Edge refurbishing method on YouTube. Your thoughts?

Thanks Peg.

Couple of things I do Different, FYI
1, Make the bracket adjustable,If you make it like the pub,on larger axes the edge is sometimes off the plate.
2,Tape your corners,so when you do the other side you are in the same spot.
3,I use the rare earth magnets(thanks AT sawyer for the idea)so I usually just center punch the spot.

And If you don't Know,When the USFS(MTDC)decides to do a manual,They Get Info from experts in the field,(Professors,Loggers,People involved
in Timber sports for years),And then reviewed by the same.

And can you get as good, or better edge with a file,or other ways,Yes.
Happy chopping in 2014:thumbup:
Moose.









 
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That's it. I'm buying one of those hand belt sanders and giving this a go.

Might have to buy an Arvika to play with! Moose, you are officially a bad influence. ;)
 
IMO The most important thing is to start with an axe that is manufactured for the intended usage (unless you want to spend a lot time re-profiling it just for practice or unless you are modifying it for a unique usage). When you have the properly manufactured profile for the intended use you should only need to file and then hone your primary bevel uniformly or consistently along the edge. After the primary bevel is established you can work the secondary bevel and then blend the transitions smoothly into the cheek profile. If the edge is all beat up or you want to change the radius you obviously need to start with the secondary bevel to establish the edge and then preserve it while you work the primary bevel. Tuatahi knows a little about axes ... just a little ... and here is a picture of how they sharpen a properly manufactured/profiled "work" axe by using a uniform secondary bevel ... http://www.tuatahiaxes.com/workaxes.html

But to each his own
 
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"And If you don't Know,When the USFS(MTDC)decides to do a manual, They Get Info from experts in the field,(Professors,Loggers,People involved
in Timber sports for years),And then reviewed by the same."


I agree--the value of the manual is based largely on how well they obtained and communicated the information that was obtained from the private sector industry experts ... but don't be surprised if the authors may still have included some of their own opinions which may not be shared by the industry experts ... and again not bashing the USFS manual or putting it on the level of OBAMACARE that was allegedly developed by "industry experts" ... just saying one needs to be a discerning reader and needs to independently verify the information being presented, to employ some rational thinking, and not to take it as the final authority on any discussion point ... or the ultimate proof that the video is wrong in its approach ...
 
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IMO The most important thing is to start with an axe that is manufactured for the intended usage (unless you want to spend a lot time re-profiling it just for practice or unless you are modifying it for a unique usage). When you have the properly manufactured profile for the intended use you should only need to file and then hone your primary bevel uniformly or consistently along the edge. After the primary bevel is established you can work the secondary bevel and then blend the transitions smoothly into the cheek profile. If the edge is all beat up or you want to change the radius you obviously need to start with the secondary bevel to establish the edge and then preserve it while you work the primary bevel. Tuatahi knows a little about axes ... just a little ... and here is a picture of how they sharpen a properly manufactured/profiled "work" axe by using a uniform secondary bevel ... http://www.tuatahiaxes.com/workaxes.html

But to each his own

If I only bought axes that were manufactured to perfectly fit my usage and that were still in that condition - I would be so massively limited in my selection. That seems a little too optimistic to me. Maybe that's only because I'm..."thrifty."

No matter what your method or philosophy on profile is, experience is the key. My comfort level in setting up an axe grind and doing it is night and day to what it was a few years ago. I'd like to some day be as methodical as Moose on some of my axes. Anyway, there's no replacement for experience.
 
No matter what your method or philosophy on profile is, experience is the key. My comfort level in setting up an axe grind and doing it is night and day to what it was a few years ago. I'd like to some day be as methodical as Moose on some of my axes. Anyway, there's no replacement for experience.

Ironically, I wasn't even thinking about the OP when I wrote this, but experience is exactly what the maker of the video lacks (along with the salt to own it).

Do I automatically lose points for quoting myself?
 
