Endura / Delica - update - need input

Hello Sal,

Major:

I would really like to be able to adjust the tension on the pivot like on the Fallkniven U2.
That would be great.

Minor:
Blade: Full flat grind ?
Handle Choil like on the Dodo and the Paramillie. Or the handle of the rescue junior !!!

cheers

JM



:D :D
 
Sal Glesser said:
I noticed there was not much mention of steel liners???

Steven, I ws surprized to hear you say that no changes were really needed. Weren't you pitching me on the Griptillian recently ;)

What I need is for you to be saying, "the Grip is a good knife, but I have to admit the Delica is better" :) .


What do we need to do to make that happen? :p

sal
Click to expand...

That is strange. I've never once thought the Endura needed liners.

As far as the Griptilan versus the Delica though, I think that's completely a matter of personal preferences. For instance I can tell you my father will never own a Delica or Endura because he is addicted to thumb studs and abhors holes. He also thinks they're too weird looking.

Some people just can't stand the thought of tip up carry.

Some people hate stainless steel or FRN handles.

That's all very superficial reasoning but I would bet you $2 that's the main reason people pass on the Endura/Delica sometimes. And it's nothing you can help.

By contrast that same kind of superficial reasoning is why I like a lot of Spyderco models over their competition. So you lose some you win some.
 
Hi Grover, we had 12 things to change/improve. By the time you guys are finished, I'll have more (or less).

I really can't say anything here, yet, the competition also watches ;) .

When we do get down to a final, I'll share.

I do really apprecite all of the comments. Well thought out information by owners that have used the models.

I have had he thought to make two variations. I was leaning towards the "radical new design". My son, Eric convinced me tht an update of the existing pattern would be better and if I wanted to go "radical new design", I should just create a new model. This opinion has been mentioned here as well, so I conceded.

However, as variation; with a full flat grind, one of the new super locks, choil, etc. might be fun.

Joe, thanx for the comments. The "pickle" knife is looking very purpose designed as a "draw knife" at this time and I don't think I can do a design that does both well.

sal
 
Sal, the endura already works fantastically well as a pickle knife! It may not have been designed to do so, but it does. The only thing needed to make it a perfect low-cost pickle knife is a lock change.

I only brought that fact up because a lock change is also the only disadvantage of the endura versus the griptilian (which you specifically asked about). So, by changing the lock, you get two birds with one stone, and all that...

Of course, I also agree with Morgoth's criticism of my reply ... the endura is an awesome "total package" knife, and part of the total package is reasonably low price and very light weight. Really, I'm loathe to suggest changing anything that would mess with the winning formula. But I also love the idea of having a low-price endura pickle knife, to go with the high-end pickle knife when it comes out :)

Joe
 
Sal Glesser said:
I noticed there was not much mention of steel liners???

Steven, I ws surprized to hear you say that no changes were really needed. Weren't you pitching me on the Griptillian recently ;)

What I need is for you to be saying, "the Grip is a good knife, but I have to admit the Delica is better" :) .


What do we need to do to make that happen? :p

sal
Click to expand...

Sal, the Delica is already better than the Mini Grip in some respects. When I need my knife in a hurry I am generally wearing kevlar-lined leather working gloves or thick fire gloves. I need a knife that I can open and close quickly and safely while wearing these gloves. For me that knife is the Delica.
I carry a lot of "stuff" in my fire gear already and so I want a knife that is light and compact. Once again the Delica fits the bill.
I also need my knife to have few moving parts and to be easy to clean after I've sliced into a smouldering mattress and got the knife full of crud. Delica again!
The Delica and Endura are great tools.
THEY WORK

I am a big fan of the drop point Griptilians however. I think that the 556 is a better looking knife than the Delica, and the Benchmade fit and finish is top notch.
Those phosphor bronze washers and axis lock make it silky-smooth and I like being able to adjust the pivot tightness. The blade locks up with a lot less "wiggle" than my Delicas.
The belly of the blade is nice for tasks such as food prep - have you tried spreading butter with a Delica? :)
I like the relatively weighty feel that the liners give the Grip too. In the hand it feels like a better knife than the Delica - but that doesn't necessarily mean it is...
 
I think the blades on the Endura and Delica are just fine the way they are--it's the handles that need an upgrade.

Like dual steel liners for the FRN (and adjustable pivot) or G-10 handles with a single steel liner (like my G-10 Police).

