Emerson "Wave Shaped Feature" Announcement

ALLHSS said:
Except Spyderco and Benchmade go after counterfeiters and production outfits, not an individual hobby knife enthusiast or even modder. There's a major difference.
Click to expand...

They don't?

Can you show me someone who is using their IP who asked permission and wasn't told to stop?

Spyderco is VERY VERY controlling when it comes to the circumstances of who can use the Spyderhole and the compression lock.
 
Scurvy092 said:
They don't?

Can you show me someone who is using their IP who asked permission and wasn't told to stop?

Spyderco is VERY VERY controlling when it comes to the circumstances of who can use the Spyderhole and the compression lock.
Click to expand...
Can you show me someone who was? I can show you about a thousand custom knives with thumb hole opening features.
 
ALLHSS said:
Can you show me someone who was? I can show you about a thousand custom knives with thumb hole opening features.
Click to expand...

No, you can't show me a thousand. You may be able to show me a few hundred at most.

And they are all licensed. Every one has a paper from Sal giving them the ok. Usually they are restricted to 50 pieces per model. I believe certain makers that they collab with are allowed to make as many as they want.

But they all have permission.
 
Scurvy092 said:
No, you can't show me a thousand. You may be able to show me a few hundred at most.

And they are all licensed. Every one has a paper from Sal giving them the ok. Usually they are restricted to 50 pieces per model. I believe certain makers that they collab with are allowed to make as many as they want.

But they all have permission.
Click to expand...
So Spyderco licenses to small scale makers and Emerson doesn't... pretty much what I'm saying.
 
Scurvy092 said:
Where are all these Anti-IP people when it comes to the Spyderhole or the Axis lock?
Click to expand...

I'm not anti-IP per se, but I do wish that Benchmade didn't make the only legal knives with an axis lock. But maybe that makes me anti-IP.

Also, the difference is that spyderco's trademark is a true trademark- meaning a distinguishing mark that can identify the model, but doesn't restrict functional usage of the same idea in a barely different shape. Look at the original Benchmade AFCK, to get both companies involved. Initially, they used a spyderco round hole with a non-patented linerlock. Now, they use an oval hole with their proprietary axis lock. Adding a few degrees difference to change a circle to an oval isn't a functional difference, but an aesthetic one.

An axis lock, or hook that catches pockets, are functional designs that do restrict functional equivalents according to the patent and trademark protections they have been given. Maybe it will be narrowed, but as is, they prohibit functional equivalents.

Zero
 
Last edited:
ALLHSS said:
So Spyderco licenses to small scale makers and Emerson doesn't... pretty much what I'm saying.
Click to expand...

Well AFAIK, no one started making spyderhole knives for several years and the retroactively go up to Sal at Blade and ask his permission.
 
ALLHSS said:
So Spyderco licenses to small scale makers and Emerson doesn't... pretty much what I'm saying.
Click to expand...

Emerson grants licenses. The question marks are how much does it cost; $10-15 per blade, how you pay (all up front maybe), does your company need to fit in with Emerson's worldview, and what else?

I'd guess the most likely issue is that it's a pay up front license & the price is too high for someone who's running on thin margins.

Why don't you guys turn your energy into crowdfunding CM a license?
 
Danke42 said:
Emerson grants licenses. The question marks are how much does it cost; $10-15 per blade, how you pay (all up front maybe), does your company need to fit in with Emerson's worldview, and what else?

I'd guess the most likely issue is that it's a pay up front license & the price is too high for someone who's running on thin margins.

Why don't you guys turn your energy into crowdfunding CM a license?
Click to expand...

Because Mr. Emerson hasn't said licenses are available for $X, so we would be raising money for nothing unless we know licenses can be bought free and clear.

Post some verified info, and if CM says he will continue to mod or make knives with waves if we buy him a license, then fine.
I'll pitch in.

Zero
 
Zero_Time said:
I'm not anti-IP per se, but I do wish that Benchmade didn't make the only legal knives with an axis lock. But maybe that makes me anti-IP.

Also, the difference is that spyderco's trademark is a true trademark- meaning a distinguishing mark that can identify the model, but doesn't restrict functional usage of the same idea in a barely different shape. Look at the original Benchmade AFCK, to get both companies involved. Initially, they used a spyderco round hole with a non-patented linerlock. Now, they use an oval hole with their proprietary axis lock. Adding a few degrees difference to change a circle to an oval isn't a functional difference, but an aesthetic one.

An axis lock, or hook that catches pockets, are functional designs that do restrict functional equivalents according to the patent and trademark protections they have been given. Maybe it will be narrowed, but as is, they prohibit functional equivalents.

Zero
Click to expand...

Yes, the Spyderhole trademark is a trademark for a true HOLE. It has been shown several times the slits, ovals, tear drops etc etc etc that other people use don't fall under the trademark.

Emerson's trademark is on a WAVE SHAPED opening feature. That's why other companies like DPX and DDR get away with slight variations and don't call it a wave.

