Elmax or D2?

[DeadboxHero]

Can't argue, majority rules.

My personal experience was different

Glad to share

 

[HST]

No. Never implied that, but a fact is a fact. You can't change facts. Bob can't make D2 that stands up to Elmax. It's that simple, therefore, it's remedial. I know a lot, but I certainly never implied that I "know it all."

However, since you members speak so highly of him, and I came here to learn, I will look him up. Despite that it was never part of the Op's question.

D2 doesn't interest me in the slightest - except maybe on a pocket knife - compared to today's new steels. CPM D2 or D2 is antiquated and to me is of very little interest. I'd own several knives, but they use D2, and I pass on those.

Apparently this guy knows it all (except who Bob dozier is) and everything is remedial to him.

 

[HST]

Bob Dozier is a living legend knife designer trained by knife legends. Just saying. Bob likes to use D2 in his knives.

I think that's all that the other forum member was saying as this is a thread about d2 and Elmax and I presumed regular d2 not the CPM version.

I will check him out. This is the third person to mention him, despite him not being part of the question in this thread. After all, I did come here to learn about knives and makers. Normally, I would have looked him up immediately; but his steel of choice is D2, so he became irrelevant to me at that moment.

FTR, and this isn't pointed at you and more of for FTR. Everyone pointed out Bob and that's all good and well. IMO, knife makers should master a steel and work with it, but that wasn't the question the OP asked.

"The song remains the same," any D2 will not hold up or out preform Elmax.

 

[shinyedges]

For many people in this hobby steels are more than the sum of their composition. Trying steels out and getting first hand experience while LEARNING about each steel is part of what i enjoy.

Experience with steels is apparently something you lack, but show up casting your inexperienced 2cents anyway.


Elmax does have advantages over d2, I've tried closer to 20 steels and can still appreciate d2. Point is ACTUALLY have experience to draw from instead of just reading, reading is important and I've done alot of it. But first hand experience is just as or MORE important.


Have you ever used d2?

In the end if you want to keep that attitude you have, oh well. It won't win you any friends here.

I will check him out. This is the third person to mention him, despite him not being part of the question in this thread. After all, I did come here to learn about knives and makers. Normally, I would have looked him up immediately; but his steel of choice is D2, so he became irrelevant to me at that moment.

FTR, and this isn't pointed at you and more of for FTR. Everyone pointed out Bob and that's all good and well. IMO, knife makers should master a steel and work with it, but that wasn't the question the OP asked.

"The song remains the same," any D2 will not hold up or out preform Elmax.

 

[shinyedges]

Oh and I'll take properly HT d2 over a hit or miss HT of elmax any day.

 

[HST]

Yea, I've used it for years, until I educated myself on steels for knives. I've spent several tours with D2 and it never measured up to the newer steels. It worked, but no where near as well. You really have a problem with reading comprehension and grammar. Like I said earlier here to you, go read and educate yourself, because you need it. I don't argue with idiots on the Internet, so I'm out of here and will put you on ignore if I have to. Have a wonderful day in LaLa Land.

 

[Morrow]

Gentlemen.....civil discussion without name calling is preferred. If you can't control yourselves, don't post.

 

[shinyedges]

Nice revert to name calling, because you can't refute. Most excellent.

Yea you wipe, I've used it for years, until I educated myself on steels for knives. I've spent several tours with D2 and it never measured up to the newer steels. It worked, but no where near as well. You really have a problem with reading comprehension and grammar. Like I said earlier here to you, go read and educate yourself, because you need it. I don't argue with idiots on the Internet, so I'm out of here and will put you on ignore if I have to. Have a wonderful day in LaLa Land.

 

[HST]

I was fixing my word - which was wipe - to just do the right thing. You're always argumentative and I refuted well. Wipe is barley a name call, but nice try.

Lalalalalalala...[emoji849]

 

[cchu518]

I think we all agree though you have to compare apples to apples and compare properly tempered steels in the same HR range before passing judgement. I can't say with reprofiling but for touch ups they come out about the same for me. I've never had an issue with s30v but I hear it alot, I've only been in the knife hobby for a few years and it makes me
think that they've perfected the ht for s30v. And I would say without a question that CPM makes any steel better in their format!

