I have always said , for diamond , I tend to get my foot up on it when trying to remove some significant metal (obviously exaggerating just a touch) just don't use hard force when one is working on a sharpish edge / apex ; that's what wrecks the finer stones .

 

[Gottagofishn]

I use a 1x30 leather belt on a slow speed grinder for stropping anything not ground on the Tormek. I too use Aluminum Oxide ( Tormek's) for all heavy stropping. If I use diamonds, it's for a final strop. Right now my diamond strop is loaded with 6mu diamonds. I have a strop loaded with 1mu diamonds but only use that if I'm attempting a mirrored bevel. Honestly, I don't think I can see any difference between 6um and 1um, I can't imagine an end user could.
As far as Oiled leather being softer, I imagine it is. I am self taught and learned to sharpen with this process, so it works for me. If I were hand stropping I would look to a firmer media. I do need a strop for a friend and the hard strops you produce sound nice.
I'm curious to see if your concoction would be more effective than the TDT brand I'm currently using.
Do you have a site or storefront where I could pick up some of your magic?

 

[SBaker34]

I keep my stones pretty soaked with soapy water, and I sharpen my knives much less than a sharpening service, but probably a fair bit more often than a guy who owns one knife and uses it until it tears cardboard.

As it is right now, I'm expecting the matrix 80 and 250 to need to be lapped fairly often but the 4000 to perhaps never need it, I use barkeepers friend and a nylon brush and or a magic eraser after every use but have yet to lap them because I didn't buy a plate and loose abrasive with the stones, and now I'm debating between silicon carbide and aluminum oxide.


I'm somewhat also considering picking up an 8000 grit hapstone with the lapping stuff, but I'm really not sure it's neccesary, since the 4000 grit stone gets it to start revealing a genuine mirror with a pass or two of the first strop. I'm kinda thinking my money would be better spent on a hard strop or two

 

[SBaker34]

Excellent .
Thank You


Sounds like I am pretty on track with my stropping . . . recently .

Kind of off topic of your superior diamond tools :
About the only time I debur on a strop these days is for stainless and very basic under potential (low hardness) carbon steel .
(the "good" , hard , high alloy blades debur on the stones).
I have taken to putting the aluminum oxide (Gold colored carvers stropping material in cake form) . . . scraping dust off the cake then rubbing it into a denim strop with my finger. Strop mounted on an Edge Pro plate .

So , if you will , talk about strop material for that use . For deburing my Case Trappers etc. .
How do you feel about the lumpy denim vs. a Polymer (?micro fiber?) strop ?

I then take a couple breif passes on finish side leather . . . plain or with 1 micron diamond . On the Edge Pro
It was recently pointed out to me that 3 micron is better but that's what's on that strop for now . No big deal for the basic blades ; 3 micron just better for the good stuff

I got the Denim idea from Dr. Kraichuk's book Knife Deburing . . . he talks about denim . (personally it seems to me he is creating problems just from using powered wheels / strops that we don't have to deal with in hand sharpening . . . but what do I know )


Totally this
I've done to sheeet TON OF thinning behind the edge and reprofiling with this 80 grit stone and it is : As If From The Gods !

I have always said , for diamond , I tend to get my foot up on it when trying to remove some significant metal (obviously exaggerating just a touch) just don't use hard force when one is working on a sharpish edge / apex ; that's what wrecks the finer stones .

I find they do deburr on a finer stone, but I still kinda assume the first couple strop passes will fully deburr anything I've been sharpening, and thus usually strop.

I use a hapstone R2 with them, and I'm fairly limited to the pressure I can use without tipping the rear of it upwards, which really isn't a ton more than just the weight of the stone and carrier, but I really like how with bonded stones I'm mostly limited to the amount of pressure I can use without tipping the sharpener, vs what will rip the diamonds off the plate, even the 80 grit leaves a hell of a lot finer finish than double or triple the electroplated grit, but I suspect bearing down more would leave a bit coaser finish

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Diamonds on a strop love to make foil burrs. They are great at polishing the bevel but not at deburring. Soft aluminum oxide does very little to polish the bevel, but is excellent at deburring, even on Maxamet. I firmly believe that diamonds are vastly overused in stropping. If you want to deburr by stropping, then I think 99% of the time you would be far better using a soft white aluminum oxide.

Do you have a hypothesis for why this is?

 

[Wowbagger]

heavy stropping

more than just the weight of the stone and carrier . . . the amount of pressure I can use without tipping the sharpener,

. . . hehehehe . . . wasn't sure if you were serious there for a moment thanks guys I need that . . . hahahha

 

[SBaker34]

. . . hehehehe . . . wasn't sure if you were serious there for a moment thanks guys I need that . . . hahahha

I'm talking about using a 80 grit stone, not stropping naturally

 

[Diemaker]

The 250 still needs to be dressed. I need to get on that since I bought the grit but I need to find a piece of glass. The 80 was brand new when I started using it.

Sorry, I got the two confused as to which was used dry.

Probably guilty of not using the correct terminology. Dross? It loaded up with dross and started cutting slower. I keep mentally comparing these stones to regular diamond plates. They're totally different but again in my head I keep thinking diamonds should be shredding this steel.

The bond makes a big difference on how a stone works, and single layer plated bonds are the most aggressive while resin bonds are the least due to how much of the crystals is exposed.

Totally not meant as a dig on anything. And the Tormek wheel is the standard wheel it comes with, not the CBN or diamond wheel. It's just such a pain to setup and so easy to mess up with. Easy to go from an edge just right to a blade with a smile...

I didn't take it as a dig, I was just agreeing that powered sharpening is very different than doing it manually on a guided sharpener. Powered is faster and coarser grits will leave a finer finish.

 

[Diemaker]

So , if you will , talk about strop material for that use . For deburing my Case Trappers etc. .
How do you feel about the lumpy denim vs. a Polymer (?micro fiber?) strop ?

I don't like denim because it is too soft and you can't clean it to remove any contaminants, but the same goes for most stropping mediums. I like my polymer strops best because you can clean them so there are virtually no contaminants on them when you apply the emulsion. They will get abrasives embedded in the resin but it won't be very much and as long as you don't use much coarser abrasives it shouldn't be an issue. They are about as stiff a medium as will work to polish before they start causing some scratches on your bevel. They are hard enough that they convex the apex very little, like .001"ish or so at most if doing a lot of stropping with diamonds.

I then take a couple breif passes on finish side leather . . . plain or with 1 micron diamond . On the Edge Pro
It was recently pointed out to me that 3 micron is better but that's what's on that strop for now . No big deal for the basic blades ; 3 micron just better for the good stuff

I got the Denim idea from Dr. Kraichuk's book Knife Deburing . . . he talks about denim . (personally it seems to me he is creating problems just from using powered wheels / strops that we don't have to deal with in hand sharpening . . . but what do I know )


Totally this
I've done to sheeet TON OF thinning behind the edge and reprofiling with this 80 grit stone and it is : As If From The Gods !

I have always said , for diamond , I tend to get my foot up on it when trying to remove some significant metal (obviously exaggerating just a touch) just don't use hard force when one is working on a sharpish edge / apex ; that's what wrecks the finer stones .

How much contact area between the stone and bevel is a huge variable, with thin bevels making very light pressure needed not to overload the crystals or most importantly the crystal to bond strength.