I am not promoting the video or the author ... I did not post it ... I was only taking exception to his methodology being discounted just because the USFS promotes different sharpening methodology. Many times government authors also lack the real world experience of working efficiently and come up with tedious or inconsequential methodology to accomplish tasks that the private sector performs regularly with efficiency. If you have a properly profiled felling axe with a proper high center why would you want to make it into a flat-sided carpenter's axe? Just so it penetrates deeper and sticks better? What is the purpose of having a high center if you file most of it away for the depth into which the axe is largely used? Why not just buy a flat axe and give it a uniform bevel ... or get a Gransfors and it will all be there for you.

I do agree that experience carries weight ... but it still does not replace common sense or intelligence ... some people do things wrong most of their lives and their experience does not make their wrongs right.

My main contention in this thread is that the methodology of a uniform primary bevel was discounted on the basis of the USFS manual. I disagree on the basis of experience, reason, and private sector experts who sharpen with a uniform bevel.

Personally I try to buy axes profiled for the purposes that I intend to use them for and then fine-tune them for that usage. With that criteria, a uniform primary bevel for me is the preferred sharpening methodology. I prefer not to spend the time or the money into re-profiling an axe for a use for which it was never intended by the original manufacturer--unless that is the only way to have a tool for that particular unique usage.
 
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I am not promoting the video or the author ... I did not post it ... I was only taking exception to his methodology being discounted just because the USFS promotes different sharpening methodology. Many times government authors also lack the real world experience of working efficiently and come up with tedious or inconsequential methodology to accomplish tasks that the private sector performs regularly with efficiency. If you have a properly profiled felling axe with a proper high center why would you want to make it into a flat-sided carpenter's axe? Just so it penetrates deeper and sticks better? What is the purpose of having a high center if you file most of it away for the depth into which the axe is largely used? Why not just buy a flat axe and give it a uniform bevel ... or get a Gransfors and it will all be there for you.

So in your experience, if you file a crescent shape bevel into an axe with a significant high centerline, it removes the advantages of the high centerline? That has not been my experience at all. Its not like you remove the high centerline. It is still there and still makes better chip removal and less sticking. But you also get penetration. On axes with significant high centerlines, I have experienced very poor penetration with bevels of a consistent width (not angle!). In order to attain a consistent width of bevel on an axe with a significant high centerline, you are forced to use a more obtuse angle in the middle of the bit compared to the toe and heel. There's no denying that. That does not make sense because you make the heel and toe, which are more prone to damage, even more vulnerable and you get poor penetration.

I do agree that experience carries weight ... but it still does not replace common sense or intelligence ... some people do things wrong most of their lives and their experience does not make their wrongs right.

I see your point, and agree that people do that. I can't say much about it because I have trouble identifying with those who are not always looking for better ways, more knowledge, etc. I'm always looking to make things easier, better, faster, etc. Maybe I'm just lazy! I'm not saying I'm right and "they" are wrong. I just can't relate.

My main contention in this thread is that the methodology of a uniform primary bevel was discounted on the basis of the USFS manual. I disagree on the basis of experience, reason, and private sector experts who sharpen with a uniform bevel.

I would discount the methodology of a uniform (in width) primary bevel on a chopping axe with a significant high centerline due to my experience in filing axes. I'm not even arguing for the USFS manual. I stopped looking at it awhile back because it is very basic, and I feel that I've moved beyond that in the specific area of bit shaping. Might sound cocky, but what the hell, its really not.

I think we are comparing very different things. The Tuatahi work axe overall geometry is not that similar to a vintage axe with a high centerline. To be fair, I have not inspected a Tuatahi work axe. However, if they are similar to other racing work axes (and I suspect they are), the high centerline does not go into the bit. The racing work axes that I have used and looked at, the bit is uniform in thickness for the first maybe 1/2-3/4 inch all the way around the bit. The tapering of centerline starts after that and is only visible on the cheeks of the axe. In that scenario, a uniform primary bevel makes perfect sense. Many vintage axes have a high centerline that starts around the eye and goes all the way to the edge. There is no way to file a consistent width bevel on such an axe without drastically changing you angle as you go around. If you maintain a similar angle as you go around, by default you will have a crescent shaped bevel when you are looking at the cheek of the axe. Again, I think we (thunderstick and I) are talking about different things.
 
