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Edge Pro Matrix resin bond diamond stones

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by Diemaker, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    Sort of an anouncement since they have been available since the begining of May, but still waiting for EP to get them on their website. EP has expanded the polishing stone lineup to include 300, 650, and 1100 mesh resin bond diamond stones. The purpose of this thread is I, the developer and manufacturer of these stones, would like to get some feedback on them as well as some unbiased opinions. To do this I will be making a kit of a full set of stones, plus a few extras, a flat plate, and some loose abrasive to dress them as needed. These will be my personal set so they are not cosmetically first quality but the resin/diamond mix is the same. I will offer this kit as a pass-around. The only cost to try them out is the postage to send it to the next recipient, and to post your honest thoughts about them in this thread. I will make the kit fit in a USPS Medium Flat Rate box so $13.65. Link to the pass-around thread Here.

    Who am I. I first met Ben when he was looking for someone to make the mold for the Apex back in 1994. We made a deal, he paid a down payment, and I bought a used manual milling machine and lathe, and then made the mold at home in my spare time since I had a day job. Soon after making the mold I had a range fire, I live in the country, that burned my shop to the ground. When I rebuilt I got a cnc mill and with those capabilities I started making the scissor sharpener parts around 2000 or so. A few years ago I made some resin bond polishing stones for EP to try out. Not a big deal since I had been making something similar for years to polish stone. At first they didn't like them, but they really liked the machined polishing tape holders I made to test the tapes with, then after a few months EP found themselves using the polishing stones over the tapes for in-house knife sharpening, which became their polishing stones. I am a business that manufactures a few items for EP and I also make my own products that I sell direct with my own website here.

    So, about the stones. The grits in the kit will be 250-110, 300-80, 600-35, 1100-17, 2300-8, 4000-5, and 6500-4 mesh-micron. They are a .062" resin bond diamond matrix with a .188" thick aluminum back, for a total thickness of .25". The backs are flat within .001" total deviation and the resin surface is flat within about .0003" as molded. The exact thickness and flatness of the finished stone can vary by around .004" total. The lower the grit the more it may vary because diamond crystals can get between the aluminum back and the mold when molding them, just the nature of the process. The diamond is very high quality monocrystalin that is processed here in the US. I have been buying from the same supplier for about 15 years now. I mix about as much diamond into the resin as possible, more just increases the wear rate of the stones without making them any more aggressive. I make the stones I want to use, no corners are cut. They are pretty low wear, how low depends on how much pressure is used when sharpening. In 6 months the samples I gave to EP have worn around .002"-.004" and they have sharpened hundreds of knives. The 300 grit stone has worn around .005" and sharpened around 30 knives. Be real careful with the pressure on the 250 or 300 grit stones as they can wear quickly, I wore .004" off my 250 doing a restoration job on 2 of my my neighbors cheap gooey steel chef knives by using too much pressure. I should have just used the Sic stones for that job as the steel was just too soft. The harder the material you are sharpening the better they work, including ceramic. This is especially true for the finer grit stones. The 6500 should only be used on the hardest steels or ceramic, anything less don't go past the 4000, sometimes don't go past the 2300. As I have said on this forum before, don't put too much value in the numbers on the stones, they don't mean very much. There are many factors that determin how a stone works, the bond is as important as the abrasive size. This is a resin bond, a rather unique resin bond. Keep an open mind when testing them.

    I was at EP yesterday afternoon so I measured the thickness of their diamond stones and engraved it on the back of all of them so I can track the wear accuratly. The 2300 they have been using since 5-16 has worn .005", and they use it all the time. Granted there was a second 2300 added at some point, I removed it, but still EP sharpens a lot of knives and most of the wear was from too much dressing. With proper care all but the coarsest stone should last a lifetime of home use, and maybe a lifetime of professional use for the finer grits.

