JP, I meant Ernie was NOT doing too much in the custom field. Had to clarify this so I wouldn't get jumped on again.
-
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Emerson
- Thread starter JP
- Start date
- Status
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Bud,
Go Back and Re-Read the thread please. I said I was surprised to see you make the post that you did.
You had a couple of facts wrong. Usually, you are very thorough on your facts.
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Go Back and Re-Read the thread please. I said I was surprised to see you make the post that you did.
You had a couple of facts wrong. Usually, you are very thorough on your facts.
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 1998
- Messages
- 159
I too have been to his shop in Torrance, the address isn't hidden. Ernie and his wife were both very polite and I bought a few of the factory knives while I was there. I was given the brochure for the customs in case I wanted to order one.
I did see on wall next to the telephone a sign that said "If anybody calls about a custom knife order, get their order number and inform them that there is currently a three year backlog on the custom knives." This was meant to be read by whomever answers the phone.
He still is making the handmades for knife shows, AZCK just picked up a new CQC8 a week or two ago from him. Last fall Earl Stewart picked up 3 or 4 handmades from him at the Blade (Shot?) show.
I still stick to my original statement that I have never heard of a normal guy (non military, press, etc) who placed an order in the last 3 years for a custom knife and had it arrive.
--Doug
I did see on wall next to the telephone a sign that said "If anybody calls about a custom knife order, get their order number and inform them that there is currently a three year backlog on the custom knives." This was meant to be read by whomever answers the phone.
He still is making the handmades for knife shows, AZCK just picked up a new CQC8 a week or two ago from him. Last fall Earl Stewart picked up 3 or 4 handmades from him at the Blade (Shot?) show.
I still stick to my original statement that I have never heard of a normal guy (non military, press, etc) who placed an order in the last 3 years for a custom knife and had it arrive.
--Doug
I'm fascinated to see that there is still a forum extant that allows the hapless would be consumer the opportunity to voice his frustations and openly impune the integrity of a maker who has severely abused the trust of his clients. About six weeks ago a highly agitated {and inarticulate} Rennie Ranes, the moderator of the "Emerson Forum" on Knife Forums, emailed me and,with extreme prejudice,insults and mispelled words, kicked me off of the entire forum. Up to that point, I had been about the only voice openly calling for a redress of Emerson's unfortunate business practices. I often referred to the scandal of his show-lotteries while unbelieving customer-dupes stood by in shock as their knives were awarded to the person with the right number. Waiting time: twenty minutes! Les has the right approach. Address your grievances to the Guild. Certainly their bylaws prohibit members from treating customers in so cavalier a manner. I was formerly an associate {displaying} member of the Guild, and had dealings with makers such as Moran {an honorable gentleman} Loveless {very difficult} and Ed Henry {impossible} The thing is: All three actually delivered knives that I ordered. I GOT the knives! I will NEVER get my Emerson knife. It will go to someone who claims to be special ops or is first to hang around Ernies table. This will be be my last post denouncing the Emerson debacle. I am now going to play with my H.H. Frank folders and fondly remember how comparatively easy they were to receive from the maker. Good luck to all.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 15,223
I need to start this off by apologizing for not paying as much attention to this topic as I should have. While this is not quite out of hand, yet, it has the potential to turn Ugly very very quickly, and I feel that we are literally one or two steps away from this.
There are indeed two sides of every story, and elements of what both sides have said are true.
It's true that Ernie has been unable to deliver his knives on the times promised. It's a fact, there's no use arguing it any further. The guy is a victim of his own success. Like Bud, I personally discussed this issue with him at the SHOT show, and I was told the same thing that he was. Ernie and I had a nice long talk about what he's doing, his plans, and what's going on concerning his operation in areas like the forums here.
To reiterate, Ernie is aware of this problem, and he agree's, it's a *problem*. He is also taking steps to fix it, and as of February he was at the point where he can actually make headway in fulfilling his obligations. I'm sure everyone knows that they were still getting settled into their new shop and like any fledgling company there were certain sacrifices to be made. If Ernie wanted the Emerson Knives production side of the house to take fly, he had to personally oversee it, which naturally took time away from his producing the knives for his custom orders.
I would like to believe, however, that Ernie is a man of his word when he told me, to my face, that he is working on fixing this situation. One of the main points that was driven home in our conversation was that the employees on the production floor are now doing everything in their power to give Ernie the time that he needs to get behind the grinder and start knocking out the knives. Scott (I think that was his name) stated that his mission was to make sure that everything in the shop ran smoothly enough that Ernie got the time that he needed to fulfill his obligations. Now it is up to time to tell if Ernie will be able to produce his knives in quantities needed to catch up to his orders.
I will not comment on the practice of selling 10-15 customs at shows like Blade or SHOT via a lottery. I was there, I experienced it first hand, I was able to get 2 lottery numbers and "shill" for a knife dealer simply because I was at the right place at the right time. The ethics of doing something like this are not for me to judge, and there may be reasons for this that I do not know of or fully understand.
Please note, I am not defending the man, or his actions, I am merely relaying what I have *personally* seen or been told by the parties involved. Remember, there are two sides.
I'd like to think that he is going to do them in batches in order to save time, instead of doing them all in order of when the invoice was placed. 100 CQC-7's here, 50 CQC-9's there, you get the point. How he builds them is his buisiness though.
Also, you'll notice that the Emerson Knives Forum doesn't have much response from the Emerson team itself, probably because of the time issue involved. Another thing to remember is that there probably are a lot of his customers who are not online, on BladeForums.com (or Rec.Knives), and as such, can not say "Hey, I got my order!" Remember the 10-0-1 rule of customer service: An unhappy customer will tell 10 people about his experience, a customer who gets only adequete service will tell no one, and a happy customer will tell only *1* person. The Internet allows the unhappy customer to tell the *world* about his experience! And there are probably a number of people, who have gotten their knives, but were not completely satisfied, and as a result told no one. I won't even go into the people who probably placed orders, received them, and turned around and resold them.
So, what can we do to find resolution in this matter?
If you are a customer who is unhappy with the current situation, you are certainly within your rights to take the steps and measures that Les has researched and laid out here on the forums.
Les, you've done your part by providing this information to the customers out there, and you've stated your opinions on this matter. I would recommend you bookmarking the thread that you've explained the customers options in, and referring to that in the future, should this situation come up again, which I am sure that it will.
Here is my public offer to Emerson Knives:
We know that you are busy. We understand that you are working on this. Help us help you fix this situation. I would like to think that there are indeed invoices being filled. All we are asking for is an indication of where you are in filling them so that your customers are not in the dark anymore. To that end, you can provide us with a list of what "numbers" are currently being worked on, and we will post it for you. In fact, we'd welcome your prescence here on the forums, and if you could give us an update yourselves, it would go a long way towards allaying the fears of your customers. If you do not have the time for this, you can call me toll free at 1.800.969.7771 whenever you want to forward a message. We at BladeForums.com will do whatever we can to help you get the word out, so that your side of the story is indeed heard.