I just looked at some of my favorite choppers, and I realized that talking in generalities like this does not work very well. Bit geometry is too complicated. The way I file an axe has so much to do with the existing geometry of the axe. Some of my favorites have fairly uniform primary bevels (albeit they are convex and blended), some don't. It just depends on what I have to work with.

One of my biggest beefs with this "tutorial" video is that you cannot just slap a V grind on every axe and expect it to perform well. He calls it a "fool proof method." There is no such thing. It takes some thought, experience, and creativity to make axes really shine. Now, telling people that you can't really overheat an axe with a belt grinder, and that it will be okay as long as you don't turn it blue with heat...that put me over the top.
 
...
My main contention in this thread is that the methodology of a uniform primary bevel was discounted on the basis of the USFS manual. I disagree on the basis of experience, reason, and private sector experts who sharpen with a uniform bevel.
...

Sure, the USFS recommendations aren't gospel, and it's useful to hear the specifics about why people disagree with the USFS manual. For example, "An Ax to Grind" recommends blunting the end of a fawn's foot handle, but Square Peg disagrees and he let the forum know exactly why (and it made sense to me). Similarly, I'd like to hear details about why and when the "private sector experts" use a uniform bevel (instead of a convex edge).

It seems like the guy who made the video in this thread, however, is basing his method on what's in a USFS publication (with the 1/8" offset and the compass arcs, etc.), but he's missing the underlying point of keeping the original curvature of the bit. Thus the criticism of his method arbitrarily determining the new curvature, and calling it ideal (the criticism wasn't simply that he didn't do what the USFS said to do).

I appreciate the knowledge-increasing aspects of this forum, and hearing the specifics of how people's experience compares to, and perhaps contradicts, what might otherwise be simply parroted from manuals.

A forum of parrots and party-liners would be boring to me.
 
I just looked at some of my favorite choppers, and I realized that talking in generalities like this does not work very well. Bit geometry is too complicated. The way I file an axe has so much to do with the existing geometry of the axe. Some of my favorites have fairly uniform primary bevels (albeit they are convex and blended), some don't. It just depends on what I have to work with.

One of my biggest beefs with this "tutorial" video is that you cannot just slap a V grind on every axe and expect it to perform well. He calls it a "fool proof method." There is no such thing. It takes some thought, experience, and creativity to make axes really shine. Now, telling people that you can't really overheat an axe with a belt grinder, and that it will be okay as long as you don't turn it blue with heat...that put me over the top.

I agree with everything you are saying here--as I don't buy the video tutorial completely either because he does not blend the profiles. I also agree that if an axe has a high centerline out to the edge and you want to make it a "chopping axe" you need to move the high center line back. However I will tend to use those axes for splitting axes or general purpose axes. I have an excellent axe handed down to me from my grandpa that has a short bit and high centerline. The steel is very hard and I have no interest and laying back the centerline enough to make it a great chopper--especially when a good chopper should start with a longer bit and lower centerline. So I put a 30" handle on it and made it a light splitting/kindling and multi-purpose axe. It works great for that. Axes that I select for chopping axes already have low centerlines and a uniform "primary bevel" of about 1/2" works well. After honing the primary bevel and blending it into the profiles I then convex the secondary bevel and put my final polished edge on it. I think our philosophies are actually very similar.
 
