Edge refurbishing method on YouTube. Your thoughts?

I've been following the surge of interest and material on axes on the internet since about 2008. Even though it is not my main focus (material and official nomenclature from the industry), I can't recall ever seeing evidence in any form that manufacturers sold axes with different centerline shapes and hollows and marketed them as splitting, felling, or "general purpose" axes. The closest thing to that would have been, for example, comparing Kelly perfects, flint edge, and wood slasher axes. Mostly it was finish, but the wood slasher cedar I have is definitely not as concerted in it's geometric features. It's a big hunk of steel, with lots of extra material left on in places where this laymen thinks it ought to be removed.

I don't think it's a very reasonable approach to acquire only axes that are still in the same shape from the manufacturers-- assuming that, as you say, they came from the factory with their ideal proportions already (they didn't). A felling axe that was sharpened by a chump several times might well make a good splitting axe. And an axe that never had it's face filed down from the factory makes a great splitting axe. especially since a stock axe being put to used is probably a catalyst for a chump who never touched the edge, and it would require even more bluntening by means of a file to work a burr and subsequent edge onto it (which a splitting axe should have).

On the topic of capitalism and the axe industry, which I think is actually an interesting one, I also look at things differently. The manufacturers weren't the experts. When capitalism works well, the manufacturers interpret information through the market (This is the technical merit of capitalism, and the opposite point is probably the most compelling argument against socialism I've yet to hear, from Hayek). There were a million and one attempts from manufacturers to market superfluous, inexpensive, and inefficient designs. These only ever started to catch on when people stopped using axes. Roughly coinciding with the general abjection of the quality of people, thereby destroying what shred of merit capitalism had. Just how I see it. It's the responsibility of the consumer, in this example the old men who actually used their axes, to send a message to the manufacturer what they want in an axe. In a time where people did things themselves, idiosyncratically, and with different preferences abound, that message was not to produce homogenized "ideal" axes, but to sell something that could be shifted either way with a little bit of work, and be re purposed as it was worn (for example, blunted by means of hard use and sharpening, yielding a splitting axe after a long tenure as a cutting axe). I could be completely off base here, but like I said before, I have never come across or heard of any manufacturer doing what you elude to-- if they did, I should think that they would have made it known that their axes had "shallow centerlines" or some other equivalent term with the same or similar conveyance that meant their axes cut better. Most of the material that would roughly meet that criteria would fall into the realm of capitalistic drivel that was promptly rejected by the consumer (a beautiful part of capitalism).

Of course each and every axe needs to be assessed individually-- but the profiling of an efficient axe draws from so many different factors. I think the FS advice in "an axe to grind" is actually pretty moderate. The problem you bring attention to is real, but I don't think it is necessarily a problem that will arise from filing back as illustrated by Bernie. He doesn't file back all that far; like I said, it's fairly moderate. Peter Vido sharpens his axes to the old standard amongst the New Brunswick axmen. Read this excerpt here--


"During the early stages of my ax sharpening search, the local old timers were rather vague with advice. They plainly did not think of head/edge shaping in terms of specific angles; if I showed them one of my axes, they felt the bit between their thumb and first finger and (usually) declared it too thick here or there… Only one of them, Arnold Hanscomb, was explicit: he laid a file between the edge and the centre of the ax's eye and said but one word: "FLAT! " He fixed my gaze and repeated "Flat… then you will have an ax that cuts." ALL our axes back then failed that parameter, most of them miserably. Though I later tried to meet his specs, I too failed, mostly because it took a lot of time along with many good files to properly convert the worn and abused old axes we had collected, which had the cheeks too thick to allow for the file (or other straight edge) to lay 'flat' -- that is to contact at once the eye and (almost) the edge.

If you go and check your axes, I would wager that they too would likely "fail" this test. An axe filed that extensively has its centerline negated through filing very, very far up the face of the axe. An axe filed that way does penetrate and cut extremely well, and the release is not terribly difficult, because if it's done right, the context between the different geometric factors is still (usually) synergistic. The further you go up the face of the axe, generally speaking, the thicker it becomes. So whether an axe bites an inch deep, or 4 inches deep, if you know your stuff, a bulge further up the face of the axe that is filed in that manner (using the straight edge) is going to eventually become a factor as the axe penetrates deeper. That is going to open the cut, create a point contact, separate the fibers, and penetrate very deeply to boot-- assuming it's done right. Every axe is different, and plenty I'm sure do not respond well to this kind of filing. It's dependent also on the wood you're cutting, and whether it's green or dry, or frozen.