Let me reiterate that once again: There are 2 sides. Our mission here at BladeForums.com is the furtherment of knife related information for the entire industry, from the end user/ customer to the large manufacturer, and everyone in between.
As such, we have to tell the good with the bad. However, I will not tolerate the use of these forums as a tool for a personal vendetta against any one person or company, we should be above that. BladeForums.com is bigger than any one person's opinions, and our staff is expected to remain impartial in their positions as moderators. Les, you have done an excellent job informing the forum members of what their options are, and you have stated your opinions on this matter unequivocally. Until such time as we have heard back from Emerson Knives and given them their chance to state their side of the story, I would ask that you take a step back from *this* issue, and strictly relay the information that you have already provided. Clearly you have a stake in this, and as such I would prefer if you would give the other side a chance now.
Emerson Knives will be afforded every opportunity to state their side of the story here, and I certainly hope that this situation gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Again, *we* at BladeForums.com will do everything *we* can to help this situation, and I personally will be more than happy to lend whatever assistance is needed to make sure that *both* sides of the story are told.
If we can help effect some change as well, so much the better. To echo what other's have said, "Good luck, I hope it works out".
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
There are indeed two sides of every story, and elements of what both sides have said are true.
It's true that Ernie has been unable to deliver his knives on the times promised. It's a fact, there's no use arguing it any further. The guy is a victim of his own success. Like Bud, I personally discussed this issue with him at the SHOT show, and I was told the same thing that he was. Ernie and I had a nice long talk about what he's doing, his plans, and what's going on concerning his operation in areas like the forums here.
To reiterate, Ernie is aware of this problem, and he agree's, it's a *problem*. He is also taking steps to fix it, and as of February he was at the point where he can actually make headway in fulfilling his obligations. I'm sure everyone knows that they were still getting settled into their new shop and like any fledgling company there were certain sacrifices to be made. If Ernie wanted the Emerson Knives production side of the house to take fly, he had to personally oversee it, which naturally took time away from his producing the knives for his custom orders.
I would like to believe, however, that Ernie is a man of his word when he told me, to my face, that he is working on fixing this situation. One of the main points that was driven home in our conversation was that the employees on the production floor are now doing everything in their power to give Ernie the time that he needs to get behind the grinder and start knocking out the knives. Scott (I think that was his name) stated that his mission was to make sure that everything in the shop ran smoothly enough that Ernie got the time that he needed to fulfill his obligations. Now it is up to time to tell if Ernie will be able to produce his knives in quantities needed to catch up to his orders.
I will not comment on the practice of selling 10-15 customs at shows like Blade or SHOT via a lottery. I was there, I experienced it first hand, I was able to get 2 lottery numbers and "shill" for a knife dealer simply because I was at the right place at the right time. The ethics of doing something like this are not for me to judge, and there may be reasons for this that I do not know of or fully understand.
Please note, I am not defending the man, or his actions, I am merely relaying what I have *personally* seen or been told by the parties involved. Remember, there are two sides.
I'd like to think that he is going to do them in batches in order to save time, instead of doing them all in order of when the invoice was placed. 100 CQC-7's here, 50 CQC-9's there, you get the point. How he builds them is his buisiness though.
Also, you'll notice that the Emerson Knives Forum doesn't have much response from the Emerson team itself, probably because of the time issue involved. Another thing to remember is that there probably are a lot of his customers who are not online, on BladeForums.com (or Rec.Knives), and as such, can not say "Hey, I got my order!" Remember the 10-0-1 rule of customer service: An unhappy customer will tell 10 people about his experience, a customer who gets only adequete service will tell no one, and a happy customer will tell only *1* person. The Internet allows the unhappy customer to tell the *world* about his experience! And there are probably a number of people, who have gotten their knives, but were not completely satisfied, and as a result told no one. I won't even go into the people who probably placed orders, received them, and turned around and resold them.
So, what can we do to find resolution in this matter?
If you are a customer who is unhappy with the current situation, you are certainly within your rights to take the steps and measures that Les has researched and laid out here on the forums.
Les, you've done your part by providing this information to the customers out there, and you've stated your opinions on this matter. I would recommend you bookmarking the thread that you've explained the customers options in, and referring to that in the future, should this situation come up again, which I am sure that it will.
Here is my public offer to Emerson Knives:
We know that you are busy. We understand that you are working on this. Help us help you fix this situation. I would like to think that there are indeed invoices being filled. All we are asking for is an indication of where you are in filling them so that your customers are not in the dark anymore. To that end, you can provide us with a list of what "numbers" are currently being worked on, and we will post it for you. In fact, we'd welcome your prescence here on the forums, and if you could give us an update yourselves, it would go a long way towards allaying the fears of your customers. If you do not have the time for this, you can call me toll free at 1.800.969.7771 whenever you want to forward a message. We at BladeForums.com will do whatever we can to help you get the word out, so that your side of the story is indeed heard.
Let me reiterate that once again: There are 2 sides. Our mission here at BladeForums.com is the furtherment of knife related information for the entire industry, from the end user/ customer to the large manufacturer, and everyone in between.
As such, we have to tell the good with the bad. However, I will not tolerate the use of these forums as a tool for a personal vendetta against any one person or company, we should be above that. BladeForums.com is bigger than any one person's opinions, and our staff is expected to remain impartial in their positions as moderators. Les, you have done an excellent job informing the forum members of what their options are, and you have stated your opinions on this matter unequivocally. Until such time as we have heard back from Emerson Knives and given them their chance to state their side of the story, I would ask that you take a step back from *this* issue, and strictly relay the information that you have already provided. Clearly you have a stake in this, and as such I would prefer if you would give the other side a chance now.
Emerson Knives will be afforded every opportunity to state their side of the story here, and I certainly hope that this situation gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Again, *we* at BladeForums.com will do everything *we* can to help this situation, and I personally will be more than happy to lend whatever assistance is needed to make sure that *both* sides of the story are told.
If we can help effect some change as well, so much the better. To echo what other's have said, "Good luck, I hope it works out".
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Kevin,
Trust me Emerson is aware of everything that goes on concerning him.
As to him responding he will not open himself up all the questions. This means he would have to answer them.
If he does not address the questions put forward to him on his own forum on KnifeForums. What makes you think he will take the time to answer the questions put forth in this forum.
I am still waiting on a response to a registered letter sent by my attorney (in response to a letter from his attorney). One of the charges he made was that I was lying about the fact that he could not deliver knive on time. That seems kind of humorus now.
Note, that he has had several opportunites to talk with me about the allegations his attornies. He was behind me for 3 days at the New York Custom knife show last November.