Sure, the USFS recommendations aren't gospel, and it's useful to hear the specifics about why people disagree with the USFS manual. For example, "An Ax to Grind" recommends blunting the end of a fawn's foot handle, but Square Peg disagrees and he let the forum know exactly why (and it made sense to me). Similarly, I'd like to hear details about why and when the "private sector experts" use a uniform bevel (instead of a convex edge). See my post above. I prefer to profile an axe that is best suited for its intended purpose from the original manufacture. When you do this you select a longer bit with a lower centerline for chopping and a shorter bit with a higher centerline for splitting or general purpose usage. Within this criteria a uniform "primary bevel" works well with the original centerline. The experts first of all are the original manufacturers who had a specific usage in mind for their axes which is why they made numerous profiles based on numerous tests--so why not work within the parameters of those from an era who knew their axes instead of trying to alter them? I also see the best manufacturers today still making axes for specific purposes. Educated users buy axes that were designed for specific purposes then fine-tune them for that usage. It seems really inane to me to buy an axe with a high centerline and then remove that centerline so it can be good chopper. Why not just get the right axe for that purpose that has the correct center line already and then fine-tune it. Its almost like buying a felling axe with low centerline for splitting and then welding steel to it to raise the centerline so it don't stick. That's why saying all axes should be sharpened up the centerline sounds wrong to me. If my good felling axes were sharpened that way they would be virtually flat and lose the benefit of the centerline.

It seems like the guy who made the video in this thread, however, is basing his method on what's in a USFS publication (with the 1/8" offset and the compass arcs, etc.), but he's missing the underlying point of keeping the original curvature of the bit. Thus the criticism of his method arbitrarily determining the new curvature, and calling it ideal (the criticism wasn't simply that he didn't do what the USFS said to do). Agreed--you need to first determine what you want the bit radius points to be at the heel and toe before you can establish the radius point at the poll. His reasoning was circular--but his methodology will work if you first establish where you want the heel and toe.

I appreciate the knowledge-increasing aspects of this forum, and hearing the specifics of how people's experience compares to, and perhaps contradicts, what might otherwise be simply parroted from manuals. my point exactly.

A forum of parrots and party-liners would be boring to me. I agree! I may be wrong...but that is what I thought I saw happening--discount one methodology on the basis of another methodology without critiquing both the pros and cons of the whole process.
 
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...
I appreciate the knowledge-increasing aspects of this forum, and hearing the specifics of how people's experience compares to, and perhaps contradicts, what might otherwise be simply parroted from manuals. my point exactly.

A forum of parrots and party-liners would be boring to me. I agree! I may be wrong...but that is what I thought I saw happening--discount one methodology on the basis of another methodology without critiquing both the pros and cons of the whole process.

Yeah, I figured we were on the same page about weighing methodologies against experience. Thanks for giving more details of your experience with bevels and profiles.
 
See my post above. I prefer to profile an axe that is best suited for its intended purpose from the original manufacture. When you do this you select a longer bit with a lower centerline for chopping and a shorter bit with a higher centerline for splitting or general purpose usage. Within this criteria a uniform "primary bevel" works well with the original centerline. The experts first of all are the original manufacturers who had a specific usage in mind for their axes which is why they made numerous profiles based on numerous tests--so why not work within the parameters of those from an era who knew their axes instead of trying to alter them? I also see the best manufacturers today still making axes for specific purposes. Educated users buy axes that were designed for specific purposes then fine-tune them for that usage. It seems really inane to me to buy an axe with a high centerline and then remove that centerline so it can be good chopper. Why not just get the right axe for that purpose that has the correct center line already and then fine-tune it. Its almost like buying a felling axe with low centerline for splitting and then welding steel to it to raise the centerline so it don't stick. That's why saying all axes should be sharpened up the centerline sounds wrong to me. If my good felling axes were sharpened that way they would be virtually flat and lose the benefit of the centerline.

I've been following the surge of interest and material on axes on the internet since about 2008. Even though it is not my main focus (material and official nomenclature from the industry), I can't recall ever seeing evidence in any form that manufacturers sold axes with different centerline shapes and hollows and marketed them as splitting, felling, or "general purpose" axes. The closest thing to that would have been, for example, comparing Kelly perfects, flint edge, and wood slasher axes. Mostly it was finish, but the wood slasher cedar I have is definitely not as concerted in it's geometric features. It's a big hunk of steel, with lots of extra material left on in places where this laymen thinks it ought to be removed.