    How to use the stones. These stones are non-pourous but seem to hold the water fairly well. I use a cup of water that I dip my finger in to wet the stone. A little soap would be good but I almost never think of it. Use very low pressure even for a larger bevel, none for smaller bevels, and be very carful with the stone when just starting a bevel to keep the point loading low. Absolutely no pressure for the 2300 and up stones, they don't need it. For the 2300 and up only use the weight of the stone and stone holder! All a little pressure will do is make you need to dress them sooner. I will use both edge leading and trailing passes with up to the 1100 stone. Above that edge trailing only!!!! I find that edge leading passes increase microchipping which then scratch the bevel. The grit progression is designed for 10 passes on a 3-1/2" CRKT 440c blade with about a .1" wide bevel. I did this myself with my microscope so I could see what was really happening. Without the microscope I increase the passes by around 50% to make sure the blade is ready for the next grit. Keep the swarf cleaned up and clean it off your knife and the sharpener before moving to the next grit. You don't want to contaminate the new stone with the swarf from the last one. The swarf should only be steel fillings, as long as you keep the pressure light. With the 2300 and up be methodical and careful, do the 10 ish passes and move on. These stones really just polish out the scratches from the last grit, but they will make your knife noticably sharper than the last grit. Generally you will still have a hazy polish with these stones, unless your steel is extremely hard and fine grained. They rarely give that mirror polish. Next up is some leather and make up my own diamond polishing compound to improve the polish. If it works you might find that in the kit as well. It seems to me that these stones leave noticeably less of a burr than Alox stones, the 2300 and up don't seem to leave a noticeable burr.

    Dressing and other maintenance. The 250 and 300 stones shouldn't need dressing. With light pressure the swarf will wear the resin away exposing the diamond. They will probably only need to be dressed to fix dishing, which should take a long time. The 600 and 1100 I am not sure about. The 2300 and up need to be dressed when they start scratching more than when freshly dressed. Best case every 10-20 knives. The finer the grit the fussier they are. The 6500 is very fussy so that is why it hasn't made it to production. Use rubbing alcohol with a paper towel or cloth to clean the stones between dressings. The coarsest stones don't ever need cleaning, the finest need it the most often. DO NOT use any other chemicals on them, some will attack the resin.

    Here is an interesting test to see if there is a difference whether using Alox or CBN/Diamond to sharpen with. Link

    Here are some photos. Finest grit at the top, coarsest at the bottom. The 2300 and 4000 have some pinholes. I have not noticed the pinholes causing any issues in the last 25 months even though I am looking for them. I can not guarantee the resin bond stones I make are 100% free of porosity, just the way I make them, fact of life.

    [​IMG]

    The 6500 is the only back that is current, the rest are old production or prototypes. I engraved the thickness and date on all of them so we can track wear. I measured them right in the center where I engraved the O.
    [​IMG]


    Here is an up close look at the 250.
    [​IMG]

    Shot of the 300 mesh stone under the microscope. The amount of diamond by weight is pretty consistent between the different grits so the finer grits show even more diamond to resin ratio.
    [​IMG]

    This is how I measure the blanks for deviation from the reference surface.
    [​IMG]

    This is the machine I use to make everything on. The width of all the aluminum backs are within +/-.0001" from each other, doesn't need to be, just how accurate the mill is.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  2. Fixall

    Fixall Gold Member Gold Member

    415
    Mar 26, 2018
    First of all thanks and great work on the new Edge Pro stones! I have been using the 2300 and 4000 stone the last few days and have found them very enjoyable. I would be very interested in comparing the; 250, 300, 600, and 1100 mesh diamond stones to my 120, 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1000 Edge Pro stones. I'm also extremely interested in comparing the 6500 diamond mesh to the 6000 grit polishing tape. So far when comparing the 2000 polishing tape to the 2300 grit diamond mesh, I've found that the 2300 stone takes material off a little slower but leaves a better finish. It's easy to jump up to the next polishing stone too soon if you are used to the polishing tapes (like you said). The biggest performance increase I've seen (other than durability of course) is that the feedback from the diamond mesh stones is much more consistent than with the polishing tapes. For me... After polishing two or three knives with the polishing tapes, the feedback (and the finish) gets a little more consistent... At least until the tape wears and imperfections from mistakes start to set in.

    I do have a couple questions for you though...