Spark, you do not maker you living in custom knives. Emerson is a open sore for many users and collectors. He has given many a very bad first experience by not doing as he promised. This hurts all who are involved in custom knives. As they may, incorrectly, think that all makers lack the integrity that Emerson does.
While I appreciate your trying to be "politically correct". As a fellow Airborne soldier you know that you know that you stand for something or you stand for nothing.
There is no reason to close this thread or even modify it.
Spark, the facts speak for themselves. There is nothing that keeps Emerson from addressing this forum. NOTHING!!!!
Dont defend him, he can speak for himself.
I have personally discussed Emerson with Bob Terzuola. Additionally, I have provided over a dozen indviduals Al Pendray's Address and Phone number to file a "Formal Written Complaint" to the Knifemakers Guild.
As far as him working in batches. Here is something for you to consider.
If he were given 3 years to complete the 3,000 orders he was "QUOTED" as saying he had in Blade Magazine that came out in Novemeber 1997. It would take him 10 hours a day for 3 years, EVERY DAY, no time off, no holidays, no sick days, no shows, no knife seminars, nothing but making knives.
We all know he is not going to accomplish this. So his claim of a 3 year wait is not the truth. He is closer to 5 years behind.
Why doesnt he admit that.
Kevin, this forum has received countless compliments because someone is taking a stand and providing useful information on how to get problems resolved. Additionally, I have received countless emails thanking me for providing contacts to our memebers to resolve issues, not just with Emerson but other knife makers who are not doing as they have said they would.
I stand by everything I have written.
As far as you not paying as much attention to this forum as you should be. I dont need a baby sitter. Kevin we all acknowledge your expertise in computers. Its time for you to acknowledge that I posses the same expertise in custom knives.
Who just had their knives on the cover of Tactical Knives. Who was interviewed and quoted in the May 99 issue of Blade Magazine. Who is taking the lead on the custom knife seminar to be conducted Saturday at the Blade Show this year. Thats right Kevin..Me, the moderator of this forum.
If it seems Im irritated I am. I grow tired of those trying to defend Emerson. Its time for him to be held accountable.
Kevin, I challange you to find someone (non-spec-ops community) who has had knife delivered to them by Emerson in the last 3 years. Just 1 Kevin.
Of course that is a rehtorical challange. It has been put forth over at least the last year on both forums. With not one person stepping forward.
Kevin, during the Gulf War, a STRAC 82nd Infantry SFC (E-7)(you know the type) was interviewed by the press he was asked on the eve of the war starting what were his thoughts this.
His response was succient and to the point. The politicians and statesmen have had their opportunity to resolve this. Now it's time for them to step aside and let the professionals take over. Hooah!
Spark, when it comes to custom knives, I am the professional! I buy and sell and design more custom tactical knives than anyone else in the world! These words are not written to pacify my ego. They are written to let all those who read these. I GIVE A DAMN ABOUT CUSTOM KNIVES. I am willing to say so. Every time I sell a knife or give my opinion I put my integrity on the line.
Kevin, I deal in the truth and not lip service. I was dealing with Emerson before you even knew who he was.
With all this said. I will wait for Emerson to respond (care to make a side bet). I will try to limit my responses to just informing those who wish to write to Al Pendray as to the procedure for getting their money back as none will recieve their knives. Sorry guys.
If this were not such a sore point with so many thousands (thats right, thousands) of knife buyers this thread would not go on for weeks.
I know return you to your regularly scheduled thread!
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Trust me Emerson is aware of everything that goes on concerning him.
As to him responding he will not open himself up all the questions. This means he would have to answer them.
If he does not address the questions put forward to him on his own forum on KnifeForums. What makes you think he will take the time to answer the questions put forth in this forum.
I am still waiting on a response to a registered letter sent by my attorney (in response to a letter from his attorney). One of the charges he made was that I was lying about the fact that he could not deliver knive on time. That seems kind of humorus now.
Note, that he has had several opportunites to talk with me about the allegations his attornies. He was behind me for 3 days at the New York Custom knife show last November.
Spark, you do not maker you living in custom knives. Emerson is a open sore for many users and collectors. He has given many a very bad first experience by not doing as he promised. This hurts all who are involved in custom knives. As they may, incorrectly, think that all makers lack the integrity that Emerson does.
While I appreciate your trying to be "politically correct". As a fellow Airborne soldier you know that you know that you stand for something or you stand for nothing.
There is no reason to close this thread or even modify it.
Spark, the facts speak for themselves. There is nothing that keeps Emerson from addressing this forum. NOTHING!!!!
Dont defend him, he can speak for himself.
I have personally discussed Emerson with Bob Terzuola. Additionally, I have provided over a dozen indviduals Al Pendray's Address and Phone number to file a "Formal Written Complaint" to the Knifemakers Guild.
As far as him working in batches. Here is something for you to consider.
If he were given 3 years to complete the 3,000 orders he was "QUOTED" as saying he had in Blade Magazine that came out in Novemeber 1997. It would take him 10 hours a day for 3 years, EVERY DAY, no time off, no holidays, no sick days, no shows, no knife seminars, nothing but making knives.
We all know he is not going to accomplish this. So his claim of a 3 year wait is not the truth. He is closer to 5 years behind.
Why doesnt he admit that.
Kevin, this forum has received countless compliments because someone is taking a stand and providing useful information on how to get problems resolved. Additionally, I have received countless emails thanking me for providing contacts to our memebers to resolve issues, not just with Emerson but other knife makers who are not doing as they have said they would.
I stand by everything I have written.
As far as you not paying as much attention to this forum as you should be. I dont need a baby sitter. Kevin we all acknowledge your expertise in computers. Its time for you to acknowledge that I posses the same expertise in custom knives.
Who just had their knives on the cover of Tactical Knives. Who was interviewed and quoted in the May 99 issue of Blade Magazine. Who is taking the lead on the custom knife seminar to be conducted Saturday at the Blade Show this year. Thats right Kevin..Me, the moderator of this forum.
If it seems Im irritated I am. I grow tired of those trying to defend Emerson. Its time for him to be held accountable.
Kevin, I challange you to find someone (non-spec-ops community) who has had knife delivered to them by Emerson in the last 3 years. Just 1 Kevin.
Of course that is a rehtorical challange. It has been put forth over at least the last year on both forums. With not one person stepping forward.
Kevin, during the Gulf War, a STRAC 82nd Infantry SFC (E-7)(you know the type) was interviewed by the press he was asked on the eve of the war starting what were his thoughts this.
His response was succient and to the point. The politicians and statesmen have had their opportunity to resolve this. Now it's time for them to step aside and let the professionals take over. Hooah!
Spark, when it comes to custom knives, I am the professional! I buy and sell and design more custom tactical knives than anyone else in the world! These words are not written to pacify my ego. They are written to let all those who read these. I GIVE A DAMN ABOUT CUSTOM KNIVES. I am willing to say so. Every time I sell a knife or give my opinion I put my integrity on the line.
