Emerson LaGriffe VS HideAwayKnives

[PiterM]

Almadjian, the Sting version is more utilitarian for my own outdoor applications I mean. That may be different for someone else, of course. Generally I like the fact that is stays in line with other objects I may have in my hand and that's my point. And especially when fishing, the blade of sting does not touch my fishing rod due to in-line shape when I play with the line/lures. Also I can trim lure easier than with my EDC standard HAK. As for cutting ability... both are the same for me. And one more pic, which also shows that with HAK you're not limited to just one grip, which can be considered another advantage I believe.

 

[Almadjian]

Piter,

Thanks for the great pics. We all benefit from those!

I agree regarding the utility you describe as being characteristic of the "Sting". That's the same as what I was talking about regarding the Griffe, which is a disadvantage (albeit a minor one) of the straight HAK. It's funny, but everything I see you doing in your pics I see myself accomplishing with the Griff.

Can you name one thing the HAK does better than the Griffe? I mentioned that you can use the HAK with a glove. That's about all. OK, and it rusts less. Big deal. I can have the Griff coated or plated as well. What else?

Note, I'm not trying to be agrumentative or to say my knife is the best or better than yours at any rate. I have never stooped low enough to engage in such banality. I am progressive and merely seeking to expound this important topic further.

 

[LaBella]

FrontSight wins.....believe you, me!

 

[frontsight]

Piter, your pictures are gorgeous.

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Hi LaBella, The cool thing about the knife industry is that lots of good purpose-driven designs can exist. It is not a "winner-take-all" business model like many industries:

I only own 1 refridgerator, 1 PDA, 1 cell phone.

Even before I started making my designs available to others I owned multiple knives. And I'm just a female.

Better is frequently viewed in terms of which has sold the most, and I'm sure that a bazillion more LaGriffe's have sold.

This is what I think matters the most:

Fred Perrin's work did something more important than just create a knife - he changed people's mindsets regarding small knives. Bigger is not always better.

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Almadjian, if you are not trying to be agrumentative, what in your words would be an answer or 3 to the question you asked Piter ?
("can you name one thing...")

I have been using almost every one of the carry positions mentioned on HAK's website and some that aren't.

What are the 'some that aren't'?

I'm interested in making available as many good carry options as possible. I definitely *don't* want to have to design and make them all myself.
ex: I recently bought a bunch of the MercHarnesses to make available to people buying my knife.

The carry options I designed (easy) and have manufactured (huge annoying pain making it almost not worth my time) are ones where there is no alternative option or the next best alternative was very lacking.

It's easy to have a good idea. It's another to be able to execute on it, repeatedly and with quality, and make it available for others.

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Hi Project:

Followup - These are the words of my vendor regarding the 440A heat treat:

"Your Utility HideAways are vacuum furnace bright heat treated. Then they are nitrogen quenched. The final hardness was 57.5-58 HRC tested per ASTM E-18. We heat treat exactly the way Kershaw does and our results were perfect."

Another thing about 440A - it took forever and lots of searching to obtain. The way it is easily obtainable is when you buy it like the big companies buy it, not the way I had to buy it (in sheets). And it was a lot more expensive buying it that way than I expected. Because compared to the big companies I cut a very very small quanity.

I almost went with something with a better "name" because the cost difference was negligible, but the other steel was less rust resistant. And stainlessness was Priority #1 with this Utility HideAway Batch #1.

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Here is the cover pic of the Tactical Knives with the article.

There is an excellent photo in this article showing a under-the-collar draw using SheathSticks - better than any I have taken. It shows exactly the location and "yank" that I practice with the HideAway at the exact same angle under-the-collar.

FrontSight

 

[PiterM]

Piter,

Can you name one thing the HAK does better than the Griffe? I mentioned that you can use the HAK with a glove. That's about all.

Hey, Almadjian, you nailed me now... in fact before your post I didn't realise that it's probably one of the BIGGEST advantages of HAK. If you live in CA or FL, or Las Vegas than you don't use the gloves too much, but in a bit colder places around the world I can't imagine using a knive, which cannot be easily & safely used without heavy glove on my hand. Take a look below and imagine this kind of weather for couple of months a year... and than imagine non-glove-friendly knife. Can you? I can't my friend So in fact this one reason alone is for me good enough to invest in HAK (note that "invest" doesn't instantly mean "fully switch to").