As far as Mr. Dozier goes I just love his knife patterns. Nothing gimmicky about them which is what I love!

 

[shinyedges]

Yea, I've used it for years, until I educated myself on steels for knives. I've spent several tours with D2 and it never measured up to the newer steels. It worked, but no where near as well. You really have a problem with reading comprehension and grammar. Like I said earlier here to you, go read and educate yourself, because you need it. I don't argue with idiots on the Internet, so I'm out of here and will put you on ignore if I have to. Have a wonderful day in LaLa Land.

Wipe huh?

 

[strategy9]

Oh and I'll take properly HT d2 over a hit or miss HT of elmax any day.

That's a catch22 though, because you'd take a properly ht'd elmax over a hit or miss d2 as well... I mean, I'd take a properly ht'd Buck in 420hc over a fudged up ht on m390...

Assuming the ht's are equal though, personally I would choose elmax over many steels. For me it has a good balance... I have limited experience with d2 but elmax has quickly become my favorite Steel because its properties are well balanced... I think d2 is easier/quicker to reprofile, but I don't find it to be by any significant margin that would shy me away... And the benefits of elmax are worth the few extra stroke IMO. To each their own though...

The one thing I will give a good batch of d2 the edge on, again in my experience, is it will hold it's working edge for a very long time, whereas elmax will hold it's fine edge longer, bit once it is gone, it seems to lose the working edge quicker. But again, it's not such a significant difference that It would steer me away... I don't have scientific data to prove it, I'm not a tester, nor do I have the time, patience, resources, or desire to sit and cut rope a few hundred times just to prove a point, but in my experience it certainly seemed as such... The old d2 rhetoric that "it takes an ugly edge and holds it forever" comes to mind, that certainly is one of the things I remembered about d2, it wouldn't stay scary sharp very long, but it wouldn't quit cutting anytime soon...elmax stays scary sharp for a decent stretch (similar to s30v), but once it starts dulling, it does get duller and duller at a noticeable rate... Maybe someone else can shed light to similar (or maybe even opposite) experiences?

 

[Morrow]

Am I speaking a different language? Knock off the back and forth BS or you're getting zapped. Continue to act like children and you'll be treated as such.

 

[shinyedges]

I agree, was kinda just making a point that there is ALOT that makes up how steel performs. Composition is just a single variable. Personally I wouldn't go with either as I like 3v better than both.

That's a catch22 though, because you'd take a properly ht'd elmax over a hit or miss d2 as well... I mean, I'd take a properly ht'd Buck in 420hc over a fudged up ht on m390...

Assuming the ht's are equal though, personally I would choose elmax over many steels. For me it has a good balance... I have limited experience with d2 but elmax has quickly become my favorite Steel because its properties are well balanced... I think d2 is easier/quicker to reprofile, but I don't find it to be by any significant margin that would shy me away... And the benefits of elmax are worth the few extra stroke IMO. To each their own though...

The one thing I will give a good batch of d2 the edge on, again in my experience, is it will hold it's working edge for a very long time, whereas elmax will hold it's fine edge longer, bit once it is gone, it seems to lose the working edge quicker. But again, it's not such a significant difference that It would steer me away... I don't have scientific data to prove it, I'm not a tester, nor do I have the time, patience, resources, or desire to sit and cut rope a few hundred times just to prove a point, but in my experience it certainly seemed as such... The old d2 rhetoric that "it takes an ugly edge and holds it forever" comes to mind, that certainly is one of the things I remembered about d2, it wouldn't stay scary sharp very long, but it wouldn't quit cutting anytime soon...elmax stays scary sharp for a decent stretch (similar to s30v), but once it starts dulling, it does get duller and duller at a noticeable rate... Maybe someone else can shed light to similar (or maybe even opposite) experiences?

 

[Twindog]

Elmax is one of my favorite steels. It's probably the toughest stainless going, and it takes a really nice edge. I've never liked D2, and CPM-D2 was discontinued mostly because its advantages over D2 were too small to be worth the price for most people.

With diamond stones, both steels sharpen up relatively easily. D2 has large, coarse carbides, so it's edge is never going to be as refined, but it will cut well because of the exposed carbides. When I started on this forum, the joke among the old timers was that D2 took a horrible edge and kept it forever. I can get a good edge with D2, but it isn't as good as Elmax.