Kevin, I deal in the truth and not lip service. I was dealing with Emerson before you even knew who he was.
With all this said. I will wait for Emerson to respond (care to make a side bet). I will try to limit my responses to just informing those who wish to write to Al Pendray as to the procedure for getting their money back as none will recieve their knives. Sorry guys.
If this were not such a sore point with so many thousands (thats right, thousands) of knife buyers this thread would not go on for weeks.
I know return you to your regularly scheduled thread!
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
The assertion that every story has two sides implies that both sides of the story have merit.
Given the large number of complaints and the revelation that custom folders are available at shows while long standing custom orders are going unfilled, I find the two sides to every story argument insulting.
The other side of the story seems to be that he's busy running the production operation so there's little time to make customs. That makes sense. Ok, so he'd rather make production knives and try to make more money than stand around and make custom knives all day. His choice.
But, the only honorable and honest thing to do is refund the deposits for the customs he doesn't have the time to make. Why wouldn't he do that?
Let's see; 3000 orders at $25 = $75,000. Maybe that's part of how he financed his manufacturing equipment. Maybe he doesn't have the $75,000 to refund.
------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight
Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
Given the large number of complaints and the revelation that custom folders are available at shows while long standing custom orders are going unfilled, I find the two sides to every story argument insulting.
The other side of the story seems to be that he's busy running the production operation so there's little time to make customs. That makes sense. Ok, so he'd rather make production knives and try to make more money than stand around and make custom knives all day. His choice.
But, the only honorable and honest thing to do is refund the deposits for the customs he doesn't have the time to make. Why wouldn't he do that?
Let's see; 3000 orders at $25 = $75,000. Maybe that's part of how he financed his manufacturing equipment. Maybe he doesn't have the $75,000 to refund.
------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight
Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Ron,
Im sure the $75,000 was in no way being used to fund any other business ventures. Technically, deposits should be held in an escrow account, then removed as each item for which the deposit was given was produced.
Now, this is not to say that this escrow account cannot be put into a interest bearing account. Of course all interest would be considered earned income and would have to be reported as such. The IRS is always looking for those who do not match their returns with the 1099's which the institution holding the money would report to the IRS.
Should these funds not be in a escrow type account, civil and possible criminal action could be taken.
Another avenue to explore is contacting the City of Torreance or the Orange County Better Business Bureau.
Again, funds that have been sent via the US mail are subject to all the laws that protect the mail.
The taking of a deposit enters both parties into a contract. A legally binding contract.
This is why the Guild asks for proof when a complaint is filed. A cancelled check is sufficient for this.
Here is a definition that people who are intersted in this thread should take note of.
FRAUD: Usually consists of a misrepresentation , concealment or nondisclosure of a material fact, or at least misleading conduct, devices, or contrivance.
Misrepresentation: Untrue statement, whether unintentional or deliberate. It may be a form of nondisclosure where there is a duty to disclose, or planned creation of a flase appearance.
Duty: Obligation of a Fiduciary or other person in a responsible person.
We will dispense with definitions of integrity or honor.
A registered letter from you, asking for your deposit back, is within your rights under the Federal Consumer Protection Act is perfectly legal. The grounds are based on a contratual obligation by the individual producing the product to produce said product within pre-set time limits. Failure to do so, negates the contract and there by obligates the deposit receipient to return the money to the party asking for it.
Business Law is an interesting subject.
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Im sure the $75,000 was in no way being used to fund any other business ventures. Technically, deposits should be held in an escrow account, then removed as each item for which the deposit was given was produced.
Now, this is not to say that this escrow account cannot be put into a interest bearing account. Of course all interest would be considered earned income and would have to be reported as such. The IRS is always looking for those who do not match their returns with the 1099's which the institution holding the money would report to the IRS.
Should these funds not be in a escrow type account, civil and possible criminal action could be taken.
Another avenue to explore is contacting the City of Torreance or the Orange County Better Business Bureau.
Again, funds that have been sent via the US mail are subject to all the laws that protect the mail.
The taking of a deposit enters both parties into a contract. A legally binding contract.
This is why the Guild asks for proof when a complaint is filed. A cancelled check is sufficient for this.
Here is a definition that people who are intersted in this thread should take note of.
FRAUD: Usually consists of a misrepresentation , concealment or nondisclosure of a material fact, or at least misleading conduct, devices, or contrivance.
Misrepresentation: Untrue statement, whether unintentional or deliberate. It may be a form of nondisclosure where there is a duty to disclose, or planned creation of a flase appearance.
Duty: Obligation of a Fiduciary or other person in a responsible person.
We will dispense with definitions of integrity or honor.
A registered letter from you, asking for your deposit back, is within your rights under the Federal Consumer Protection Act is perfectly legal. The grounds are based on a contratual obligation by the individual producing the product to produce said product within pre-set time limits. Failure to do so, negates the contract and there by obligates the deposit receipient to return the money to the party asking for it.
Business Law is an interesting subject.
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
Les,
Spark's intentions were not to make you hold back your opinions. You are much like myself in that you speak your mind when you feel like it. Is this good for a moderator? Who knows but it got me kicked off Knife forums
What Spark was trying to convey, that obviously got lost in the message,
was that we did not want this thread to turn into an Emerson bashing thread and anyone who wants a piece of his collective ass should jump aboard.
Now for the record I have personally placed about a dozen phone calls to Ernie and not one call was ever returned. Out of the 4 emails not one was ever replied to. It seems the only time I get to talk to him is at shows.
I have met Ernie several times and I know what his situation is. He is welcome to correct me should I be wrong.
His very own success has bitten him on the ass. I know it, you (Les) know it, he knows it and everyone else who has an IQ above 60 knows it. Whether or not he can recognize it is up to him. I have been through the very same situation myself. The ball is now in his court and it is up to him to decide what to do with it. Remember everyone will reap what they sow. It is not up to you, me or Spark to make it a personal objective to make sure everyone knows about Ernie's business practices. What I mean here is that
everyone who has read the thread to this point, gets the point and to belabor the point is pointless, get the point
This is my site, I own it and I say what goes here. And what goes here is that the members get the facts and just the facts and not any personally skewed view. Mine or anyone else's. I know that what you have said so far is based on facts so no need to read into that statement any farther. It is
just meant as a warning to not turn this into a personal vendetta.
Spark was simply trying to smooth the atmosphere back a bit to where the
original thread started.
I don't like seeing people getting screwed, and after meeting Ernie several times I do not think he is consciously and purposely screwing anyone. I think that he is overwhelmed by his success and the popularity of his knives and he does not have the proper infrastructure necessary to handle the work load. He did not take into account the amount of time necessary to
complete his custom knives in a timely manner. His statement in Blade attests to that fact alone or that he can not do simple math.Does this make him out to be an ass? No, it just means he screwed up and now he needs to make it right.