I don't think it's a very reasonable approach to acquire only axes that are still in the same shape from the manufacturers-- assuming that, as you say, they came from the factory with their ideal proportions already (they didn't). A felling axe that was sharpened by a chump several times might well make a good splitting axe. And an axe that never had it's face filed down from the factory makes a great splitting axe. especially since a stock axe being put to used is probably a catalyst for a chump who never touched the edge, and it would require even more bluntening by means of a file to work a burr and subsequent edge onto it (which a splitting axe should have).

On the topic of capitalism and the axe industry, which I think is actually an interesting one, I also look at things differently. The manufacturers weren't the experts. When capitalism works well, the manufacturers interpret information through the market (This is the technical merit of capitalism, and the opposite point is probably the most compelling argument against socialism I've yet to hear, from Hayek). There were a million and one attempts from manufacturers to market superfluous, inexpensive, and inefficient designs. These only ever started to catch on when people stopped using axes. Roughly coinciding with the general abjection of the quality of people, thereby destroying what shred of merit capitalism had. Just how I see it. It's the responsibility of the consumer, in this example the old men who actually used their axes, to send a message to the manufacturer what they want in an axe. In a time where people did things themselves, idiosyncratically, and with different preferences abound, that message was not to produce homogenized "ideal" axes, but to sell something that could be shifted either way with a little bit of work, and be re purposed as it was worn (for example, blunted by means of hard use and sharpening, yielding a splitting axe after a long tenure as a cutting axe). I could be completely off base here, but like I said before, I have never come across or heard of any manufacturer doing what you elude to-- if they did, I should think that they would have made it known that their axes had "shallow centerlines" or some other equivalent term with the same or similar conveyance that meant their axes cut better. Most of the material that would roughly meet that criteria would fall into the realm of capitalistic drivel that was promptly rejected by the consumer (a beautiful part of capitalism).

Of course each and every axe needs to be assessed individually-- but the profiling of an efficient axe draws from so many different factors. I think the FS advice in "an axe to grind" is actually pretty moderate. The problem you bring attention to is real, but I don't think it is necessarily a problem that will arise from filing back as illustrated by Bernie. He doesn't file back all that far; like I said, it's fairly moderate. Peter Vido sharpens his axes to the old standard amongst the New Brunswick axmen. Read this excerpt here--


"During the early stages of my ax sharpening search, the local old timers were rather vague with advice. They plainly did not think of head/edge shaping in terms of specific angles; if I showed them one of my axes, they felt the bit between their thumb and first finger and (usually) declared it too thick here or there… Only one of them, Arnold Hanscomb, was explicit: he laid a file between the edge and the centre of the ax's eye and said but one word: "FLAT! " He fixed my gaze and repeated "Flat… then you will have an ax that cuts." ALL our axes back then failed that parameter, most of them miserably. Though I later tried to meet his specs, I too failed, mostly because it took a lot of time along with many good files to properly convert the worn and abused old axes we had collected, which had the cheeks too thick to allow for the file (or other straight edge) to lay 'flat' -- that is to contact at once the eye and (almost) the edge.

If you go and check your axes, I would wager that they too would likely "fail" this test. An axe filed that extensively has its centerline negated through filing very, very far up the face of the axe. An axe filed that way does penetrate and cut extremely well, and the release is not terribly difficult, because if it's done right, the context between the different geometric factors is still (usually) synergistic. The further you go up the face of the axe, generally speaking, the thicker it becomes. So whether an axe bites an inch deep, or 4 inches deep, if you know your stuff, a bulge further up the face of the axe that is filed in that manner (using the straight edge) is going to eventually become a factor as the axe penetrates deeper. That is going to open the cut, create a point contact, separate the fibers, and penetrate very deeply to boot-- assuming it's done right. Every axe is different, and plenty I'm sure do not respond well to this kind of filing. It's dependent also on the wood you're cutting, and whether it's green or dry, or frozen.