    I use a mixture of Simple Green and water to keep my regular Edge Pro stone lubricated while in use. Should I use just be using water (and maybe a drop of dish soap) on the 2300 and 4000 stone instead?
    Other than wear resistance, have you found much benefit to the to the diamond mesh stones over the regular stones? I imagine the diamond mesh stones take material off at a quicker pace, but at my current skill level, that might not be a bonus just yet, lol.
    Other than early wear, is there any reason you don't recommend using the 4000 and up polishing stones on softer steels? The 4000 stone left a very nice finish on both the Swiss Army and kitchen knives I used it on the other day.
    How should we be dressing the stones? Is the Edge Pro Stone Leveling kit up to the task or should we be purchasing something like bodrid stone designated for dressing the diamond mesh stones?

    Thanks again!
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  3. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    Wow, lots of questions! Let me know if I miss one, here goes.

    The tapes don't last very long, at best 2 or 3 smaller knives. They are aluminum oxid and they feel like a very fiable type to me. Great for polishing but it breaks down fast. I think that after a fresh dress the diamond stones cut almost as fast as the polish tapes but won't quite polish as well as the second or third knives sharpend, after which they are pretty consistent. When

    It sounds like Simple Green isn't a problem, but I don't know if it is any better than a little soap. I think the only thing a little soap would do is help keep the stones clean, but you will still need to clean them with some alchohol occasionaly.

    I like regular stones for softer steel, but like the diamond stones for anything hard enough for them to really work well, say roughly 58 rc. I think the diamond leaves less of a burr when doing edge trailing passes, this is something I would like feedback on.

    The softer the steel the lower the grit that works. We all have observed that while going through the grit progression the scratches start to get deeper at some point. The softer the steel the lower the grit it happens with. The difference between the 4000 and 6500 is tiny in the best circumstances, under the microscope. The 6500 needs good 60+ rc steel to work better than the 4000. If that is all you sharpen then you may want the 6500 instead of the 4000, you can go from the 2300 to either the 6500 or 9000, which is the finest I have found works on anything, so far only on ceramic.

    EP is getting in some 240 grit aluminum oxide for dressing these stones. They dress the same way as any other stone, just much faster since the resin isn't that hard. Be real gentle dressing them, this is where all of the wear is for the 2300 and up, not in using them. How true this is on the 650 and 1100 is yet to be seen. Dress them until they look clean again and no longer. Dressing with wet loose abrasive on a flat plate leaves these stones performing best, significantly better than using 200-320 sandpaper wet, or anything else I have tried. The secret to getting the most out of the resin bond stones is dressing, it can completely change the way they work.

    Thank you for your interest!
     
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  4. Fixall

    Fixall Gold Member Gold Member

    415
    Mar 26, 2018
    Thanks for the reply!

    From my use, I've gotten basically the same results from the tapes as you. They can leave a great finish but are a little finicky and the price can start to add up. I did just order some of the 6000 grit polish tapes to see how they perform though...

    Perfect. I'll continue to use the Simple Green. Other than keeping the standard Edge Pro stones a bit cleaner, I've noticed it also slightly changes the feel of the feedback from the stones in a positive way (at least for me). I just wanted to make sure Simple Green wouldn't cause issues with the resin used in the new stones.

    I use leading edge strokes until I finish with the 1000 grit stone and then I use edge trailing strokes when using the polish tapes and your polish stones. I plan on doing some sharpening tomorrow and I can compare my bur results with the tapes and stones. Should I be comparing the 2300 grit stone to the 2000 grit tapes?

    The vast majority of my pocket knives are 57+ hrc so I should get some great use out of the two polish stones I own already... I'll give the 6000 grit tapes a go before I decide if I should pick up a 6500 grit stone too. Sounds like only a few of my knives would benefit. 60 hrc is starting to get up there.

    Thanks for the heads up on the aluminum oxide. I'm glad I didn't decide to try to use the silicon carbide I have. I imagine Edge Pro will be selling the aluminum oxide long before I actually need to dress either my 2300 or 4000.

    I'm still in the learning phase with the Edge Pro, so when this thread takes off and more experienced people start requesting to use the stones... Be sure to send the kit to one of them first to get some proper, expert opinions.

    Here's a pic of a couple of your creations I ordered a while back. One looks to be an older model and one is a newer model. The addition of the word "diamond" engraved on the back is a nice touch to the new model. I also really like the completely polished surface compared to the regular Edge Pro stones.