Bob Dozier, one of the most respected knife makers, built his reputation in part on his heat treat of D2. It does surprise me that Dozier's D2 didn't do well in Ankerson's tests, and I don't know how to explain that. Some people have tested Dozier's D2 and found it one of the best steels for edge holding. If I remember correctly, AG Russell used to advertise it that way.

 

[cchu518]

The carbides are really the key to the OP's initial question btw. For that I would go Elmax all the way. I think this thread may have devolved a bit, lol. In discussing the virtues of each steel. By and large I don't really bushcraft much and the toughness of D2 for bushcrafting is a done deal. I haven't seen too many "outdoor" Elmax blades out there but Elmax is incredible (run at normal ht ranges) for folders. Takes a super slicey edge, I reprofiled my Elmax Blur and it kept its edge for regular EDC work for quite a long time. It and S35v are my favorite all around stainless steels for folders now. I find that they are basically identical in use and ease of sharpening. Never had a problem sharpening them, my set up is a crystolon (spelling?) for reprofiling, Norton economy two sided course and medium alum oxide for regular preparation of a blade and for refining I use a sharpmaker and a lanksy diamond turnbox. If you add in the aggressive stones/sticks or what have you and run it course according to how the guys in the maintenance and tinkering section tell you to do before doing all of the burr and removing the wire edge/bead you shouldn't have any problem getting most steels properly heat treated to pop hair.

Those guys in the M&T section are really helpful and there are several great threads and videos on you tube that basically taught me how to sharpen. I'm not particularly good at it, I scratch my blades when I don't pay attention and I'm still able to get every knife I own to hair whittling sharp. So I imagine that anyone could do it. For the leek because of its thinness I would go with the powdered steel Elmax in that knife format as it's a dainty EDC folder and I don't expect any hard use out of it.

 

[fsatsil]

Per an image from an old BFC thread, Kershaw DOES use CPM-D2 in the composite.

I've seen other references and seen other pics of the blades that clearly show CPM-D2. However Kershaw's own website only states D2. Strange. I wonder, did they change it at some point?

I'm curious about this as well because I had one years ago that was stolen and it was like the one in the pic and showed cpm-d2 right on the blade but the one I currently own doesn't say cpm-d2 anywhere. Here's a pic

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

A blade with given the same level of good quality heat treatment - Elmax would out perform D2 in most tasks, except D2 large primary carbides(MC) are beneficial for certain wearing tasks. Ease of sharpening also favor Elmax because of its smaller and more evenly distributed carbides. CPM-D2 equalized Elmax Pros attributes, except Elmax has slightly more carbon % (i.e. possibly traded in a bit of toughness for slight gain of carbide volume).

** rambling reasons behind IMHO above **
I've been tinker with ht-ing D2 (yes, ingot type) for over 2 yrs now. D2 is a bucking bronco in term of ht outcomes - where bad results are more or less guarantee. Bad = low toughness and huge carbides. I can get good & bad blades to dry shaving sharpness (at 8 dps) by using sharp diamond abrasive. However those edges don't support majority of cutting usages by normal user, thereby 'bad' in my eyes. D2 ingot rolled with large primary carbides (20-200um). It's very time and cost(electricity/power) intensive to break those large MC and distribute alloy elements. CPM-D2 done exactly that but also at a cost (expensive to buy), plus it's discontinued. I still have quite a few bars of D2 to tinker with, will still aim for besting cpm-d2 and other PM steels within shouting range.

In the other corner, introducing CTS-XHP contender to duke out with Elmax. Elmax hardness maxed-out at 63rc (by expert ht-er), whereas xhp can goes up to 66+rc. Recently, I made my first xhp 66rc test blade (paring design & acute edge geometry). Gut instinct tell me that my wanna be super D2 ht is already materialized in XHP without additional R&D. Cost of steel is still a concern. This concern is not the cost diff between D2 and XHP for a small blade - $5 vs $10/blade. It's more at bulk (tonnage) level, this where ingot win over cpm process, every time. A xhp blade at 66rc is no fun to sharpen (waterstone, SiC, ceramic, sand paper), except for diamond plate. Truth is, even a aebl blade at 64+rc is hard to sharpen. High matrix hardness will resist abrasive penetration, in affect abrasive will get dull faster because of increase carbide impact(also higher pressure) frequency.