What would I do?
I would contact each person who has a deposit and tell them that there is
no practical way to get their knife to them in a timely manner. I would offer them a few options on how to rectify it.
Option A) I will refund your $25 or whatever the deposit amount.
Option B) I will apply your deposit against a production version of the
knife you ordered at a wholesale price (Not the retail)
Option C) I will hold your deposit against making your knife and let you know that it will be much longer than I thought. Maybe 5 years.
I bet (Side bets taken) that most would opt for the B option and this would alleviate nearly half or more of his back log. Once they read option C, and the brick hits the floor, they will look very hard at the other 2 options.
Finally, NO MORE DAMN LOTTERIES! This is a slap in the face to
anyone who has ever placed an order with him. I know that if I was at a show and saw a
knife that I had ordered years previous and saw that it was up for an auction, that someone who had never even ordered a knife could get, I would personally be EXTREMELY PISSED OFF!
So Ernie if you read this STOP THAT CRAP! Or at least explain why you do it in a way that would not insult either of our intelligences.
This is what he should be doing right NOW. Anymore ignoring the obvious problem and he will just simply create such a bad atmosphere that no one will want to breath the stale air.
Now with that said I will not close this thread, Les can if he wants but I
doubt he will and Ernie if you are out there and read this PLEASE respond as I will never, ever call you again myself. See ya at the Blade Show Ernie (Booth 85).
1-800-969-7771
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Spark's intentions were not to make you hold back your opinions. You are much like myself in that you speak your mind when you feel like it. Is this good for a moderator? Who knows but it got me kicked off Knife forums
What Spark was trying to convey, that obviously got lost in the message,
was that we did not want this thread to turn into an Emerson bashing thread and anyone who wants a piece of his collective ass should jump aboard.
Now for the record I have personally placed about a dozen phone calls to Ernie and not one call was ever returned. Out of the 4 emails not one was ever replied to. It seems the only time I get to talk to him is at shows.
I have met Ernie several times and I know what his situation is. He is welcome to correct me should I be wrong.
His very own success has bitten him on the ass. I know it, you (Les) know it, he knows it and everyone else who has an IQ above 60 knows it. Whether or not he can recognize it is up to him. I have been through the very same situation myself. The ball is now in his court and it is up to him to decide what to do with it. Remember everyone will reap what they sow. It is not up to you, me or Spark to make it a personal objective to make sure everyone knows about Ernie's business practices. What I mean here is that
everyone who has read the thread to this point, gets the point and to belabor the point is pointless, get the point
This is my site, I own it and I say what goes here. And what goes here is that the members get the facts and just the facts and not any personally skewed view. Mine or anyone else's. I know that what you have said so far is based on facts so no need to read into that statement any farther. It is
just meant as a warning to not turn this into a personal vendetta.
Spark was simply trying to smooth the atmosphere back a bit to where the
original thread started.
I don't like seeing people getting screwed, and after meeting Ernie several times I do not think he is consciously and purposely screwing anyone. I think that he is overwhelmed by his success and the popularity of his knives and he does not have the proper infrastructure necessary to handle the work load. He did not take into account the amount of time necessary to
complete his custom knives in a timely manner. His statement in Blade attests to that fact alone or that he can not do simple math.Does this make him out to be an ass? No, it just means he screwed up and now he needs to make it right.
What would I do?
I would contact each person who has a deposit and tell them that there is
no practical way to get their knife to them in a timely manner. I would offer them a few options on how to rectify it.
Option A) I will refund your $25 or whatever the deposit amount.
Option B) I will apply your deposit against a production version of the
knife you ordered at a wholesale price (Not the retail)
Option C) I will hold your deposit against making your knife and let you know that it will be much longer than I thought. Maybe 5 years.
I bet (Side bets taken) that most would opt for the B option and this would alleviate nearly half or more of his back log. Once they read option C, and the brick hits the floor, they will look very hard at the other 2 options.
Finally, NO MORE DAMN LOTTERIES! This is a slap in the face to
anyone who has ever placed an order with him. I know that if I was at a show and saw a
knife that I had ordered years previous and saw that it was up for an auction, that someone who had never even ordered a knife could get, I would personally be EXTREMELY PISSED OFF!
So Ernie if you read this STOP THAT CRAP! Or at least explain why you do it in a way that would not insult either of our intelligences.
This is what he should be doing right NOW. Anymore ignoring the obvious problem and he will just simply create such a bad atmosphere that no one will want to breath the stale air.
Now with that said I will not close this thread, Les can if he wants but I
doubt he will and Ernie if you are out there and read this PLEASE respond as I will never, ever call you again myself. See ya at the Blade Show Ernie (Booth 85).
1-800-969-7771
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Mike,
Your right, I will not close the thread.
Poor planning on Emerson's part does not excuse his lack of integrity and his poor (non-exsistant) customer service. As is evidenced by his lack of response to you.
Just a side note here. Hadnt thought of it in a long time. About two years ago I told a customer of mine how bought 3 Emerson knives from me. He asked me if I thought the knives would go up in value. In response to his question I told him I had heard that Emerson was going to cut back on his custom knives and focus on factory knives. He became upset with this as he had 4 knives on order (no he has not received his). So he called Emerson. The next day I received a call from Emerson wanting to know where, how and from whom did I get this information.
In retrospect it was obvious that my information was 100% accurate.
Also, some more information. This month marks the three year anniversary of the famous phone call. I answered the phone and heard "is this Les Robertson" I replied yes, the next thing I heard was "this is Ernie Emerson, the next time I see you Im going to KICK YOUR ASS". I laughed, explained to him in detail about Felony convictions and Civil Law suits. Then asked him "how does get through a door way with his head as big as it is". He was upset because I was spreading lies such as, he doesnt deliver his knives on time and his actual delivery time is not a year its more like 2 years. He also accused me of telling people he was working on a knife fighting video with Gun Site. He said that was a lie, he would never work with that sorry group of individuals. I apologized for that (acutually I thought that was pretty cool that he was going to do that).
The conversation ended with him telling me, ok Ill sell you my knives. When I saw him at the Blade Show in 96. I went up to his table and said we need to talk. I said are you going to sell me the knives or not. He said not. I said then their is nothing to talk about. So I gave 5 of my customers money and they went and bought the knives that I was going to get.
Also, note that Emerson is very prone to threats of physical Violence. In addition to me, he has threatened Kit Carson and Allen Elishewitz. Mike, please feel free to check out this with these individuals.
While I give Emerson a large portion of the credit for bringing the tactical folder to the forefront of custom knives. He was not the first.
Kit Carson, Bob Terzuola and Pat Crawford were doing it years before him.
He did not invent the tanto, his knives were inspired by the work of Phil Harstfield. He was not the first to do titanium bolster, his liner lock was a Michael Walker design. His clip was from Spyderco. He did create the buzz though. Helped in large part by the books written by Dick Marchinko.