    [​IMG]


    I'll post a pic of the finish I'm able to get with the 2300 and 4000 stone tomorrow. :)


    *Edit
    Just saw your post in the "Pass-Around Forum". Looks like I don't meet the six month requirement. No worries though! I still super appreciate you taking the time and risk to do this!
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  5. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    It just depends on the steel, and the state of dress of the stone, but 2300 to 2000 would be the closest comparison. Adding Diamond to the engraving happened on the last batch so that is definitly a new one. Thanks for the photos, I need to talk to EP about the sandpaper to dress note, that info changed a few months ago. The 6500 isn't really in production, I only made 10 to sample them. IMO they are the last stone to get out of the set, they will barely improve the polish at best over the 4000. I have never stropped so I don't know when that would be the nest step. Perhaps stropping would be better than the 6500?

    EP should be getting some of the Alox powder in this comming week.

    So far there is only one person wanting to try them out, but he hasn't emailed me his contact info yet. If you want to try them out being a Gold Member I can at least ask if there is a way for you to try them out.
     
    Fixall likes this.
  6. Blues

    Blues Lapsed SuperMod / Cattle Knife Rustler Staff Member Super Mod

    Oct 2, 1998
    Diemaker, I'll go out on a limb since Fixall is a paying member here and make an exception to the rule since you are willing to give him the opportunity to provide feedback.

    If Spark wants to hunt me down and make me stand in the corner, I'll take one for the team.

    Should anyone gripe, just have them reach out to me.
    (I haven't taken too many liberties with the rules in my 20 years here.)
     
  7. Mikke

    Mikke

    81
    Jan 15, 2001
    I'm confused, is the polishing stone that Fixall shows in his post actually a resin bound diamond stone? It looks just like my 4000 polishing stone that I bought almost 2 years ago.

    Interesting thread, looking forward to reading more!
     
  8. loonybin

    loonybin Gold Member Gold Member

    May 18, 1999
    So, would the SiC powder I got from Edge Pro to flatten the EP stones and my Shapton Glass stones be too aggressive for dressing the stones? Also, did my 2nd email finally go through? Gmail was being a persnickety pain in the [ahem].
     
  9. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    Blues, thank you and if anything changes let us know.

    Fixall, your second in line so email me your contact info when you get a chance and I will forward your address to loonybin when he is ready to send the kit to you.

    Mikke, the only thing that has changed with the polishing stones since they were first released is the amount of machining on the aluminum backs, and EP admitting that diamond is the abrasive.

    loonybin, I did get your second email yesterday but wasn't sure it was you, thanks for letting me know. Your first in line so once I get the kit together and ship it out I will let you know. The 60 grit Sic powder is too coarse. EP is getting some 240 grit Alox which is the best we have tried. I use 400 grit Sic, 55 micron, on everything through the 1100 and a 4000 grit soft Alox, or 5 micron, for the 2300 on up, because that is what I have on hand. The reason I use the 4000 grit is it works just fine but will wear the stones less, and I don't use it for much else.

    I just saw the Tsprof video on how they make their parts, so I figured I can share a video I did for a machining forum awhile ago showing how I like to make small parts. The part I am making is the small knife attachment knob. It jumps around a little but the video is all real time, not sped up like Tsprof's. When I get a chance I will make a video showing how I dress the resin bond stones, which propably applies to all resin bond stones.

     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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  10. Fixall

    Fixall Gold Member Gold Member

    415
    Mar 26, 2018
    Whew, sorry for the delay! I was going to post some pictures the other night but I didn't tighten the drill stop collar down enough and ended up with a dual bevel, lol. I've been sick the last few days so I haven't had a chance to do any more sharpening but I had/have today and tomorrow off so I'll post some pics of the difference in finish over the next couple of days.

    Thanks for the vote of confidence @Blues, I won't let ya down. :)

    @Diemaker My fiance and I are moving into a new place on the 28th of this month so once we get settled in, I'll send you my shipping info. Thanks for the chance to give these a go! I picked up a couple more stones, so I'll have the full compliment of Edge Pro stones to compare yours to. :)

    Pictured from top to bottom, left to right: EP 120, EP 220, EP 320, EP 400, EP 600, EP 800, EP 1000, EP 2000 Polish Tape, EP 6000 Polish Tape, Matrix 2300, Matrix 4000.
    [​IMG]

    I also thought the progression of Edge Pro aluminum backs was interesting, lol.