And even during summer or fall, when high in the mountains, I still wear gloves. You know, I've just realised that on every single picture of me & my backpack you can see HAK now. It's not just for show, it's rather that I treat it as "must have around" equipment. In September last year I've spent couple of days in Tatra mountains and you can believe it or not, but the accessability & ease of use made my HAK the most often used blade during this trip. Opening sealed meals, cutting lines, foil bags, some whittling also. Even splinter removal... well, I'm not the most skilled whittler

Another one... THE BIG advantage for anyone, in the summer or winter, doesn't matter You can use your hand as if there is no knife in there. But there is the knife, and ready. Take any knife, and open your hand. Try to climb a ladder, tie a rope, catch something, use flashlight (or gun) at the same time. Block & catch someone's hand. Man, that makes HAK my choice #1 for small SD blade.

And last but not least, be sure that I have big deal of respect to Fred. I like his work, he also thinks "outside the box" and some of his designs are simply so cool & sick at the same time that even I can't resist to get it. Street Surgeon is a premium example of such... just a small off topic, sorry.

 

[projectcantspray]

Thanks FS for the post on the heat treatment.

very appreciated.

project

 

[Almadjian]

Frontsite, Piter,

It's good to see dedicated people take time to present reasonable idea regarding this topic. I never was interested in polls (LaBella) or in popularity contests. I am interested in what works best for a given situation.

My misgivings regarding embracing the HAK whole-heartedly arise primarily from the blade configuration. The following will be my personal opinion, drawn from my own personal experience only.

A blade like the HAK "Claw" will be most effective if used solely for defensive purposes. The reason is that the primary purpose is to slice. Stabbing is secondary. Yes, with some tissue compression, you can more than double the damage of the stab, but that will not really be enough to stop a sizeable attacker. One must attack arteries (wrist, armpit, thigh, back of leg, neck) to cause enough significant blood loss to cause a determined attacker to go into shock. I believe the "hooked" type blade will most readily tear through heavy clothing if need be. Also one can still pick an eye and stab with this type of curved blade. Again, if used solely for defensive purposes. Yes such a blade could do other chores as well, but not as well as other blade profiles.

Now, if one primarily will use the blade for the myriad of tasks that Piter and I have in mind, then (IMHO) the "Claw" is the least useful. The "Straight" HAK would be mediocre, the perrin La Griffe slightly better.

I believe that the most useful blade profile for chores, etc. that could also be used very effectively for self defense would be Laci/Fred's "La UUK". Check it out here: http://www.szaboinc.com/index1.html

Such a blade configuration would eliminate most of the gripes I have been referring to in this thread. In a canted configuration such as that of the "straight" HAK version, there would enough belly to be able to cut with a "significant" part of the blade for chores. I would think that the blade would not be double-edges as is Laci's.

Such a blade would be the perfect Hideaway, as it were.

Now, the La Griffe, let alone the La UUK, would still be more potent if used in a reverse grip for defensive purposes.

As it stands, the La Griffe can do small camping chores more effectively, (IMHO) such as whittling, skinning game, preparing fish, etc.

The Perrin La Griffe looks more innocuous in a court of law, (IMHO).

As for as carry options, I like one that isn't perhaps as grand as you may think, but was suggested to me by the LAPD. They don't like to see people wearing neck knives in any sort of "tactical" location, as such carry shows a purposeful intent to use a blade for defensive purposes. They suggested a pocket carry. Frontsite, I like the "Ripp-cord" idea, but it could still be misconstrued by our PC, anti-gun society. therefore, why not make a nice leather pocket wallet sheat for it. That way, the next time you get searched by the cops, you will be carrying a tool in your money-clip, not a "human velociraptor". One could also retain a kydex sheath in pocket with velcro.

I really like the design, idea, and support that goes into the HAK line. I just think that with a diffeent blade configuration it would be slightly more useful. Also, the non-professional should be advised that carring an HAK in any of the carry modes suggested, while tactically more useful, would really be frowned upon in a court if you survive an attack and have to defend your actions.

 

[lreed]

One question I've always had about these category of "holed" knives:
As all these knives (emerson La Griffe, spyderco spot, CRKT bearclaw, and the HAK) are marketed as defensive knives, will that be considered a disadvantage on the court? I mean, even the blades on these knives are short, the DA can point out they are designed and advertized as weapons and question the purpose of people who carry such a weapon.