By the way in Dick's new book why doesnt he carry Emerson Knives anymore. Mike if you do talk to Emerson ask him about that one. After all Dick never left home without his beloved CQC6. Which by the way I think will become a military knife classic.
So as you say Mike, success has made Emerson famous and infamous all at the same time. Seems like its time for him to hire a business manager.
Make sure you get there at 12:00 noon on Friday the 12th at the Blade Show to get in on that lottery. Down side is, you have to have an exhibitor badge or a VIP pass to get in on the picking of the numbers.
Oh well at least those of you who have been waiting for years can be there at 2PM on Friday when he hands your knife to someone who only had to wait two hours for it!
Can you belive it, people still order knives from him.
Mike, I have this character flaw, I think you have it as well. I blame my parents and the US Army for it. The flaw is called integrity.
Well Im off to the Bahama's for a week. Ill check back in on the 12th to see if the soap opera has changed any.
Mike on a personal note. I appreciate you not acting on your temptation to just end the thread. I also appreciate you letting the room know that you too have tried to get in touch with Emerson to no avail!
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Your right, I will not close the thread.
Poor planning on Emerson's part does not excuse his lack of integrity and his poor (non-exsistant) customer service. As is evidenced by his lack of response to you.
Just a side note here. Hadnt thought of it in a long time. About two years ago I told a customer of mine how bought 3 Emerson knives from me. He asked me if I thought the knives would go up in value. In response to his question I told him I had heard that Emerson was going to cut back on his custom knives and focus on factory knives. He became upset with this as he had 4 knives on order (no he has not received his). So he called Emerson. The next day I received a call from Emerson wanting to know where, how and from whom did I get this information.
In retrospect it was obvious that my information was 100% accurate.
Also, some more information. This month marks the three year anniversary of the famous phone call. I answered the phone and heard "is this Les Robertson" I replied yes, the next thing I heard was "this is Ernie Emerson, the next time I see you Im going to KICK YOUR ASS". I laughed, explained to him in detail about Felony convictions and Civil Law suits. Then asked him "how does get through a door way with his head as big as it is". He was upset because I was spreading lies such as, he doesnt deliver his knives on time and his actual delivery time is not a year its more like 2 years. He also accused me of telling people he was working on a knife fighting video with Gun Site. He said that was a lie, he would never work with that sorry group of individuals. I apologized for that (acutually I thought that was pretty cool that he was going to do that).
The conversation ended with him telling me, ok Ill sell you my knives. When I saw him at the Blade Show in 96. I went up to his table and said we need to talk. I said are you going to sell me the knives or not. He said not. I said then their is nothing to talk about. So I gave 5 of my customers money and they went and bought the knives that I was going to get.
Also, note that Emerson is very prone to threats of physical Violence. In addition to me, he has threatened Kit Carson and Allen Elishewitz. Mike, please feel free to check out this with these individuals.
While I give Emerson a large portion of the credit for bringing the tactical folder to the forefront of custom knives. He was not the first.
Kit Carson, Bob Terzuola and Pat Crawford were doing it years before him.
He did not invent the tanto, his knives were inspired by the work of Phil Harstfield. He was not the first to do titanium bolster, his liner lock was a Michael Walker design. His clip was from Spyderco. He did create the buzz though. Helped in large part by the books written by Dick Marchinko.
By the way in Dick's new book why doesnt he carry Emerson Knives anymore. Mike if you do talk to Emerson ask him about that one. After all Dick never left home without his beloved CQC6. Which by the way I think will become a military knife classic.
So as you say Mike, success has made Emerson famous and infamous all at the same time. Seems like its time for him to hire a business manager.
Make sure you get there at 12:00 noon on Friday the 12th at the Blade Show to get in on that lottery. Down side is, you have to have an exhibitor badge or a VIP pass to get in on the picking of the numbers.
Oh well at least those of you who have been waiting for years can be there at 2PM on Friday when he hands your knife to someone who only had to wait two hours for it!
Can you belive it, people still order knives from him.
Mike, I have this character flaw, I think you have it as well. I blame my parents and the US Army for it. The flaw is called integrity.
Well Im off to the Bahama's for a week. Ill check back in on the 12th to see if the soap opera has changed any.
Mike on a personal note. I appreciate you not acting on your temptation to just end the thread. I also appreciate you letting the room know that you too have tried to get in touch with Emerson to no avail!
------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
dano
Gold Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 1,626
This is somewhat amusing, and also somewhat sad...From what I've seen and heard from others, people want an "Emerson" not for the design (there are a lot of other customs with better quality and design) but for the name...The main questions that I see as problematic (and maybe even point to fraudulent activity) are: If he is this backlogged, why is he still taking orders? and If he doesn't have time to fulfill customer's orders, that he took a deposit for, how does he find the time to make customs for the various shows he attends?
Assuming that he has a large ego, maybe he's afraid to stop taking orders; he doesn't want his repuatation damaged.
To me, the CQC/Emerson hype has become some sort of quasi religion....Also, controversy always seems to find Emerson...I remember a very big rumor which stated that his then new Raven series wasn't even being made at his new shop, but instead was subcontracted out to another knife company (some say it was timberline, others said Cammilus)...
Oh well, I dont want an Emerson, prefering to save my hard earned pennies for a Terzuola, or maybe a Crawford....
--dan
------------------
The blacksmith and the artist reflect it in their art...They forge their creativity closer to the heart...
Assuming that he has a large ego, maybe he's afraid to stop taking orders; he doesn't want his repuatation damaged.
To me, the CQC/Emerson hype has become some sort of quasi religion....Also, controversy always seems to find Emerson...I remember a very big rumor which stated that his then new Raven series wasn't even being made at his new shop, but instead was subcontracted out to another knife company (some say it was timberline, others said Cammilus)...
Oh well, I dont want an Emerson, prefering to save my hard earned pennies for a Terzuola, or maybe a Crawford....
--dan
------------------
The blacksmith and the artist reflect it in their art...They forge their creativity closer to the heart...
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
Well it appears as though a lot of dirty laundry is being aired in here. I think we should allow time for this thread to make it's way to Ernie before we add any more fuel for the fire which is apparently burning his ass. I will email the entire thread to him now.
Each time I have met Ernie he has been nothing short of a gentleman. Since I have had no direct business dealings with him I can not pass judgement.
There is obviously a problem that he needs to address. How he handles it from here is up to him. He may choose to ignore it.
I have received emails telling me that I should not allow this to happen on my forum. Well I may own this forum, but the members decide what stays or goes. So if you all want to see this thread stay simply say so. Those who want to see it locked say so and those who want to see it deleted say so.