Nothing at all is stopping CM from making an opening feature shaped like something other than a wave and calling it something besides a wave.

CM's issue was he was making a wave shaped opening feature and advertising it as such. If he changes the shape and calls it the Charlie Mike pocket hook feature or something like that, he's fine.

Just like with the Busse Talon hole. If you put a hole in a guard and call it a Talon hole, they are going to smack you down hard. If you move the hole a little and call it a lashing hole, they can't do squat.

Also the Axis lock vs the Ball Bearing lock, Bolt Lock, Hawk lock etc. Slightly different with a different name and you're fine.

CM was same shape/look and same name.
 
Ok, so you think if CM calls his mod something else EKI will be okay with it? That remains to be seen. And CM's mods did not always look like the Emerson wave, and by the wording of EKI's trademark that was posted they have attempted to trademark the mechanism of a hook that catches the "container" or pocket, so it would cover any such mod. That is my problem with it, in the vague wording of the trademark.
 
To clear up some confusion, this is the exact wording of the trademark:

The mark consists of the configuration of a portion of the goods, namely, a wave-shaped protrusion on the spine of the blade of a knife, with the crest facing toward the tip of the knife and incorporating rolling ridges on the top and continuing toward the rear of the spine of the blade. The dotted lines as shown are not a part of the mark and are indicated only to illustrate the placement of the mark. The lining is intended to differentiate the position of the knife handle and is not a part of the mark.

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn86276385&docId=PRC20150915074144#docIndex=4&page=1

So my question is, if you don't have "rolling ridges on the top" (aka Jimping) is it trademarked?

And what shape is a "wave"?

Zero
 
Presumably, it is only covered by the trademark if it is a similar shape to the illustration, positioned similarly, and has similarly-shaped jimping on the back.
 
Zero_Time said:
Because Mr. Emerson hasn't said licenses are available for $X, so we would be raising money for nothing unless we know licenses can be bought free and clear.

Post some verified info, and if CM says he will continue to mod or make knives with waves if we buy him a license, then fine.
I'll pitch in.

Zero
Click to expand...

So how do the other folks get green from EE to put an opening hook on the blade and call it a Wave?

I mean it says in their catalog descriptions that they're "proud to license the feature from Ernest Emerson".
 
Danke42 said:
So how do the other folks get green from EE to put an opening hook on the blade and call it a Wave?

I mean it says in their catalog descriptions that they're "proud to license the feature from Ernest Emerson".
Click to expand...

Yeah. I'm sure Mr. Emerson has given some companies permission, and they've paid whatever he deems necessary to license. However, maybe the companies he has licensed to were for strategic reasons. Spyderco got the license because he likes Sal (who doesn't!) and he knows they have a larger distribution network than any other quality brand; plus it offered an entry level (to EE) way to experience the wave, at $50 and $70 compared to $200 for an Emerson. Then, he licensed to ZT, and then later Kai, because he thought the design was interesting and wanted to see how his wave would perform on another knife design, then the lower-end kershaws were because Kai made a convincing presentation that he wasn't producing enough, and if they didn't fill the void with cheap licensed knives, chinese knockoffs would destroy his brand, because he couldn't supply the market fast enough.

Until evidence of an open and easy licensing process is made available, you cannot assume it's an open and easy licensing process. Notice how Benchmade produced some of the first Emerson designs for him, and they've done nothing since then? I suspect it's not an oversight.

Zero
 
I have no desire to "produce" knives. I'm just in love with nasty weapons. Making them adds legitimacy to my desire to have nasty weapons everywhere and on my person. To keep up this front, I have to move them. When I decide to make something, I'm gambling on recouping the money/materials I have tied up in it. Sometimes, I don't nearly break even. This whole CMFTW Knives thing ends up costing me in the long run... but it's worth it. The business cards I have give the impression that I'm an artist... not some mentally disturbed veteran who has an obsession with nasty weapons.
 
Brummie said:
Presumably, it is only covered by the trademark if it is a similar shape to the illustration, positioned similarly, and has similarly-shaped jimping on the back.
Click to expand...
I didnt see the illustration. Is there a link in EKI's original thread?
 
Charlie Mike said:
I have no desire to "produce" knives. I'm just in love with nasty weapons. Making them adds legitimacy to my desire to have nasty weapons everywhere and on my person. To keep up this front, I have to move them. When I decide to make something, I'm gambling on recouping the money/materials I have tied up in it. Sometimes, I don't nearly break even. This whole CMFTW Knives thing ends up costing me in the long run... but it's worth it. The business cards I have give the impression that I'm an artist... not some mentally disturbed veteran who has an obsession with nasty weapons.
Click to expand...

I'd love if you did a video explaining your constantly changing MO- why you liked the cuda, didn't like it, how that fed into the next project; when you moved away from open carrying fixed blades into the folding knives, etc. I would love if you did a chronological video of the evolution of your mindset between different weapon systems CM. Preferably with as much detail as possible from specific knife to specific knife; where the Demko fit in, where your karambit fit in; etc.

Zero
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top