    From top to bottom are the old school backs that were engraved with C, M, F, UF (pictured is the EP 800). Next are the newer EP backs that are engraved with the grit rating. Then we have Diemaker's old polishing stone. Last is the newest rendition from Diemaker with the addition of "Diamond" added. The Diemaker backs with all the surfaces polished are sweeeet.
    [​IMG]

    P.S.
    I picked up a Spyderco HAP40 sprint run with a 65 - 66 hrc... That should be a nice test for your stones. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
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  11. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    Comparison between the Matrix stones and Shapton Glass.

    I am sure loonybin won't mind holding onto the kit until you are ready, no rush. I have no idea how the 250-1100 Matrix stones compare with the other EP stones, other than the 2300 is designed to be the next progression past the 1000. All of my EP aluminum oxide stones are from before 2000, except for the 1000, which is a very nice stone. Your new knife sounds like a good test for the Matrix stones since the harder the steel the better they work. I did a comparison between a set of Shapton Glass stones and the Matrix stones with a Kershaw with a Sandvick 14C28N blade yesterday, sharpening different sides of the blade with the different style stones. The blade is definitely too soft to get the most out of the diamonds but I hope the info may still be useful. All stones were freshly dressed before I tested them. I used 63 micron silicon carbide powder to dress the Shaptons and Matrix up to 1100 and 9 micron aluminum oxide to dress the 2300 and up.

    How I think the different stones compare:

    Matrix 250- SG 320 The Matrix 300 is very close to the Matirx 250.
    600-1000
    1100-4000
    2300-6000
    The steel was too soft for the finer stones to work well, other than maybe the SG 30,000. On closer inspection it looks like it was working well but I didn't work with it long enough.

    Here are the photos showing the results, diamond on the left, Shapton Glass on the right.

    M250 vs SG320
    [​IMG]

    M650 vs SG 1000
    [​IMG]

    M1100 vs SG4000
    [​IMG]

    M2300 vs SG6000
    [​IMG]

    Here the finer the stone the worse the finish. This is not uncommon and depends on how hard the knife blade is, the harder the blade the finer the grit for the final stone. It seemed to work this way for past the Shapton Glass 6000 too.

    Matrix 4000
    [​IMG]

    Matrix 6500
    [​IMG]

    Shapton Glass 8000
    [​IMG]

    Shapton Glass 16,000
    [​IMG]

    Shapton Glass 30,000
    [​IMG]

    Here you can see where the next stone didn't clean up from the previous stone. It was caused by the Shapton Glass 4000 being .02" thicker than the SG 6000, I wasn't compensating because all the stones are pretty new and I thought close to the same thickness. Just goes to show how important compensators are.
    [​IMG]

    I will try some strops and give the 30,000 another chance then update this post with what I find.

    The photos are just to show the finish each stone leaves, as is obvious I didn't do a good job sharpening the apex. After I was done taking photos I went back and did a proper job of sharpening it, stopping at the Matrix 2300.

    UPDATE
    I dressed the SG 16k with my 650 and 2300 Matrix stones and the SG 30k with my Matrix 4k and 9k stones to see if it would make any difference. I have heard here that how the SG stones work depends on what was used to dress them, ie the finer the grit used to dress the finer the SG cuts. I found virtually no difference in how the SGs worked depending on how they were dressed. Dressing the SGs with the Matrix stones worked really well for both. Plenty of water, 20 seconds of figure 8s and both stones were nice and clean. I am thinking that an Alox bench stone may be the best way to dress the Matrix stones, it works well, is very compact, and doesn't create nearly as big a mess. Once I get more experience doing this I will update.

    The first time I used the SGs I did not like them, they didn't cut worth a s**t! They were brand new and had never been dressed. After a few months I got them back to try again but they needed dressing. After I dressed them they were totally different, they actually cut pretty well on my Henkels and 440c ish knives.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
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  12. Fixall

    Fixall Gold Member Gold Member

    415
    Mar 26, 2018
    I spent some time with the Edge Pro today finally. :D

    I also figured out how I ended up with a dual bevel the other day (it wasn't me bumping the drill stop collar). A tiny bit of water seeped under the masking tape I had on the Edge Pro and messed with my angle. It's insane how just a tiny fraction of a degree can screw things up!