 

[kevtan]

Weapons of self defense and last resort. Yes.

 

[dsvirsky]

As for as carry options, I like one that isn't perhaps as grand as you may think, but was suggested to me by the LAPD. They don't like to see people wearing neck knives in any sort of "tactical" location, as such carry shows a purposeful intent to use a blade for defensive purposes. They suggested a pocket carry. Frontsite, I like the "Ripp-cord" idea, but it could still be misconstrued by our PC, anti-gun society. therefore, why not make a nice leather pocket wallet sheat for it. That way, the next time you get searched by the cops, you will be carrying a tool in your money-clip, not a "human velociraptor". One could also retain a kydex sheath in pocket with velcro.

LAPD suggested pocket carry? As in Los Angeles, California??? That seems like some pretty poor advice, given that carrying a fixed blade concealed upon your person is a felony in the state of California.

 

[Almadjian]

The La Griffe and some other knives of its type are also being marketed as utility knives. If you could come up with a viable reason as to why you were carrying, that is. It would be easier to defend yourself in court if you were carrying your "utility" knife in pocket, as opposed to a "tactical" position. I mean that yes, there are better places to carry such a blade, but I'm pretty quick from a pocket draw and it looks better to LEO's/juries.

Yes, as in LAPD. They didn't mind me carrying a fixed blade as small as the Griffe, but stipulated in pocket carry, not neck, elsewhere for the reasons I stated above. I don;t think it's a department decision, but when I go to LA, (very often) I always carry in pocket. Noone seems to have any problem with it. Also, the Perrin La Griffe looks "elegant", IMHO, as opposed to the more tactical look of the Emerson, HAK. It may be a little harder to defend one of those. I think Frontsite should post some utility uses for HAKs and maybe an article or two about field use. That way, in court when the prosecutor pulls up the website, there's more than defensive uses to see.

 

[PiterM]

Almadjian, you've said quite a lot about SD use of knife and legal aspects of use/carry such a blade as HAK or LaG. So please allow me one question, just that I understand you better: what are your qualifications and background?

 

[brownshoe]

Many if not most places in america allow you to carry knives as long as the intendend use is not as weapons. There is no distinction between defensive or offensive use of the blade. To me that is the biggest drawback of the Hideway. It is heavily marketed as a weapon. The more cops and district attorneys that know about them, the more users that will be arrested.

To compound the problem, many if not most places in america classify carrying a concealed weapon as a felony. Since the hideway is usually concealed, this means instant felony. Another problem is many cities don't allow fixed blades, only folders...once again the hideway is illegal by design.

At least with a custom LaGriffe it is not marketed as a weapon, its not specifically designed as a weapon, and its a piece of art made by one person. It is also not marketed as a concealed weapon. With a custom LaGriffe and a good lawyer you may not face prison time for your knife.

That's why the Spyderco Harpy is an excellent self defense tool. It is readily concealed, but marketed as a tool. With a curved blade, it can't be classified as a dirk or dagger. It's the nastiest legal knife to carry for self defense.

 

[Almadjian]

Brownshoe, excellent point. Piter, as for my qualifications, I have studied martial arts for years, since a kid actually. various systems. Boxing. Tae Quan Do from champ in South America, etc. As for knifework, I have studied Kelly Worden's and Hock's and JAK's systems extensively for years.

Truth be told, I've learned a surprising amount of stuff from an ex-army ranger that I used to train with, as well as a lot of practical stuff from an ex-con.

Also, my family has been in the armed forces, (my cousin just finished playing in the sand as a demo expert for the USMC, and returned in one piece! I have members in the navy, my uncle is an ex-cop and now a constable, my grandfather was a cop, etc. I'm lucky enough to be independently wealthy. My involvement with the fighting arts has been primarily in the area of security. I don't pretend to be some ex-Navy SEAL, or some such. I have the greatest respect for our armed forces and LEO's. However, I think one can learn from anyone who can demonstrate practical experience and subject knowledge.

No, I'm not about to begin to make videos and I'm really not interested in establishing qualifications so as to make myself the next knife guru. However, I stand by my words and experience, always trying to promote wisdom and practicality in a world of confumerism and "trick-of-the-week" gimmicks, (no, I'm not stating anything of the kind about HAK, just making suggestions for the betterment of the design/company, fellow brethren in arms.

