Endura 4 Lock Failure

[Lycosa]

It makes more sense, actually.
Does blatant knife abuse make sense??

 

[hardheart]

So how do you test the edge for impacts without impacting the knife.

 

[65535]

So how do you test the edge for impacts without impacting the knife.

You use a fixed blade made out of a semi malleable steel. Seriously since when was a folder ever designed to be used like a fixed blade in the abuse department. Maybe the Extreme Ratio RAO could be considered. Seriously though, even in Noss4's tests where he wantonly abuses fine knives how many break or fail in any way during the parts of his "tests" doing things that you would actually do with your knife.

 

[Vivi]

How does an uncontrolled test, testing a function for which the knife is not designed of course, offer any real help except to say, "folders are not the best tool for batoning"? Something that most of us already realize.

Vivi- You don't test a knife edge by stressing the locking mechanism. Try cutting stuff. Cardboard and hemp or manilla rope are both reasonably abrasive and uniform, good for testing the steel on a folder's edge.

The test was in regards to the edge, not batoning ability. An axe or more appropriate tool wouldn't of added anything to the test unless I was measuring and recording the wear resistance of whatever steel my Fiskars hatchet uses. I know that in my personal collection alone I can find 15 items more suited to the job. That's not the point though. This thread, video and test were supposed to have nothing to do with the knife's batoning ability and all to do with how the edges each held up.

Also I want to mention again I've done this before many times. Off the top of my head I've batoned my Byrd Cara Cara, Opinel 10, some SAKs, a Military, Manix, two other Endura 4's and one Endura 3, UKPK, Kershaw Leek, Buck Hartsook, Native etc. This is the first and only time I've ever seen a knife fail doing this.

I planned to do more controlled edge retention testing after I had done the durability portion. It was going to be done similar to Vasilli's manilla rope testing except I use cardboard as my test medium.

Also for anyone who's forgotten, I did a lot of testing with the two Endura's on how I use them in the real world, if that's what you'd rather read about. I think the article was turning out good. http://metalx.org/raum/Articles/e4comparison.html

I'm going to continue the testing with a Delica 4 in ZDP189 with a T.K. flat grind.

I really like what Vivi is doing in practically demonstrating that thin edge profiles are more robust then the normal knife user has imagined.

Thanks. The evidence has always been there, I'm just working to document it. I'm going to continue using the scale to measure blade profile efficiency. One thing I'll start doing is measuring the knife going through various materials before and after reprofiling too.

Most people don't seem to understand how thin you can take knife edge's, but it seems like few have tried to figure this out. You have to go extremely thin on most quality steels to see problems during what most would consider typical use.

I mean, think about this. A lot of people here don't use their knives for anything more than rope, string, mail and cardboard. Cardboard....hmmm...boxcutters? Yep. Look at their geometry, then tell me how many boxcutter blades you've seen chip out and fail on cardboard.

I've had a lot of face to face discussions with different folks about edges. It usually goes something like "Wow you really sharpen down your knives," "Yeah the cut very well that way," "Yeah but doing that also makes the edges weaker," "Well I've tested this particular edge by whittling hardwood, cutting CAT5, batoning and chopping through wood, slicing a beer can, doing full force stabs into plywood, slicing cardboard and doing food prep. It might be weaker, but not to the point where I've seen any failure."

There is a big gray zone between the black and white, factory edge vs. an edge so thin it's going to fail during any use. Especially when you use microbevels. Just look at some of the geometries I EDC: http://metalx.org/raum/gallery.html The only thing thicker edges have done for me is wear my arm out more quickly. Another thing to consider is safety. If you're holding a box in one hand and a knife in the other, getting the cut started with an 8 pound push is much safer than a 20 pound push to start the cut.

It's common knowledge that sharper edges are safer because they require less effort to cut. I'd like to see this common sense approach extended to geometries and ergonomics. The thinner the geometry, the less effort required, increasing safety and decreasing the users required effort. Ergonomics that place the index finger as close to the cutting edge as possible increase leverage advantage, thus also reducing the force you need to exert when cutting, which makes things even safer.

Go take a look at my UKPK or Calypso Jr ZDP189 in the gallery, and imagine using that extremely thin, hair whittling sharp edge with a handle design that gets you a fraction of an inch from the cutting edge. Cutting is so effortless with this compared to your average knife that I don't understand why people wouldn't want it. If I want an arm workout I lift weights, I don't cut cardboard. I really don't get why these edges aren't more popular after reading what kinds of cutting people here do. I feel like I'm having to explain to a car afi why an Enzo would be a fun ride.