My personal view on this is that in the acquiring of knowledge you must sift through a lot of garbage to find that holy grail. This thread airs a lot of garbage which for the average consumer means nothing but for those who may be thinking about buying an Emerson it could be just the info they are looking for. Either way it is your decision.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Each time I have met Ernie he has been nothing short of a gentleman. Since I have had no direct business dealings with him I can not pass judgement.
There is obviously a problem that he needs to address. How he handles it from here is up to him. He may choose to ignore it.
I have received emails telling me that I should not allow this to happen on my forum. Well I may own this forum, but the members decide what stays or goes. So if you all want to see this thread stay simply say so. Those who want to see it locked say so and those who want to see it deleted say so.
My personal view on this is that in the acquiring of knowledge you must sift through a lot of garbage to find that holy grail. This thread airs a lot of garbage which for the average consumer means nothing but for those who may be thinking about buying an Emerson it could be just the info they are looking for. Either way it is your decision.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
definitely keep this thread open! one of the great things about this forum is that it can bring to light some problems. to close this thread would be like telling all the people who have had a problem with mr. emerson to "take a hike". how does this help them resolve the situation of not getting their knives? it doesn't. this forum does work both ways. it can work for mr. emerson if he decides to answer all of the questions. i sometimes think that nobody wants to complain, because mr. emerson has done a lot for the knife community. i appreciate all that he has done, but i can't believe that people have had knives on order for so long, yet he sells them to people at knife shows!! thanks to les for pushing this issue so persistantly.
marco
marco
Even though Spark asked Les to refer people to his earlier posts, he continues to ramble on. The insinuation was that Les is upset with Emerson, and has a personal vendetta going. I have been wondering about that, as never once did Les say he had deposits on order, etc. He did say that Emerson refused to sell him custom knives at the '96 Blade Show. Is that why you're mad, Les? You also stated you were dealing with Emerson before Spark even knew who Emerson was. Is that true, and if so, why did you stop buying from him?
Regarding so-called lotteries and the Knifemakers Guild by-laws, makers such as Ron Lake have appeared at the Guild Show with maybe three knives on their table. Collectors would place their business card under a knife of their choice. At a specific time Ron would shuffle the cards and draw one. That person got that knife. Is that wrong when he's probably back-ordered for five years? No, because the Guild requires its members to attend so many shows, and these people have to appear, so they make knives for those shows. Another maker I know is back ordered for years (Hartsfield). He told me he makes maybe five or six knives for back orders, and one for a show, etc. He attends a few shows a year, and he brings a few knives with him. His customers know in advance he makes show knives, as such. There are a number of makers who make a few knives for shows, and the rest for back orders.
RKnight says the "two sides to every story" argument insulting. Why? Like posted above, is Les mad because Emerson won't sell him knives, or because he hasn't filled his personal orders.
I've personally seen knife dealers at shows where a specific maker is selling. Potential collectors seeking a knife from a specific maker couldn't get one from the maker, and then approached the dealer, to discover the dealer was asking maybe $100 more for a custom knife than the maker was. When asked why he's (the dealer) charging more, after getting the knife at a discount, the customer was told to pay his price, or wait in line for a couple of years, or more.
Dano states he's heard that Emerson is having the Raven made by Timberline or Camillus. Emerson designed the Timberline fixed blade SpecWar, and Vaughn Neeley (formerly of Timberline) made the knife. Later Gatco bought out Timberline and is making the FIXED blade SpecWar. Emerson's plant is making and delivering the Raven folders.
Knives Illustrated featured an article on the CQC6 six years ago, in the Summer of '93. Nine years ago Emerson wrote an article for KI (Spring '90) on the Liner Lock system, and quoted Michael Walker, who came up with the "modern" liner lock design. Emerson has always given Michael Walker credit for his use of the Liner Lock design in his (Emerson's knives), and when he began using the chisel point blades that Phill Hartsfield made popular, if I'm not mistaken, discussed this issue with Phill, so people wouldn't think he was ripping of Phill's "designs."
Like a lot of us have said, there are two sides to every story, and everyone must ask themselves why some people batter someone else, as if they have a lot of immunity, especially if they themselves haven't been taken advantage of.
In closing, I mentioned on April 2nd that Emerson was beginning to produce his custom folders again, working maybe 4-5-6 hours a day. He has a lot of components already cut and ready for grinding and finishing, etc. He's setting up a brand new shop (using all of his custom shop equipment- that's old) next to his factory. I'm just reporting what I have observed, and what I was informed of by Emerson. I do wonder of all the people complaining about any knife maker, how many actually have knives on order from them. Les also mentioned even I can't get one of Emerson's custom knives. As I explained earlier, I have one custom I bought years ago. I have a couple of Ravens. I would like to have one of his new custom tacticals, but I don't expect him to show partiality. I'll wait until he's caught up, then I'll buy one.
Regarding so-called lotteries and the Knifemakers Guild by-laws, makers such as Ron Lake have appeared at the Guild Show with maybe three knives on their table. Collectors would place their business card under a knife of their choice. At a specific time Ron would shuffle the cards and draw one. That person got that knife. Is that wrong when he's probably back-ordered for five years? No, because the Guild requires its members to attend so many shows, and these people have to appear, so they make knives for those shows. Another maker I know is back ordered for years (Hartsfield). He told me he makes maybe five or six knives for back orders, and one for a show, etc. He attends a few shows a year, and he brings a few knives with him. His customers know in advance he makes show knives, as such. There are a number of makers who make a few knives for shows, and the rest for back orders.
RKnight says the "two sides to every story" argument insulting. Why? Like posted above, is Les mad because Emerson won't sell him knives, or because he hasn't filled his personal orders.
I've personally seen knife dealers at shows where a specific maker is selling. Potential collectors seeking a knife from a specific maker couldn't get one from the maker, and then approached the dealer, to discover the dealer was asking maybe $100 more for a custom knife than the maker was. When asked why he's (the dealer) charging more, after getting the knife at a discount, the customer was told to pay his price, or wait in line for a couple of years, or more.
Dano states he's heard that Emerson is having the Raven made by Timberline or Camillus. Emerson designed the Timberline fixed blade SpecWar, and Vaughn Neeley (formerly of Timberline) made the knife. Later Gatco bought out Timberline and is making the FIXED blade SpecWar. Emerson's plant is making and delivering the Raven folders.
Knives Illustrated featured an article on the CQC6 six years ago, in the Summer of '93. Nine years ago Emerson wrote an article for KI (Spring '90) on the Liner Lock system, and quoted Michael Walker, who came up with the "modern" liner lock design. Emerson has always given Michael Walker credit for his use of the Liner Lock design in his (Emerson's knives), and when he began using the chisel point blades that Phill Hartsfield made popular, if I'm not mistaken, discussed this issue with Phill, so people wouldn't think he was ripping of Phill's "designs."
Like a lot of us have said, there are two sides to every story, and everyone must ask themselves why some people batter someone else, as if they have a lot of immunity, especially if they themselves haven't been taken advantage of.
