edge pro or tormek

WhitleyStu,
You're welcome and the same for you. I think that the Tormek group would benefit from a more open posting policy. My impression is that everything has to strictly relate to the Tormek and I perceive a heavy bias toward their machine; thus my heavier reliance on bladeforum. I can't help but think that many good ideas and discussions get filtered, but maybe they have had trouble in the past.

I can say after trying and using so many, many bench stones and more, that the Tormek has its place in my armamentarium, but it was up to me to see when, where, why and how to use it. The fact that I use it freehand probably goes against most of the Tormek buyers' initial plans for using the machine. To think one sharpening system is a panacea for all makes no sense(this is my impression of the argument made by some on the Tormek group). I have a colleague who uses the same knives for the same purpose that I do and he claims that he uses the Tormek exclusively, but then I hear that he "cheats" because he uses other stones--OK by me.

Actually I wouldn't mind a belt sander, but I don't REALLY need one.:)
 
annr said:
... Actually I wouldn't mind a belt sander, but I don't REALLY need one.:)
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Some guys use belt sanders for sharpening, but that can turn into a really fast way to mess up a knife. Grinding bevels is one thing, When it comes time to put on the edge, you don't want something so fast and heat-making IMO.

I'm usually putting edges on knives for the first time. The edge start off blunt, about .012 thick or so. The edges have to be even on both sides and look as good as they work-- crisp and deliberate.
There may be better systems, obviously haven't tried them all (and really don't care to). This one's better than good enough for what I'm doing with it.
 
JCaswell,
I think that we both agree, that if it works use it. I haven't sold my machine either.:)

The reason that I mentioned the belt sander is that I reprofile my blades before using them and that can be time consuming on the Tormek or on the elbow grease. The patterns of wear that I get on my knives also mean that I need to really thin the blade periodically and this also can take a while; the older the knife the longer it takes.

Have you or anyone tried the waterstone wheel?
 
annr said:
JCaswell,
I think that we both agree, that if it works use it. I haven't sold my machine either.:)

The reason that I mentioned the belt sander is that I reprofile my blades before using them and that can be time consuming on the Tormek or on the elbow grease. The patterns of wear that I get on my knives also mean that I need to really thin the blade periodically and this also can take a while; the older the knife the longer it takes.

Have you or anyone tried the waterstone wheel?
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OH, if you're working on the main bevels, I would agree that the Tormek would be slow going. Belt grinder with the right abrasive is better for that for sure:thumbup:

Never tried the waterstone. I would be interested in feedback on the different stones available as I will be needing a new one soon.
 
JCaswell said:
Never tried the waterstone. I would be interested in feedback on the different stones available as I will be needing a new one soon.
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The 4000 grit water stone gives a mirror finish compared to the grey stock wheel that comes on a Tormek. There are fewer grind lines with the water stone compared a freshly dressed grey wheel, but stock removal is slow with the water stone. I purchased the 4000 grit stone, but by using a fine diamond hone to smooth the grey wheel I just don't use the water stone like I thought I would. It would be nice to have a second machine to mount the water stone on and break new angles on the grey wheel and finish on the water stone. One other item, stropping is not needed after using the water stone. I guess you could, but the edge is so sharp after grinding on the water stone that after stropping I notice no real gain.
 
With the Tormek, roughly, how long would it take to regrind an edge from say 25 to 15 on a small D2 folder?

-Cliff
 
mordi said:
DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THE SMALL MODEL 1206? mordi
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Don't know where you're from, but I found this post on the Tormek group on yahoo....

Yes I do have a 1206 and I'm from Italy. The main differences are the
smaller stone (200 mm) the smaller motor not suitable for continuous
use (rate 30/30) and the AC of 220 V 50Hz as in use here in Europe.
There is no 1206 model for use with AC 115 V 60Hz. All the gigs are
the same and I'm very happy with this model! Hope this will be of some
help.​
 
Thanks cbwx34 I'm from Israel and we use 220 v . Do you think the 1206 is strong enough for 30-50 knives per day ? mordi
 
Cliff Stamp said:
With the Tormek, roughly, how long would it take to regrind an edge from say 25 to 15 on a small D2 folder?