[youtube]ZevWView_qA[/youtube]

 

[roughedges]

So how do you test the edge for impacts without impacting the knife.

Impacting the edge via cutting of one's hard material of choice instead of by wailing on the spine in an obviously uncontrolled fashion. Or even by chiseling it through said hard material using light and controlled blows to the spine of the blade. A hard whack to the spine will test the lock and lock/tang engagement as seen in Vivi's video. So, I'll continue to submit that batoning a folding blade is not a reasonable way to test an edge. Nor is it a particularly reasonable way to use a folder, absent true survival conditions. Further, these tests have the unfortunate drawback of seeming to lead newer and less informed knife afficianados into the ill founded- and potentially dangerous- belief that a folding knife should be able to withstand such treatment.

Some will, most of the time. With proper technique, some models might even withstand it all the time . However, it never should be assumed that any folding knife will definitely survive use as a wood splitter. Under such use, the force placed on the pivot and upon the locking mechanism are far too extreme for assumption of positive outcome to be anything but foolhardy. This especially holds true with many of the newer boutique stainless steels.

 

[roughedges]

The test was in regards to the edge, not batoning ability.

That's good. If it had been a test of batoning ability you would have failed! How did the edge hold up?

An axe or more appropriate tool wouldn't of added anything to the test unless I was measuring and recording the wear resistance of whatever steel my Fiskars hatchet uses. I know that in my personal collection alone I can find 15 items more suited to the job.

Perhaps it would have added nothing to this particular test but at least then you would have been testing a tool within its intended usage range instead of attempting to test the edge under conditions that could be politely termed "extreme usage". Extreme usage can be fun I guess, and it is surely good entertainment for those watching, but its not a real good way to isolate a variable.

Also for anyone who's forgotten, I did a lot of testing with the two Endura's on how I use them in the real world, if that's what you'd rather read about. I think the article was turning out good.

I'll check it out. I do think you have the potential to be a lot better at this than many of our regular reviewers here.

I feel like I'm having to explain to a car afi why an Enzo would be a fun ride.

If feeling that way makes you feel good, do your thing man and, to contiue the analogy, never mind if that car aficionado quietly listening to your explanation knows a thing or two about Ferraris and still prefers the Porsche.

 

[Vivi]

That's good. If it had been a test of batoning ability you would have failed! How did the edge hold up?

Perfectly.

Perhaps it would have added nothing to this particular test but at least then you would have been testing a tool within its intended usage range instead of attempting to test the edge under conditions that could be politely termed "extreme usage". Extreme usage can be fun I guess, and it is surely good entertainment for those watching, but its not a real good way to isolate a variable.

Which is why I was going to do more controlled testing later. But I disagree about testing the knife past it's intended use. It passed all the real world based tests, so it was necessary to take it further to see when and how it would fail, which was one thing I was looking for. However, as things stand, I think the work done so far speaks highly of the reground edge considering it hasn't failed in any way so far.

If feeling that way makes you feel good, do your thing man and, to contiue the analogy, never mind if that car aficionado quietly listening to your explanation knows a thing or two about Ferraris and still prefers the Porsche.

Bad analogy on my part. I don't mean a ferrari is the best car for every person or job, but it would strike me as odd if someone who was into cars didn't appreciate one. In the way it seems backwards to me for me or another to discuss thin edges and have people on here be so opposed to them. It's one thing if you use your knives in a way that requires a thick edge and you've tested where you need your edge to be. But I have made multiple threads on what people cut and what they consider "hard use" for their knives and I've gone out and tested my regrinds doing these things. They hold up fine. I have youtube videos of me batoning and chopping with them, and written info of me cutting metal, wire etc.

I guess a better analogy might be, would you buy a car and not adjust the seat once you got in? Would you leave it how the manufacturer left it, because "they know best" or "It's good enough?" Or would you adjust it to your needs and specifications so that it was optimized for you and your uses?

 

[roughedges]

Which is why I was going to do more controlled testing later. But I disagree about testing the knife past it's intended use. It passed all the real world based tests, so it was necessary to take it further to see when and how it would fail, which was one thing I was looking for. However, as things stand, I think the work done so far speaks highly of the reground edge considering it hasn't failed in any way so far.

I admit, it does. Thinly profiled like that, its impressive that ZDP189 held up as well as it did. How durable are you finding your reprofiled edges to be Vivi? One of the reasons I leave my knives close to factory is because I prefer to get by with cloth and leather stropping for months at a time in between sharpening jobs.


Regarding how it failed, I'm guessing that you'll find that the point of breakage matches up with the rear, handleside, edge of where the lockbar meets up with the tang. When batoning, thats the spot where all blade and handle side forces are focused and magnified significantly.