I'm not telling you that you are wrong, just sharing my experience and thoughts. I'd like to see pictures of the way you file your axes if you have time.

I agree that you cannot always determine the centerline of the axe when purchasing via catalogue or internet. However when I can get an axe in my hand whether pre-buying or post buying I review it to determine what use it is best suited for in its design and then try to tune it accordingly. Hardwoods and softwoods can make a difference in the centerline. I'm also saying that educated buyers in those days would have soon learned which axe lines worked best for which applications and most would have bought via handling versus via picture. I can't imagine a logger or logging company saying--we'll just buy our felling axes where we get the best deal and let everyone file their axe to remove as much steel as necessary. All I'm saying is that I try to tune the axe to fit what it was suited for in its original manufacture. I'm also saying that manufacturers made a variety of designs for axes for a reason. Were all those specifically labeled by task--no. But they made different models because there were obviously different usages for axes ... so fit the axe label to the usage. If anyone wants to buy indiscriminately and then file away or weld on top of--be my guest.

Do manufacturers make useless gimmicks? Yes--but the market will eventually correct most of the useless products. They will either be redesigned or not bought--especially in vintage times when the axe was a primary tool. Gimmicks won't last. The buyers educate the manufacturer and the manufacturer educates the buyer and in those days there were astute manufacturers and users.
 
Great thread, gentlemen. I'm really enjoying it and learning from your different perspectives.
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I'll just add that thinning the bit by filing well back from the edge doesn't have to result in the loss of the high centerline. My best cutting banana grinds still maintain a shorter higher centerline within the banana grind. It's not an either/or thing. You can have both.

Also, some of you have mentioned blending in the primary and secondary bevels. I agree with this. I believe that axes sharpened with a filing jig or grinding jig should then be tuned with a little hand filing. A gradual curve without any transitional ridge is best, IMO. Lastly, hand filing allows you to leave the heel and toe a little thicker or more obtuse which makes for a more durable bit. You wouldn't care about this on a racing axe which might be resharpened after 60 seconds of use. But for a home axe or trail axe, durability of the edge matters.

I pretty much agree with everything stated.
I am not against filing up the centerline if need be for fine tuning. I'm also saying that if the axe is selected for the appropriate usage it should not need much more than a uniform primary bevel. This is especially true on some of the vintage Jerseys I have.

I'm just saying that I do not agree with the general blanket/broad brush statement that the proper way to file an axe is to create an inverted V on the centerline. That is an undiscerning approach IMO.
 
"I'd like to see pictures of the way you file your axes if you have time."
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Two pics of felling axes as you requested ... I don't know if you will be able to see what you want as I blued the heads after the initial profiling and the honing marks that are seen are from a more recent edge touchup.

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Now with the dawn of instant communication and information at our finger tips in seconds, esp with you tube, everyone is an expert at something. Personalities, opinions, methods abound. And there will be disagreements.

Each man must sharpen his own axe. If it works for you - then ok. Similar to religion, if it works for you then fine, but don't tell me you are the expert and we should do it the wAy you do. That pisses people off more than crappy technique. This guy has combined the two for the ultimate in not knowing what the heck one is talking about.
 
This is like Miracle on 34th Street when Santa knocks Mr. Sawyer across the head with his cane except instead of Santa it is Bernie Weisgerber......maybe.
 
All this high tech stuff including that MTDC junk by David Michael and Ian Barlow ( I know both of them, enough said), using a power tool to sharpen an axe, the oldest tool in human history, WTF.
The reason that the old ways are best is simple, it worked well for centuries. I started logging when all we had were axes and misery whips to fell and buck the trees.
I think most of you will not be suprised by my comments here.
THUNDERSTICK- I sure hope you plan on rehanging both of those axes as those are the worst grained handle I have seen in a long time, and loose the steel wedges
On second thought, I wished I had never discovered this damn internet thing.
Bernie Weisgerber

Sounds like you have an axe to grind..
 
well this is cool-- not every day does the star of "an axe to grind" show up in the forums. I personally really like the method Barlow utilizes to profile axes. It is a very accurate way to reprofile an edge. I used to think it was incredible amounts faster, but you definitely have to take lots of time to let the steel cool down, and if you don't practice on some pulaskis when you are first getting the hang of it, you will likely burn up your bit quickly and make stupid mistakes.