In closing, I mentioned on April 2nd that Emerson was beginning to produce his custom folders again, working maybe 4-5-6 hours a day. He has a lot of components already cut and ready for grinding and finishing, etc. He's setting up a brand new shop (using all of his custom shop equipment- that's old) next to his factory. I'm just reporting what I have observed, and what I was informed of by Emerson. I do wonder of all the people complaining about any knife maker, how many actually have knives on order from them. Les also mentioned even I can't get one of Emerson's custom knives. As I explained earlier, I have one custom I bought years ago. I have a couple of Ravens. I would like to have one of his new custom tacticals, but I don't expect him to show partiality. I'll wait until he's caught up, then I'll buy one.
dano
Gold Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 1,626
Wow...this thread is running the fine line of self destruction....Anyways, I re-iterate that the Raven/Timberline connection was a rumore, and if Bud's seen the manufacturing, then I have no reason to doubt....As Bud and I had a heated debate a few years back about the Ravens on the Rec.knives newsgroup...But I don't care about that....I would like to see a response on all this, but also realize that whatever Mr Emerson says, it will never satisfy all of his critics....
--dan
--dan
i imagine that if mr. emerson just told each and every one of the people who have custom orders with him, APPROXIMATELY when they should get their knives, most people would be satisfied. waiting 5-6 yrs. for a knife that was promised in 3, is totally unnacceptable, but i think that most would be happy with any sort of answer at this point. i think that the biggest problem is his lack of communication with his customers. this shows a lack of respect for them. mr. lang, do you know why mr. emerson has not explained to all of his customers when they will get their knives?
marco
marco
- Joined
- Oct 12, 1998
- Messages
- 1,647
With all due respect, Bud, I believe some of us here would, or already do, have a problem with knives being lotteried at shows. I don't know the math here, so I'll claim ignorance of the actual practice, but by your post, if a maker has to attend three or four shows a year, and they make three or four knives for each show, that's anywhere from nine to sixteen knives that could be going to customers who may have been waiting two or three years, maybe more, for one of those knives. To see things from some of our viewpoint, pretend you're not Mr. Lang, knife expert, writer, editor, and someone familiar with the goings-on of the Guild, but Joe Schmoe knife enthusiast. You've been eagerly waiting for years for that special custom knife. Having a rare opportunity, you attend a custom knife show, maybe two or three states away, hoping to meet the man that is making that custom knife you've waited so long for, only to find that maker selling or giving away a knife, YOUR KNIFE (!) to some guy that hung around a knife show for a couple of hours. Wouldn't that tick you off, even a little bit? I know I'd be pretty peeved, to say the least, and it sounds like not many on this forum would be open to this practice either. Seems to me that a knife maker's obligation should be to his customers, and more to those who have been waiting the longest, and not just those select members of some collector's clique who can afford the time and money it takes to attend the myriad of custom shows. Perhaps the Guild, as ambassadors or emissaries of custom knifemaking, need to carefully consider the regular customer and enthusiast, as more of an integral part of the future of custom bladesmithing.
Maybe I'm just too naive about the custom knife business, but I'd like to think that an ethical custom maker, especially with a backlog of two or three years or more, should tell his table visitors, "This is a knife that I just finished for a customer, and I brought it as an example of my work. If you'd like to order one, my current backlog is XX, and I'd be glad to put your name on a waiting list if you want." I want to believe that such bladesmiths exist, and they are the rule, not the exception, but all I have now are a couple of examples of the opposite. Can someone clear this up for me?
Maybe I'm just too naive about the custom knife business, but I'd like to think that an ethical custom maker, especially with a backlog of two or three years or more, should tell his table visitors, "This is a knife that I just finished for a customer, and I brought it as an example of my work. If you'd like to order one, my current backlog is XX, and I'd be glad to put your name on a waiting list if you want." I want to believe that such bladesmiths exist, and they are the rule, not the exception, but all I have now are a couple of examples of the opposite. Can someone clear this up for me?
- Joined
- Oct 6, 1998
- Messages
- 159
Bud,
I think the difference with Hartsfield and probably the others that you mentioned is that they may have a 2 year backlog, but they are delivering product as promised.
People waiting 5+ years for something that was promised within 2 years is unreasonable. Taking additional custom orders when you are so backlogged doesn't seem to be a very responsible business practice. Not contacting your customers who have pending orders with an apology is not acceptable.
You subscribe to a magazine that promises to have an issue every month. The issue never comes. Calls to the publisher get promises of the next issue coming out soon. Meanwhile people elsewhere seem to be getting their issues, some getting them the same day they subscribe. You keep getting put off longer.
Is this acceptable business practice?
Please also explain how other knife makers doing this sort of thing make it more any more acceptable?
--Doug
[This message has been edited by Doug Mason (edited 05 April 1999).]
I think the difference with Hartsfield and probably the others that you mentioned is that they may have a 2 year backlog, but they are delivering product as promised.
People waiting 5+ years for something that was promised within 2 years is unreasonable. Taking additional custom orders when you are so backlogged doesn't seem to be a very responsible business practice. Not contacting your customers who have pending orders with an apology is not acceptable.
You subscribe to a magazine that promises to have an issue every month. The issue never comes. Calls to the publisher get promises of the next issue coming out soon. Meanwhile people elsewhere seem to be getting their issues, some getting them the same day they subscribe. You keep getting put off longer.
Is this acceptable business practice?
Please also explain how other knife makers doing this sort of thing make it more any more acceptable?
--Doug
[This message has been edited by Doug Mason (edited 05 April 1999).]
The really funny point with waiting periods like that is, that after all this years the knife you are getting is probably technologically obsolete and more a piece for collectors than users.
A couple of years ago, titanium framed linerlocks with ATS-34 were all the rage. But the evolution doesn't stop. Better steels and designs are developed permanently. I bet in a couple of years, the average Spyderco for sub $100 is better than that overprised Emerson folder everybody has been waiting for so long. I consider the Spydie Military already superior to the CQCs. The steel is superior, the handle more ergonomic and the blade grind and form actually functional. Besides that it's available and at a fraction of the cost for the chisel piece. Oh, I see, you want something carried by SEALs and Spec Warriors. Well, then of course, since those guys know so much about knives...
A couple of years ago, titanium framed linerlocks with ATS-34 were all the rage. But the evolution doesn't stop. Better steels and designs are developed permanently. I bet in a couple of years, the average Spyderco for sub $100 is better than that overprised Emerson folder everybody has been waiting for so long. I consider the Spydie Military already superior to the CQCs. The steel is superior, the handle more ergonomic and the blade grind and form actually functional. Besides that it's available and at a fraction of the cost for the chisel piece. Oh, I see, you want something carried by SEALs and Spec Warriors. Well, then of course, since those guys know so much about knives...
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