I'm not telling you that you are wrong, just sharing my experience and thoughts. I'd like to see pictures of the way you file your axes if you have time.
 
Great thread, gentlemen. I'm really enjoying it and learning from your different perspectives.
bow.gif


I'll just add that thinning the bit by filing well back from the edge doesn't have to result in the loss of the high centerline. My best cutting banana grinds still maintain a shorter higher centerline within the banana grind. It's not an either/or thing. You can have both.

Also, some of you have mentioned blending in the primary and secondary bevels. I agree with this. I believe that axes sharpened with a filing jig or grinding jig should then be tuned with a little hand filing. A gradual curve without any transitional ridge is best, IMO. Lastly, hand filing allows you to leave the heel and toe a little thicker or more obtuse which makes for a more durable bit. You wouldn't care about this on a racing axe which might be resharpened after 60 seconds of use. But for a home axe or trail axe, durability of the edge matters.
 
Thanks for those details of your experience, Pegs, especially for making this clear:

...
I'll just add that thinning the bit by filing well back from the edge doesn't have to result in the loss of the high centerline. My best cutting banana grinds still maintain a shorter higher centerline within the banana grind. It's not an either/or thing. You can have both.
 
I've been following the surge of interest and material on axes on the internet since about 2008. Even though it is not my main focus (material and official nomenclature from the industry), I can't recall ever seeing evidence in any form that manufacturers sold axes with different centerline shapes and hollows and marketed them as splitting, felling, or "general purpose" axes. The closest thing to that would have been, for example, comparing Kelly perfects, flint edge, and wood slasher axes. Mostly it was finish, but the wood slasher cedar I have is definitely not as concerted in it's geometric features. It's a big hunk of steel, with lots of extra material left on in places where this laymen thinks it ought to be removed.

I don't think it's a very reasonable approach to acquire only axes that are still in the same shape from the manufacturers-- assuming that, as you say, they came from the factory with their ideal proportions already (they didn't). A felling axe that was sharpened by a chump several times might well make a good splitting axe. And an axe that never had it's face filed down from the factory makes a great splitting axe. especially since a stock axe being put to used is probably a catalyst for a chump who never touched the edge, and it would require even more bluntening by means of a file to work a burr and subsequent edge onto it (which a splitting axe should have).

On the topic of capitalism and the axe industry, which I think is actually an interesting one, I also look at things differently. The manufacturers weren't the experts. When capitalism works well, the manufacturers interpret information through the market (This is the technical merit of capitalism, and the opposite point is probably the most compelling argument against socialism I've yet to hear, from Hayek). There were a million and one attempts from manufacturers to market superfluous, inexpensive, and inefficient designs. These only ever started to catch on when people stopped using axes. Roughly coinciding with the general abjection of the quality of people, thereby destroying what shred of merit capitalism had. Just how I see it. It's the responsibility of the consumer, in this example the old men who actually used their axes, to send a message to the manufacturer what they want in an axe. In a time where people did things themselves, idiosyncratically, and with different preferences abound, that message was not to produce homogenized "ideal" axes, but to sell something that could be shifted either way with a little bit of work, and be re purposed as it was worn (for example, blunted by means of hard use and sharpening, yielding a splitting axe after a long tenure as a cutting axe). I could be completely off base here, but like I said before, I have never come across or heard of any manufacturer doing what you elude to-- if they did, I should think that they would have made it known that their axes had "shallow centerlines" or some other equivalent term with the same or similar conveyance that meant their axes cut better. Most of the material that would roughly meet that criteria would fall into the realm of capitalistic drivel that was promptly rejected by the consumer (a beautiful part of capitalism).