It is especially useful on very hard bitted axes that my files barely touch-- like this new CT pattern true-temper flint edge that i just got. My modern files aren't up to snuff against good (kinda) old steel, it seems.

That said, it is an incredible skill to be good with a file, and even though i use a power sander from time to time, i definitely use a file an awful lot. i am NOT gonna backpack with a generator! the damn radios are heavy enough.
 
Wait, the guy from An Axe to Grind resurrected a thread that hadn't been commented in for a year (almost to the day)? Just to bag on handles, power tools and the internet itself? He seemed nice in the video. Maybe he should just be happy that some of us care enough to keep old axes alive and do the best we can to get wood to hang them on (apparently he hasn't purchased a handle recently). Or that we use his knowledge as a go-to resource to that end.

I'm all for "old ways" but I like power tools too and it kinda makes me happy that it bothers certain people, as if it really has any impact on their lives or sensibilities.
 
I'll never give up my belt grinder, but I also won't ever stop practicing hand methods or finishing my work with a liberal application of elbow grease. :D Both are useful methods. Using a grinder does require precautionary steps that aren't needed with manual methods, though. Even better if you can get your hands on a slow speed or manual wet grinder.
 
Even better if you can get your hands on a slow speed or manual wet grinder.

On the topic of slow speed grinders...

Would it be possible to add a rheostat to a typical bench grinder to slow it down or control the speed, or would this somehow damage the electric motor? I believe I am being gifted one soon, and it could come in handy for damaged edges if I can get it to slow down. From what I've seen, some have speed control, some don't, and some things are damaged by lowering the power to them. When it come to electric motors and such my brain starts swimming.

Any suggestions?
 
This thread may actually be better than the axes and alcohol thread! How did I miss the discussion of capitalism through the axe industry!?

I use a belt sander on an axe sometimes. If there were more hours in the day, maybe I could spend more of them fixing other people's mistakes with a file, whether those people be manufacturers or axe abusers. Not to mention, any files you can buy today won't even think about cutting that old steel. They're garbage. Mr. Weisgerber, I'm a big fan. Would you happen to have any quality files laying around that you don't need? I'll pay you for shipping :)
 
On the topic of slow speed grinders...

Would it be possible to add a rheostat to a typical bench grinder to slow it down or control the speed, or would this somehow damage the electric motor? I believe I am being gifted one soon, and it could come in handy for damaged edges if I can get it to slow down. From what I've seen, some have speed control, some don't, and some things are damaged by lowering the power to them. When it come to electric motors and such my brain starts swimming.

Any suggestions?

Not likely a good idea. I'm no electrician but I believe you usually need three-phase power in order to put adjustable speed on a motor. The advantage of a slow speed wet grinder is that the water keeps the edge cool. It's still a reasonably fast-cutting stone (much faster than hand-sharpening on bench stones) but you aren't going so fast as to have a high chance of screwing things up too badly. The low speed is for, amongst other reasons, helping to avoid flinging water everywhere. For fairly inexpensive wet grinders, check out the ones by Grizzly (I like the G1036 because it has good clearance for long blades) or for a manual option I carry an Italian hand-cranked model with a 12" wheel that's easily converted to foot pedal power.
 
Single phase motors don't like to be slowed down much by normal means. Harbor Freight does sell a "router speed control" that you could use to dial back a small grinder (1hp or less), but you will lose torque very quickly.

The "right" way to do it is to use a three-phase motor, and a VFD (variable frequency drive) to power it. The cool thing with VFDs is that for smaller motors you can get 120V or 240V single phase inputs (to connect to home power) and 3-phase 230V outputs. The VFD converts the power to DC internally, and then back to AC again, so you get the "free" benefit of being able to convert single phase to three phase power. Opens up a lot of old industrial tools for home shop use. They also allow you to dial in the speed directly, and because of how they work, they retain nearly full torque across the speed range. My lathe has a 3.5hp WEG induction motor on a VFD that can run 100-4000 RPM clean and quiet.