I guess a better analogy might be, would you buy a car and not adjust the seat once you got in? Would you leave it how the manufacturer left it, because "they know best" or "It's good enough?" Or would you adjust it to your needs and specifications so that it was optimized for you and your uses?

Of course I'd adjust it. But part of buying a car is also doing proper research up front so that one can purchase a vehicle that is as close to optimal as budget and other constraints allow. That being said, I have (slightly) reprofiled every knife I've ever bought within a week or so of purchase.

 

[hardheart]

You use a fixed blade made out of a semi malleable steel.

Vivi was comparing VG10 to ZDP-189. If there is a ZDP fixed blade, that could work. He would also need that model in VG10 to continue his work. And as far as malleable steel - that of course has no place in his testing, he was specifically testing steel and grind of a particular type. And to what end? To see how far you can go before you need a thicker edge... or a 'semi malleable steel.' As Vivi said, the edge itself hasn't failed him yet.

 

[Lycosa]

Vivi---Your blades are Sssharp, surfer!!

 

[enderwiggin]

you've got to love spyderco
great people behind the company

That's what I was thinking! Who else would not only want to take a look at the knife to see what happened--knowing it was complete abuse--and offer to send a replacement knife for the same kind of testing?

Sal Glesser is the man.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

My comment is more towards what Sal thinks might cause the lock failure (despite the abuse), whether it's the hardness, design or microfracture (pre-existing). This will lead to better design, QC, etc.

That's how one improves the quality ..

 

[Phil Elmore]

Gross knife abuse is a not a "test." The term "test" implies both some scientific method and some reasonable context. Abusing a knife to the point of failure involves neither.

I give Sal Glesser a LOT of credit for being patient enough even to entertain a discussion of one of his products that has been treated in this way.

 

[JAB]

My comment is more towards what Sal thinks might cause the lock failure (despite the abuse), whether it's the hardness, design or microfracture (pre-existing). This will lead to better design, QC, etc.

That's how one improves the quality ..

You are implying that the lock may have "failed" due to a materials or manufacturing defect. The reality is that any folding knife will eventually break if you beat on it with a log long enough.

I've owned and used many Spydercos over the years and have the utmost confidence in their quality as well as their ability to get the job done if used properly. I don't think that a broken knife that has obviously been subjected to gross abuse needs to be analyzed in order to "improve quality".

 

[tomcrx]

Vivi never denied that his testing broke the knife, nor did he ever try to blame Spyderco. This statement makes that clear.

Regardless, I wouldn't of been too surprised if it broke during the batoning. It's not something I'd expect any folder to survive indefinitely. What caught me off guard was breaking the lock on an upwards handle hit.

I'm not really concerned with terminology. I have a broken knife and I'm not 100% sure why it's broken, would be cool if I could find out somehow. Not gonna say what I did to it had nothing to do with it "failing" though.

*sigh* this was supposed to be an edge durability test, not a lock test.

Second he never asked Spyderco to replace it or try to have it replaced under warranty, Sal offered that himself.

I think that people don't realize that there are some hobbyists that truly are curious about knife design. They do backyard testing to satisfy this curiosity. They are not slamming the manufacturer or trying to get a free knife.

 

[emperorwang]

i'm not surprised it broke. i don't think the knife was intended for that type of use at all.

 

[dante]

Gross knife abuse is a not a "test." The term "test" implies both some scientific method and some reasonable context. Abusing a knife to the point of failure involves neither.

I give Sal Glesser a LOT of credit for being patient enough even to entertain a discussion of one of his products that has been treated in this way.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Gross knife abuse is a not a "test." The term "test" implies both some scientific method and some reasonable context. Abusing a knife to the point of failure involves neither.

I give Sal Glesser a LOT of credit for being patient enough even to entertain a discussion of one of his products that has been treated in this way.

Thanx Phil,

But I must say that we break them regularly. We use a purpose built machine that graphs the break.

And besides, now he has to buy a new one.

sal

 

[shunsui]

A christmas gift idea for the little geniuses who need to split wood and destroy knives. One end splits wood, one end hammers knives into submission.

http://www.amazon.com/ESTWING-E3-FF...bbs_sr_12?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1230198270&sr=8-12

 

[hannibal lecter spyderco]

I know that others will disagree, but I do not believe that a folder like an Endura should be expected to survive that kind of abuse.

So saying that the lock "failed" is IMO somewhat inaccurate. Might be better to say that you broke it.

JMO.

Agreed, the endura is a great knife and its on the small and light size folder for the task that its being asked to do in the video. One of the other things that we should keep in mind is that folders are essentially broken fixed blade knives.