-Cliff
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I'd say about 5 minutes if you go slow and want it to look crisp and nicely even, which is kind of a big deal since the final edge bevel will be so much wider than the 25.
If you're doing a few of the same and get into a groove, it may be about half that time. It kind of depends upon the operator and how familiar/comfortable he is with the machine.
 
Thanks, that does not sound too slow to me. How hard are you pressing the knife into the stone - do you get significant fatigue?

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Thanks, that does not sound too slow to me. How hard are you pressing the knife into the stone - do you get significant fatigue?

-Cliff
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I don't press very hard at all -- I'm OK with taking a few minutes to have really clean, perfect lines (I'm usually sharpening about 25 degrees from blunt edge about .012, as mentioned before). If I push hard it goes too fast for me in this operation. You can set up so that the wheel comes into the edge as you grind, or is moving away from the edge. Obviously the first way is faster.

I once saw a guy at a woodworking show demonstrating this machine. He was fixing and sharpening folk's pocket knives. He was really comfortable with the machine and was doing them, in front of a small crowd, in about 1 minute for those that needed some work. It was seconds or those that just needed a sharpening.
At this point, it took longer to mount a knife in the jig than it did to grind it.
Nice thing is you can't overheat, which I think is a real advantage--especially if you're comfortable with what you're doing and inclined to lean on it.

I have no hand fatigue, but I kind of hover over the machine. As a result if I do 10 or 20 blades, I'll feel it in my neck and shoulders.

I think it would be a very suitable machine for someone doing testing --especially if you do a lot of sharpening and it's important to have constancy with angles.
What you'll find with the Tormek is that the sharpening is quick and easy and the biggest pain is putting the knife in the jig and adjusting the set up for the proper angle each time you do so. It's not hard to do these things. It's just a pain to do them over and over.
Also, depending upon the blade shape and size, you may have to modify the small knife jig, which I thought was a pretty self-explanitory process (you could use a belt sander or files for this, and just change out some hardware for lower-profile, off-the-shelf stuff), but I do a lot of work making jigs and whole machines, so maybe I'm not the best one to be saying how 'easy' it may be.:)
 
Thanks, I do not see it as a machine to grind blades so i was wondering just from the viewpoint of changing edge angles. Yes, there is a lot of attraction in terms of consistent sharpening angles. I freehand mine so there is a decent amount of slop in that regard. Have you done any significant grinding like restoring a nicked axe or machete?

Interesting comments about cooling, there is some contention about belt sanders and edges. Some argue it is very easy to overheat an edge and lose edge holding ability, but I have done a number of trials vs hand honing on coarse edges and seen no difference. Of course the steel matter as well, it takes a lot to overheat M2 vs 1095.

-Cliff
 
Yeah, the Tormek is not ideal for grinding a main bevel, but is good for setting or changing a secondary bevel. I haven't used it for taking out big nicks. I'd probably use the belt grinder if it's really bad, then go back to the Tormek to sharpen.

Regarding cooling, I personally think it's risky to use belts for sharpening because if your belt is a little dull or you hold it there a little too long or whatever, that edge heats pretty much instantly.
To me it's a much bigger deal when sharpening than it is when grinding the main bevel. Even when it tapers down to .012 or so, the blade is slower to heat than that razor edge, which can turn pretty much on contact with a dullish belt.

It is refreshing to eliminate that from things to worry about with that slowish-moving wheel and the blade just bathed in a constant film of water as you grind.
Overall, I would think a Tormek, or something like it, would be a good fit for ensuring accuracy and constancy of angles and maintaining a level of absolute certainly the hardness hasn't been lost--or inadvertently increased as has been reported when overheating certain SS edges during sharpening.
 