    I definitely like the feeling of consistency your stones give over the 2000 grit polishing tapes. During the first use, the 2000 tape almost feels too aggressive. The second and third knife polish well and the tape gives excellent feedback. By the fourth or fifth knife the tape starts cutting noticeably slower and leaves some parts of the blades smoother than others. Using a brand new 2300 polishing stone felt similar to the third or fourth knife I did with the polishing tape. Slower than a fresh 2000 tape, but not by a whole lot. One thing I noticed is that the metal swarf seems much easier to remove from the diamond mesh stones than the polishing tapes.

    After touching up a couple smaller pocket knives, I decided to do a complete reprofile on the Landi MPS I picked up a few days ago as the edge was in some definite need of some tlc. Holy cow did I underestimate that job. The blade had a bit of a recurve to it near the sharpening choil so I had to take off a TON of metal. It took much longer than I expected with the EP 120 and EP 220... In fact it took so long I ended up getting a little impatient and did a rather poor job cleaning up my scratches as I went through the stones (as you'll see in a minute). Oh well, it was still fun and the knife bites into and cuts arm hair so I'm happy. It might be time to purchase a diamond stone for reprofiling jobs though (now that I think of it... The 120 stone probably just needs to be leveled, doh!).

    I took some photos, but they are potato quality compared to the ones you posted, lol. I have a jewelers loupe and macro lens coming in the mail soon though, so I should be able to get some better pics up once I start working with your stones.

    First up is the Edge Pro 2000 grit polishing tape. This is after doing four knives, so it had just started to lose some of it's efficiency. A few strokes in I hit a bur which tore the tape and reminded me why they aren't ideal.
    [​IMG]

    This was with the Matrix 2300. The 1095 of the MPS responded really well to this stone and this is probably as far as I'll take it in the future.
    [​IMG]

    This is with the Matrix 4000. The scratches I neglected to get out with the previous stones start to become really visible here. Right off the bat I started noticing what you were saying about using the diamond stones on softer steel. The 1095 on the MPS has an RC of between 59 - 60. I think that might even be a little too soft for the 4000 (at least for that particular steel). There's a bit less feedback than when you're using the stone on harder steel and if you're not careful you can introduce new scratches to your finish. You can't really see in the picture, but under magnification you can see that the edge can get a bit chippy too if you're not careful. I'll need some more practice perfecting my technique with the Matrix stones (although my results with the harder steel on my pocket knives were pretty fantastic).
    [​IMG]

    This last one is with the Edge Pro 6000 grit polishing tape. My technique with the tapes is a bit better than with the Matrix stones at this point, but that should change in a hurry with some practice.
    [​IMG]


    One thing I noticed with my Matrix 2300 is that it seems to be taking of metal at the center of the stone while the Matrix 4000 has a more spread out pattern. Do you think I should level the 2300 or does it look good to you?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  13. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    Yeah, it is surprising how critical the anlge is when progressing through the grits. My last issue with this has me thinking more and more about a good compensator and flat stones that are an even thickness from end to end. The last time I dressed my resin stones I measured them with a pair of calipers so I could compensate while dressing. Two are now within .002" of being an even thickness, the rest are within .001" or less. It's not too hard to take a few thou off an end if you try while dressing. This may be another advantage with these stones.

    When I was sharpening the knife in the above post I tried a 6k tape, with the same results. After a few edge trailing passes the feedback got all wonky, when I flipped it over I found a few torn spots in the middle. No burr, I think I was just using too much pressure. I have never tried strops, other than my pant leg, but will be soon. I am thinking the finer grits need a little give with the stone surface to work properly, I will post what I learn.

    About the scratches with the Matrix 4000. I don't think you are exposing them but creating them with the 4000 stone, the steel just isn't up to getting polished with the finer stones. I noticed this with the Shapton Glass as well. It really depends on the knife blade as to which grit you should stop at, and possibly continue with a strop.
    I find that edge trailing passes help a lot to reduce or eliminate microchipping, at least as far as I can see with my microscope. They also can create up to a 10x finer apex than edge leading passes, according to the Science of Sharp blog.