Of course, that is getting pretty technological for sharpening an axe. ;)
 
The easy way to do it would be to just use a stand-alone motor with a step pulley on it going to an arbor with the grinding wheel mounted on it.
 
The easy way to do it would be to just use a stand-alone motor with a step pulley on it going to an arbor with the grinding wheel mounted on it.


This works well. I have a grinder like this. The nice thing about a grinder with a separated motor and arbor is that the motor doesn't get in the way of your work.

Old%20grinder1.jpg



To keep the arbor pulley aligned to the various step pulleys I mounted the arbor on slotted tracks. Wing nuts allow for quick toolless adjustments.

Old%20grinder2.jpg
 
This works well. I have a grinder like this. The nice thing about a grinder with a separated motor and arbor is that the motor doesn't get in the way of your work.

Great little setup. As an electrical engineer I always jump to the controls option, but sometimes there is a perfectly good mechanical solution waiting. Doesn't have any flashing lights or digital displays though. ;)
 
Power tools can sure ruin things in a hurry, be it steel or wood that you are working with. But they have there place even for those of use that prefer to just work with are hands.

Square Peg, I assume those are carriage bolts in the sloted tracks. Where did you get the sloted tracks? Did you have to make them?
 
Square Peg, I assume those are carriage bolts in the sloted tracks. Where did you get the sloted tracks? Did you have to make them?

Yes, carriage bolts that slide in the tracks. And yes, I made them myself. I laid them out with a fine point sharpie. I drilled a series of holes with the drill press, staying within the lines needed for the carriage bolts. Then I opened a hole with a cutoff wheel and finished them to the line with a file. I don't think it took more than a half hour - maybe an hour to make them. It would have been much quicker if I had a Bridgeport here at home.
 
Sorry about my post. The wife says I am getting old and mean. After all these years together I have found that she is usually right.
Let me start again. First you need to know that when I wrote the manual and made the video it was never intended to be for the internet. I was asked to make them by my employer (USFS). The purpose was to properly train USFS, NPS, BLM, etc employees who work in the Wilderness areas and are required to use only hand tools. Another purpose was for the carpenters who repair historic log buildings and ranger stations.
That said, my advice is this: find the right axe for your need, sharpen it properly, hang it properly for you alone to use, and then work with it every day/all day until you and your axe become one. Remember the reason you fix an axe is to move wood. So move wood! Make moving wood your goal and not how many different axe heads, grind patterns, handles etc. you can collect. Do I have more than one axe ? Yes. But I have two favorite axes- a 3.5 lb TT Kelly Perfect beveled Jersey with a 32" hand made hickory handle and a Plumb 2.5 lb Boys axe with a 20" hand made hickory handle. These are ALL I need to do about 95 % of all my axe work. I never change the grind, I am one with these axes and together we adapt as need be. I keep them very sharp, but let me tell you a story.
When I was filming the hewing segment I hit a old cut nail embeded deep in the tree during the scoring process. The log was cut on site at the historic mineing town of Garnett Montana. This is always a risk when cutting trees growing near civilization. I saw the sparks even though the camera did not. Have I sharpened this ding out. No. I keep the rest of the bit sharp but this ding is part of our history, the Jersey and me.
Some other thoughts. The reason I am down on power grinding is that there is a finite amout of good axe heads out there with the dedradation of good manufacturing that happens in todays world. There are too many boneheads looking at the internet info on power sharpening. You get the picture. Soon, all the remaining decent axe heads have been ruined. I have never come across a axe head that was only sharpened with a file that can not be put back in service. As for handles, things have come full circle and you probably will have to make your own. This is not the end of the world. The 32" on the Jersy I made about 45 yrs ago and is better than the day I made it. As for files, you might try having a good old USA made file recut. A gunstock maker friend who only uses rasps and files told me about 5 yrs ago the he had a source that acid etched them as good as when they were new. I cant find the info he gave me, so use the computer and see what you can find on this. I have no need as I have another lifetime worth of simonds files.
Let me close with this: For some of you who want to be "friends" I dont, and will never, know what that means. Sorry. Also this long message is at least one, maybe two years worth of computer work that I want to do. Dont expect to hear from me for a good long time.
Thanks,
Bernie Weisgerber
PS- My Hero is Dick Proenneke. Read " One Man's Wilderness" and watch "Alone In The Wilderness"
 
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