I suspect, Elmax has higher(relatively) toughness and lower hardness by designed. It favors M23C6 over MC & M7C3. They figured that in normal usage, edge loss either in form of tear/deform and wear. aahh but the wear is mostly matrix wear, so why decorate with extra hard carbide when lower temp carbide and plenty of Si (for fine grain) are more beneficial for intended use. If one wants more MC, get M390/20V/204P instead.

A blade with ht-ed steel that serves you best, that steel is best for you -> no doubt :thumbup: ... until you have doubts

 

[cchu518]

A blade with given the same level of good quality heat treatment - Elmax would out perform D2 in most tasks, except D2 large primary carbides(MC) are beneficial for certain wearing tasks. Ease of sharpening also favor Elmax because of its smaller and more evenly distributed carbides. CPM-D2 equalized Elmax Pros attributes, except Elmax has slightly more carbon % (i.e. possibly traded in a bit of toughness for slight gain of carbide volume).

** rambling reasons behind IMHO above **
I've been tinker with ht-ing D2 (yes, ingot type) for over 2 yrs now. D2 is a bucking bronco in term of ht outcomes - where bad results are more or less guarantee. Bad = low toughness and huge carbides. I can get good & bad blades to dry shaving sharpness (at 8 dps) by using sharp diamond abrasive. However those edges don't support majority of cutting usages by normal user, thereby 'bad' in my eyes. D2 ingot rolled with large primary carbides (20-200um). It's very time and cost(electricity/power) intensive to break those large MC and distribute alloy elements. CPM-D2 done exactly that but also at a cost (expensive to buy), plus it's discontinued. I still have quite a few bars of D2 to tinker with, will still aim for besting cpm-d2 and other PM steels within shouting range.

In the other corner, introducing CTS-XHP contender to duke out with Elmax. Elmax hardness maxed-out at 63rc (by expert ht-er), whereas xhp can goes up to 66+rc. Recently, I made my first xhp 66rc test blade (paring design & acute edge geometry). Gut instinct tell me that my wanna be super D2 ht is already materialized in XHP without additional R&D. Cost of steel is still a concern. This concern is not the cost diff between D2 and XHP for a small blade - $5 vs $10/blade. It's more at bulk (tonnage) level, this where ingot win over cpm process, every time. A xhp blade at 66rc is no fun to sharpen (waterstone, SiC, ceramic, sand paper), except for diamond plate. Truth is, even a aebl blade at 64+rc is hard to sharpen. High matrix hardness will resist abrasive penetration, in affect abrasive will get dull faster because of increase carbide impact(also higher pressure) frequency.

I suspect, Elmax has higher(relatively) toughness and lower hardness by designed. It favors M23C6 over MC & M7C3. They figured that in normal usage, edge loss either in form of tear/deform and wear. aahh but the wear is mostly matrix wear, so why decorate with extra hard carbide when lower temp carbide and plenty of Si (for fine grain) are more beneficial for intended use. If one wants more MC, get M390/20V/204P instead.

A blade with ht-ed steel that serves you best, that steel is best for you -> no doubt :thumbup: ... until you have doubts

Great post! What would you consider regular rc for either steel, would you say 59-61rc? I'm in the rather not have a knife in my collection much harder than this as I don't want to deal with complicated sharpenings myself since I have only basic sharpening tools.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Hardness is inverse proportion to displacement of steel. Steel strength is the amount of dislocation that resists displacement (UTS = fracture, so glass is a poor candidate to perform rockwell reading ). Whew! I just managed to avoid getting into a quite protracted subject and OT as well

For light EDC use - subjectively speaking for Good ht - 62rc for both D2 & Elmax. ZFG + edge geometry ~0.012" BET, 15dps. You attain high sharpness for these steel sharpen with SiC stone. Top off with a dmt diafold E/EE if you want a sticky edge.

Great post! What would you consider regular rc for either steel, would you say 59-61rc? I'm in the rather not have a knife in my collection much harder than this as I don't want to deal with complicated sharpenings myself since I have only basic sharpening tools.