Endura 4 Lock Failure

Thank you for the test Vivi.
It's almost the Spyderco version of now infamous Noss CRK tests. But no feeling of any Spyderco people will be hurt as Spyderco has never portrayed its products as survival-level tough tools.
 
Not surprising, IMO. Every tool has its limits, and from what I know about ZDP-189 I wouldn't expect extreme strength/toughness.

Vivi said:
What do people do thats tougher on an edge than batoning through wood that they want that kind of an edge?
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All kinds of things, from cutting heavy wire to cutting things on hard surfaces including metal. When batoning the edge is initially wedged into the wood and so is supported from both sides, which protects it greatly from the forces and shock being applied. And of course it wasn't the edge that failed here.
 
I don't think that ZDP is the best steel for impact toughness. You may want to PM Sal. He may want the knife just to examine it.

That last hit on the video looks almost like a love tap though. Was the lock partially disengaged when you hit it?
 
From the sound in the video it broke within the first 4 or 5 seconds of the vid. You even hesitated for a sec. when the metal snapped the second time. Further downward pressure jammed it enough to hold it together. The last upward tap released the pressure on the broken, jammed parts IMO.
 
roughedges said:
Thats the way I was taught to do it and the only safe and responsible way I've ever heard it explained. Knife locks may or may not stand up to repeated sharp and heavy spine impact but they are certainly not designed for it.
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This is something that makes me laugh actually, because the lowly UK Pen Knife actually does really well with batoning because you don't have a lock to worry about, mainly just the blade / pivot junction and going easy on the thin tip. Maybe they should market it as an extreme survival knife :D

[youtube]yDdk0IJYXyQ&feature=channel_page[/youtube]
 
tomcrx said:
Was the lock partially disengaged when you hit it?
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Locked throughout the entire vid.

Dog of War said:
All kinds of things, from cutting heavy wire to cutting things on hard surfaces including metal. When batoning the edge is initially wedged into the wood and so is supported from both sides, which protects it greatly from the forces and shock being applied. And of course it wasn't the edge that failed here.
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What do you define heavy wire as? I ask because previous to this test I cut CAT5 cable with this same knife and the edge was unharmed. I had planned to try coax cable later but knew that would be doing some damage. But is that something people you know typically cut? I want to know what sort of harsh materials people actually cut, because I want to continue testing my thin edges versus thick ones in the belief that my results will confirm what I've been saying for years.

For example, look at the measured difference in force needed to comlete a task, a task that either blade was more than durable enough for...

Cables: Each knife will be used to push cut through CAT5 networking cable. The ZDP189 knife took 38-43 pounds of force to do this and the VG10 knife made it through twice with a 75 pound push and failed to make it through on 3 attempts using up to 100 pounds pressure. I did not feel safe using heavier pressure than this so did not attempt to finish the cuts. The performance of the VG10 knife was surprisingly poor to me initially, but 2 to 3 times less efficient than the ZDP189 profile should put it in the up to 120 pounds of force range so I suppose I shouldn't of been surprised, seeing as the ZDP189 blade seems to be outperforming the VG10 in cutting efficiency by 200-300%. Each edge was inspected for damage. Visually they were fine, running my fingernail along the edge they each felt slightly rough in the area used to cut the CAT5, but did not feel damaged significantly. Both edges looked fine under 60x magnification.
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SOLEIL said:
From the sound in the video it broke within the first 4 or 5 seconds of the vid. You even hesitated for a sec. when the metal snapped the second time. Further downward pressure jammed it enough to hold it together. The last upward tap released the pressure on the broken, jammed parts IMO.
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I don't think so. That was the sound of the wood and steel sticking to each other and being rubbed against one another. I also vigorously jerk the knife around later in the video before it breaks and the lock functions as it should. There was no hesitation in that video due to concerns of the knife being broken until the end where you see the handle flop around.
 