Take an old heavy bag, wrap it tight with several layers of duct tape all around and have at it. You'll notice that when your blade becomes coated with the glue from the tape, it doesn't bite like before and will barely slice any more. You'll also notice that a blade with the profile of the "Hawk" will still rip with the tip of the blade due to the ergonomics involved-the is so much force at the right angle that the tip still penetrates enough to tear. Serrations a la Spyderco Civillian (although I don't like them) will prolong the effective tearing ability. Small blades like Perrin's Griffe will dull and become ineffective except for stabs, bouncing off when attempting to slice. Note, I'm talking about a long session, not just a few strikes. That's why I like the curved blade best if only for self defense. It can still stab and tear, even when dull.

Nevertheless, I don't prefer this as my EDC because it isn't as practical for my use as a blade with a little more cutting surface to it.

 

[frontsight]

then (IMHO) the "Claw" is the least useful. The "Straight" HAK would be mediocre, the perrin La Griffe slightly better.

You said above the "claw" (regular or ankle claw) is least useful, and the LaGriffe is better?

What blade shape is the LaGriffe?

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re: how LaGriffe is marketed vs HideAway Knife

The descriptive page on Emerson's site about the regular LaGriffe describes defensive scenarios:

"There is at least one school of knife fighting that calls for "de-fanging the snake." The idea is to make your opponent drop his knife, or at least lose control of his knife hand. A quick, deep cut across the top of the knife hand will slice through tendons and muscles so that the hand will release the weapon. It does not matter if your assailant is high on drugs or crazy, nor does it matter how big or strong he is, he will drop the knife, improving your survival chances by several percentage points."

The fact that you have a custom vs production LaGriffe is a subtlety that would be lost in a courtroom.

The Rescue LaGriffe is the version certainly marketed as a Utility Knife.

Separately from all this, the new Video Vault on Emerson Knive's website look really excellent:

http://www.emersonknives.com/LEMilitaryIndex.html

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I have been using almost every one of the carry positions mentioned on HAK's website and some that aren't.

What are the 'some that aren't'?

You said: "One could also retain a kydex sheath in pocket with velcro"

How did you make that work? Did you sew velcro into your pocket inside?

How would putting velcro in your pocket and on a sheath be perceived as more or less "bad" in a courtroom than using a static cord (Ripp-Cord) ?

I am certainly not a legal expert. I have been through one courtroom trial. And I live surrounded by lawyers. My boyfriend, roommate, and best friend are lawyers and I talk about once a month with a DA. Their collective opinion seems to be that if you have a clean background and your are in the right in a situation, a good lawyer will be able to do the other part in getting you out of a bad situation.

Frontsight

 

[Almadjian]

Frontsite,

I again would like to applaud your dedication and intelligent replies.

Re: the Griffe, I was referring to the Perrin, of course. And I was specifically referring to chores, not self defense in my statement you quoted.

The "Sting" AK you pictured is not, IMHO, the most useful for self defense. The one I feel would rip the best would be the "HideAway Claw". If I had to purchase a HAK today, I'd go with the "curvy" because of its utility potential. Still like the profile of Laci's La UUK the best though.

I agree about the Emerson tactical info/marketing/look maybe being lost in court. maybe. The Perrin, as an exhibit, looks much less sinister than a black Emerson. That is why I suggest posting an article or two where a HAK is being used, tested, for field work, not just self defense. At least one article would provide some legal rationale for possession of the HAK besides self defense.

With his great pics, maybe our friend Piter would do a small write-up.

Some carry options not listed that I have personally used:

a) pocket carry: velcro (sewn in). Yes that doesn't differ much from the effect of the Ripp-cord. Just two things: I REALLY like the concept of the Ripp Cord. Laci sold me on this carry method years ago. However, it seemed that at times I had to pull the knife farther out of my pocket than I would have liked to draw the blade, I didn't like the sheath dangling outside my pocket. Also, if I carry in a method touted by a tactical knife company, with their hardware, then I look like I had martial intent, if you follow me. If I do something homegrown, then I could say that the blade frequently falls out of my pocket (which it does if not retained in some way). I like the Ripp cord better than velcro, however.

b) pocket carry: money clip wallet. Kind of the same idea as your badge holder. In leather or velcro, with sheath retained in wallet in some fashion, the knife exits the sheath with a small thumb push and is in action the moment it leaves your pocket. I use this often and when getting some cash out nobody ever bats an eye at the little silver handle of the Griffe. If the handle were black they might not even notice it. This would be easy to employ.

c) neoprene wristband with pouch, for long sleeved shorts.

d) same as "c" but for ankle carry

e) baseball cap-blade velcro'd to the inside.

f) this I wouldn't advise, but duct taped, (I was swimming, go figure). I've seen a guy with long hair tape to the back of his neck too.