    You really can't skip grits in the tape progression. The 6k only works well after the 3k tape, which only works well after the 2k tape. I find the 6k tape does not work well after any of the Matirx stones.

    Since nearly all knifes have some curve to their profile only a very narrow section of the width of the stone makes contact with the knife while sharpening. With this in mind I like to rock the stone a little while sharpening to try to use as much of it as possible. If your 2300 is new it is dead flat, at this point I think dressing it will only reduce how flat it is, how much really depends on how flat your dressing plate is. As molded they are flat within .0003".
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
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  14. David Martin

    David Martin Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 7, 2008
    Diemaker, thank you for this awesome work. I read your work in the B--s Excha--- on the Aluminum Ox struggling to produce a better edge on 3% vanadium steels. Would SiC grit do better @ 300 & 500 grit? Just a short answer is all that's needed. Thanks for your time. DM
     
  15. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    Yes, Sic is much harder than Alox. Sic will even work on my Kyocera ceramic knife for rough work.
     
  16. ahoward2k

    ahoward2k

    126
    Sep 20, 2017
    I am picking up a digital angle gauge, hopefully before your stones get here so I can get super precise withthe angle. I don't have a microscope, so I'll have to bust out the wife's dslr and hope for the best.
     
  17. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    Right now the stones are all within .005" of the same thickness so you shouldn't need to compensate between them. The only stones that should change much are the 250 and 300, the 250 is the thinnest. This is because they do most of the work and produce the most swarf, which tends to wear the resin away. Having the coarsest stones at a slightly shallower angle than the 650 should work better anyway, they are kind of too coarse to apex with. The microscope is more so you can see what is happening since there isn't much feedback from the stones and they don't creat as much of a burr.
     
  18. ahoward2k

    ahoward2k

    126
    Sep 20, 2017
    Up to 1000, I generally start a few tenths of a degree above where I want the bevel and back it down, helps minimize those phantom scratches.
     
  19. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    200
    Apr 28, 2017
    Kind of a new development so I am adding a new post to hopefully make it a little more noticeable. I never really intended the 300 Matrix stone to be a brute reprofiling stone, the resin just isn't tough enough to do this. It will remove metal nicely but you just can't push on it like most other stones. The Matrix stones niche is for high quality refined scratch patterns and minimal metal deformation at the apex, not brute metal removal. I have been talking with EP about this and Cody is going to add this info to the description, once we settle on the wording and he has time. In the mean time I want to get this info out there to help everyone in deciding if and what Matrix stones they may be interested in. The pass-around should be leaving loonybin any day now and going to Fixall next so they can start giving their opinions of these stones.

    I got to try out a partial set of Venev diamond stones a few weekends ago and I really liked the F150, which is an 80 micron abrasive like the Matrix 300. The Venev removed metal quite a bit faster but left a much bigger burr, which tells me it is deforming the apex more. The Venev needed a lot more pressure to work than the Matrix could stand so it was a really interesting test for me. It has prodded me to work on prototyping some roughing stones using phenolic resin, which is what Venev and I believe Poltava use. I have had a kilo sample bag of appropriate phenolic resin for a few years now, I just needed a kick in the ass to try it out.

    When I get a chance I will do a review of the Venev stones like I did of the SG stones.

    While giving updates I might as well add that I have started finishing with 2 or 3 passes with a denim strop loaded with diamond and wax, just stuff I have lying around. It just seems to be the next step after the appropriate diamond stone, and makes a noticeable difference to the keeness of the edge. The diamond I use is the same as the last stone I use. The diamond leaves a much finer scratch in denim than the resin bond. I will be getting some leather to try to see how that compares to the denim. Too many passes with the diamond loaded denim will certainly round the apex dulling the edge. My opinon right now is no need to go below 5 micron on the diamond since it doesn't do much, at least from what I can see under the microscope.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
    Fixall and Blues like this.
  20. DaveDM

    DaveDM

    6
    Dec 21, 2017
    Would you recommend Atoma 140 or the Venev for the re-profiling job ?
     

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