OK. Wood on metal rarely makes a metallic snapping noise. The second time it snaps you hesitate, perhaps unconsciously or preparing to baton more. Then you baton it some more. Now it is cracked/jammed together, which can be a very strong bond. During the vigorous shaking it makes no further noise. Had the initial sound been wood on metal it should have continued making noise. The upward taps are at the location of the break. The second tap is enough to jar it loose. It would not have failed so easily had it not already been cracked or broken. Broken or fractured components can appear to be normal until force is applied to the right spot to make them fail completely. This is a very common occurrence. ZDP is great stuff with great cutting abilities. It is not made for twisting, prying or hammering on. But it is the owners prerogative to use their tools as they see fit. It also satisfies others curiosity as to far their tools may go before failure. Have fun and keep bashing stuff:).
 
The steel/heattreat in this knife is designed to be very hard to hold a good edge for a long time. In the world of knife steels, that means it will not be a very good steel for impact resistance, flexing etc. This knife wasn't meant to be batoned, and I would expect it to break. The fact it broke at the lock, means you have good batoning technique :)
 
Vivi said:
What do you define heavy wire as? I ask because previous to this test I cut CAT5 cable with this same knife and the edge was unharmed. I had planned to try coax cable later but knew that would be doing some damage. But is that something people you know typically cut? I want to know what sort of harsh materials people actually cut, because I want to continue testing my thin edges versus thick ones in the belief that my results will confirm what I've been saying for years.
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Understand, this isn't something I personally do (well, I've done a few tests is all) ... but I'm talking about stuff like Romex, the 14 ga. or larger copper wire used to wire homes and buildings, as well as coax, even soft steel wire. The problem mostly lies in lateral force on the edge, if an effort is made to cut straight into and through some of these things damage can be minimal, but in real world use many don't bother with being so careful.

People do things with knives that surprise me. But then, who am I to judge?
 
Vivi said:
I know you're just joking around, but just so everyone is aware for future reference....

This wasn't intentional at all, this was meant to test the edge not the lock. I've done this before and the other Endura I did this with today worked fine for it. If I ever baton something out of necessity I use a large kuhkuri, not a folder. This was not representative of what I typically use my Enduras for.
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Oh I understand that this is not normal use. I suggest that you reconsider how well this tests edge retention as opposed to other materials......if you don't batton he correct way. Whenever battoning with a folder you should disengage the lock first.

I tried something similar with my Pac. Salt and had no lock problems when I used the correct technique. Look at it this way: Now you can't batton with that folder incorrectly! :D
 
Dog of War said:
Understand, this isn't something I personally do (well, I've done a few tests is all) ... but I'm talking about stuff like Romex, the 14 ga. or larger copper wire used to wire homes and buildings, as well as coax, even soft steel wire. The problem mostly lies in lateral force on the edge, if an effort is made to cut straight into and through some of these things damage can be minimal, but in real world use many don't bother with being so careful.

People do things with knives that surprise me. But then, who am I to judge?
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I disagree on this I have used CS Voyagers and Enduras to cut through Romex and extension cords. I used it just like you cut line, i.e. loop the wire and pull cut through the loop. I have not had any damage on the knives. I have also used both to cut through asphalt shingle, aluminum and vinyl flashing with no issues. Many times I have trimmed these materials like you would whittle a stick. This puts tremendous lateral force on the edge and had nary a problem except an occasional rolled edge. You are in fact cutting material that is significantly softer the hardened cutlery steel and should not pose a huge problem.

Batoning is much tougher due to the fact you are generating way more impact forces on the lock then can be generated by just cutting.

It would be neat to send the knife to Sal and see what he says may have caused the failure
 
Hi Vivi,

If it was the lock that broke, it wasn't the ZDP, unless the hardness of the ZDP tang somehow transferred the energy and snapped the lock. The lock isn't made from ZDP.

I would like to see the knife. I'll trade you for an Aqua Salt for it and you can hammer on it.

sal
 
Kind of off topic but when you look at the blade tang where it broke, you can see the brittle ductile transition of the fracture. It is kind of like you did your own Charpy test on Spyderco's ZDP-189. You can't get results from it but it is just neat.
 
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