Frontsite, I like your designs and I can tell by your responses that you're big enough not to take my comments personal.

I would stress three things as progressive additions:

I would definitely like to see a HAK with a blade profile similar to Laci and Fred's La UUK.

Offering a pocket sheath in leather with a money clip wouldn't be a bad idea.

Posting an informative article regarding the utility of your knives. Stress a "knife for all seasons" as opposed to something primarily tactical in nature.

Regards,

Almadjian

 

[brownshoe]

Frontsight, Sorry for the confusion, I was not referring to the Emerson product, yes that's a weapon. Perrin's line of knives with a hole come in a variety of blade shapes and sizes, some of which are quite utilitarian. If you've ever seen a custom Perrin, you would know that it may seem crude, but it is also art. With a good lawyer, you may save your petuie from weapons charge, unfortunately with your product, a weapon by another name is still a weapon.

 

[frontsight]

Hi Brownshoe, No confusion - we just disagree on a point:

I believe the subtlety between a custom LaGriffe and a production LaGriffe would take all of 3 milliseconds for an attorney to dismiss and with all that's been written about the LaGriffe, and affirm it as a capital W weapon in the jury's eyes.

Posting an informative article regarding the utility of your knives. Stress a "knife for all seasons" as opposed to something primarily tactical in nature.

Hmmm good idea. Maybe I should call my next version of HideAway the Utility HideAway. That'll do the trick!

I think that difference would have as much import as "production" LaGriffe vs "custom" LaGriffe.

The legal types I live with and socialize with and talk with say that the factors that loom large are - having a clean background and position - being right in the situation, - having a good lawyer.

Not whether the knife is production or custom.

Or the most common steak knife, definitely not advertised as a weapon, but used frequently in murders and their users get plenty of convictions. That is because other factors far overshadowed the weapon (just a steak knife!)

FrontSight

 

[Almadjian]

I generally agree, Frontsite.

Production/custom-yes, no difference there re: courtroom.

Steak knives aren't all- try screwdrivers, scissors, and forks.

Nevertheless, I agree with Brownshoe that, as I have said, the look of a Perrin LaG is more elegant than tactical. That will help stack the cards in one's favor in court. I think that one could definitely argue the utility of a non-tactical application if more were made of it, instead of purely the tactical nature of such knives. This would be an easy thing to do, not necessarily design a new knife, but post an article with existing knives regarding their utility, kind of like how Piter explained himself in previous posts-excellent stuff there!

The Utility Hideaway, made with a profile similar to the La UUK would definitely be a best seller!

Cheers!

 

[martin j]

Yes, as in LAPD. They didn't mind me carrying a fixed blade as small as the Griffe, but stipulated in pocket carry, not neck, elsewhere for the reasons I stated above. I don;t think it's a department decision, but when I go to LA, (very often) I always carry in pocket. Noone seems to have any problem with it. Also, the Perrin La Griffe looks "elegant", IMHO, as opposed to the more tactical look of the Emerson, HAK. It may be a little harder to defend one of those. I think Frontsite should post some utility uses for HAKs and maybe an article or two about field use. That way, in court when the prosecutor pulls up the website, there's more than defensive uses to see.

This sounds fishy to say the least, I wuld like to know what LAPD officer will say this, you can carry folder of any size concealed but ANY fix blade concealed is flatly illegal in CA like mentione before. MAYBE LEO's in rural areas will be flexible on this point, good luck in urban area. HAK maybe illegal in CA/LA anyway because it will probably be defined as "knuckel" knife or "push dagger" which would put it in "illegal" classification for fix blade. This is silly law, yes, but it is very strongly enforced, LAPD who said pocket carry LaGriffe is OK won't be there to back you up in court.