Of course each and every axe needs to be assessed individually-- but the profiling of an efficient axe draws from so many different factors. I think the FS advice in "an axe to grind" is actually pretty moderate. The problem you bring attention to is real, but I don't think it is necessarily a problem that will arise from filing back as illustrated by Bernie. He doesn't file back all that far; like I said, it's fairly moderate. Peter Vido sharpens his axes to the old standard amongst the New Brunswick axmen. Read this excerpt here--


"During the early stages of my ax sharpening search, the local old timers were rather vague with advice. They plainly did not think of head/edge shaping in terms of specific angles; if I showed them one of my axes, they felt the bit between their thumb and first finger and (usually) declared it too thick here or there… Only one of them, Arnold Hanscomb, was explicit: he laid a file between the edge and the centre of the ax's eye and said but one word: "FLAT! " He fixed my gaze and repeated "Flat… then you will have an ax that cuts." ALL our axes back then failed that parameter, most of them miserably. Though I later tried to meet his specs, I too failed, mostly because it took a lot of time along with many good files to properly convert the worn and abused old axes we had collected, which had the cheeks too thick to allow for the file (or other straight edge) to lay 'flat' -- that is to contact at once the eye and (almost) the edge.

If you go and check your axes, I would wager that they too would likely "fail" this test. An axe filed that extensively has its centerline negated through filing very, very far up the face of the axe. An axe filed that way does penetrate and cut extremely well, and the release is not terribly difficult, because if it's done right, the context between the different geometric factors is still (usually) synergistic. The further you go up the face of the axe, generally speaking, the thicker it becomes. So whether an axe bites an inch deep, or 4 inches deep, if you know your stuff, a bulge further up the face of the axe that is filed in that manner (using the straight edge) is going to eventually become a factor as the axe penetrates deeper. That is going to open the cut, create a point contact, separate the fibers, and penetrate very deeply to boot-- assuming it's done right. Every axe is different, and plenty I'm sure do not respond well to this kind of filing. It's dependent also on the wood you're cutting, and whether it's green or dry, or frozen.

I'm not telling you that you are wrong, just sharing my experience and thoughts. I'd like to see pictures of the way you file your axes if you have time.

I would agree except for one thing--many of the craftsmen back then were ALSO users of the tool themselves. Thusly you had the user as the maker as well! They may not have been experts or anything (as mentioned in this thread experience doesn't mean that you're correct--you can do something wrong for 40 years with no development of skill or understanding if you don't study the tool through use) but it does make for a different sort of intimacy between craftsman and tool that many industries today lack.
 
I would agree except for one thing--many of the craftsmen back then were ALSO users of the tool themselves. Thusly you had the user as the maker as well! They may not have been experts or anything (as mentioned in this thread experience doesn't mean that you're correct--you can do something wrong for 40 years with no development of skill or understanding if you don't study the tool through use) but it does make for a different sort of intimacy between craftsman and tool that many industries today lack.


For a time, yes. That died out in part with companies like Emerson Stevens/the rest of the oakland companies, and their ilk. Emerson Stevens being a sort of exceptional example since they survived so late, but their survival depended on and did fill a niche at the time, for people who still wanted to support that. way back when oakland was the axe hub it was, and further (early 1900's and into the 1800's) that was probably the most prevalent dynamic. As the companies grew though, I think that probably ceased to be the case; either altogether or at least drastically.
 
Yup! 1800's through the 1940's I'd say. Once the 50's hit manufacturers were dropping like flies.
 
I agree to a point. Although, the private sector has no authority from which to force its will upon society. The people have the right to choose the companies to whom they lend their support. We all have a responsibility to support those who do good, or at least "do no harm." We are woefully bad at that as society cares much more about price than anything else due to shortsightedness and consumer greed. So I place much blame back at the feet of the collective consumer.

Now what happens when those huge "profit above all else" corporations largely run the government through lobbying, special interests, kickback earmarks, etc and also have a firm foothold in the hearts and minds of the mentally-lazy, collective community by appealing to their vanity and greed? Well, that would be the shitstorm we are in right now.

That's way off topic, but I, for one, don't mind.

Dang M3mphis!

You can't say them kind of things in this state.


But I don't mind.
 
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