Cliff,
One other thing that controls the speed at which you can change the edge angle is how you dress the wheel. If you leave a rather rough surface on the wheel it will grind faster, but leave more grind lines. A smoother dress will take longer to sharpen/change edge angle, but the edge will look much nicer. Last week I changed the angle of four steak knives from 15°/side to 20°. It took maybe 10 minutes to do all four knives and remove enough stock to have all sharpened to the new angle. If you take the 10" wheel's surface feed of 29.5" x ~ 90 RPM (if my figures are correct) that is moving approx 220 feet of wheel surface over the blade's edge each minute. Compare this to any of the manual sharpening methods, which I am not saying are inferior, but it is much faster.
 
Thanks for the info, yes the wheel even at only 90 RPM is still much faster than hand honing. I think most when they comment about speed are talking about vs a belt sander which is much faster still and can use very coarse belts. I use 80 grit belts for shaping and it will take down the small folder I mentioned in the above almost instantly, meaning just a few passes. Not smearing out the tip takes more time than grinding the rest of the bevel.

Yes, belt sharpening can be problematic with heat. I have not had a problem with most common knives, but my personal ones can be very thin, 0.005"/10 degrees and on steels like 1095 these will overheat rapidly. Then again with edges these thin it is not time consuming to hand sharpen anyway.

-Cliff
 
I have had a Tormek now for about 3 months.

I bought a 4000 Grit wet stone grinding wheel for it and I am very pleased with the combination.

I also bought a few hundred dollars worth of jigs.

If I had to do it over again I would not spend money on the jigs. I have only attempted to use the knife jigs (small/large) and I think that they are a bit awkward to use. Granted none of my knives needed a lot of metal to be removed to create a new edge. But with gentle pressure using the 4000 grit and even less pressure when using the leather wheel, I can do a pretty good job of free handing.

I started sharpening knives that I didn't care about in order to get a feel for the machine and surprisingly they came out really good.

One hand holds the handle keeping the knife flat and moving the knife in a steady left/right movement while one, two or three fingers on the other hand evenly applies a light pressure on the length of the blade.

The only trick was knowing the right spot on the wheel to grind with. Seeing a photo on the net where someone drew a 10 and 15 degree angle from vertical on the side of a wheel, I knew that a blade held flat (level with the floor) had to be ground just a little bit off center with the top of the wheel. Once I found that right spot and referencing where the edge is with a point on the Tormek, the rest was pretty easy.

My goal for each knife is to create close to a polished edge with the 4000 grit wheel and then very very lightly finishing each knife off with the leather wheel.

I don't stop until a push cut edge is achieved with the better knives. It is not hard to do and actually fun.

If you have a few older knives to play with, I would use the money spent on a jig or two to buy the 4000 grit wet stone instead.

There are a couple of annoying design flaws with the Tormek that I am surprised haven't been changed by now.

The first is the water vat could have been made a little bit longer to prevent water from getting on the table top - not a real biggie but a simple thing for them to change.

The second is when using the leather wheel, the grinding stone gets in the way. The knife has to be held at an angle to the wheel to use it on all but the smallest blades. Again not a biggie but still annoying. I messaged Tormek to ask if they sold a extension arbor to mount the leather wheel further away from the machine and their response was "No".

This is probably the reason why a few folks here with this machine can't get good results with the leather wheel.

Also I would like to thank WhitleyStu and others here on the great advice given to me on leading to my purchase of a Tormek.

All and all, I really like this sharpener and if I can get the results that I am getting with it then anyone can.
 
Great post 1Bigdog!
1Bigdog said:
I bought a 4000 Grit wet stone grinding wheel for it and I am very pleased with the combination.
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Do you rotate the wheels or just use the 4000#? If you do change the wheels is it difficult?

1Bigdog said:
But with gentle pressure using the 4000 grit and even less pressure when using the leather wheel, I can do a pretty good job of free handing.
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I also freehand but I have never gotten control of the leather wheel. I don't know what I am doing wrong to get such inconsistent results. Any pointers or things that you discovered that make a big difference? I agree that I run into the machine or other wheel, even with my small blades.

1Bigdog said:
I knew that a blade held flat (level with the floor) had to be ground just a little bit off center with the top of the wheel. .
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Could you please explain this. It sounds quite helpful and I don't think I get it.
 
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