I'll also have to disagree with Joe on the Griptilian 551 vs Endura.
As they stand right now, the Griptilian wins hands down.

Blade design= draw
Blade steel= draw
Lock= 551
Handle comfort=551
Overall strength of construction=551
Clip placement and design=551
Opening mechanism=draw
Available options=551

Allen.
 
Take some of the features of the Rescue 93mm, choil, larger hump and hole, stainless pocket clip, and blue FRN. As for a blade, a full flat grind like the Military or a Ronin style wharncliffe.
 
Sal, the reason for "no liners" is that it would be just another thick knife. As Joe mentioned, the thinness and large size of the Endura make it a winner and pretty unique, even amongst higher cost knives. That is one reason I would take it over the Griptillian.

I am partial to the "R", which was one of the cooler designs ever to come out of Spyderco, IMHO, especially would be a good user if made with a non-laser cut blade.

The only FRN knife that I will carry is the Calypso Jr. The "fish scale" texturing is the only texture that seems to transform the cheap, plasticky character of FRN and provide a great grip. I don't know about others, but it is the cheap feel of the FRN that keeps me away from some perfectly good models.

I also happen to be fond of the "clipit" mark on the center of the Calypso scales, like you had on the old Walker FRN models.

I happen to agree with Eric - make the "radical" design into a new model and let the old war horses keep churning out the profits. Slap on some new paint, put a spoiler on the back, create a new winner, and retire the old models if the new one can win hearts.
 
I take it a compression lock would increase the price point appreciably? If not, that would improve an already-reliable lock, plus add a liner. But probably not worth it if it raises the price point. It might also be "too unfamiliar" for the general ELU.

RE handles: Perhaps it would be possible to redesign the mold to create more rounded, contoured scales instead of the "classic" boxier design? Also, would it be possible to mold a sandy texture into the FRN? Finally, perhaps better quality FRN is being produced now, with higher glass content to stiffen without becoming brittle? I think a harder, stronger FRN would be immediately noticeable in-hand. Chris Reeve apparently worked with Crucible in producing S30V; would Spyderco be able to work with a company to produce a better FRN? Doing so, then renaming it something other than FRN, Zytel, "plastic" could change user perceptions of the material's qualities -- among general users and knifeknuts. Maybe call it "tempered glass," "superglass," "glass composite," or something similar. (Trust me, we'll fall for it .) :)

RE full flat grind: I doubt we'll see it -- Sal, in the past, has noted that it doesn't appeal visually to the general (non-knifeknut) user, while the sabre-grind does. This is main reason, IIRC, that the Calypso Jr -- directly superior to the Delica from a performance standpoint -- didn't fly with the general public. FWIW, I think the Endura/Delica's edge grind is very versatile and easy to maintain.

Only two blade changes I could see would be 1) to add traction grooves behind the Spydie hole. And 2) to beef up the tip a little on the Endura by slightly modifying the tip grind, perhaps convexing it if that can be done without raising the price point? (It would be a significant improvement that appears minor; and folks just won't pay more for a "minor" upgrade.) Doing so would certainly enhance the Endura's "workhorse" status. Of course, leave the Delica tip as-is; a fine working tip is the whole point of going with a modified clip pt. instead of a drop pt., after all. Any blade style is a compromise, and everyone accepts that.

In other words: keep the blade the same (mostly or completely), and work on redesigning the handles. :) In any case, I think the Endura/Delica line rocks -- a classic design, for sure.

2¢ --
Glen
 
allenC said:
I'll also have to disagree with Joe on the Griptilian 551 vs Endura.
As they stand right now, the Griptilian wins hands down.

Blade design= draw
Blade steel= draw
Lock= 551
Handle comfort=551
Overall strength of construction=551
Clip placement and design=551
Opening mechanism=draw
Available options=551
Click to expand...

You brought up some good points that made me think more. First, I'd forgotten that the Grip could be had with D-2 steel ... worse yet, I forgot it had a hole!

The most important think you left off your list, though, is carryability. The endura disappears in your pocket, the delica even more so. The Griptilian is rather clunky to carry, IMO -- payback for the more substantial handle -- and that makes it a knife in a different class, for me. Which got me thinking about why I don't own a Griptilian at all, but have several enduras. When I want an extremely carryable knife, I carry an endura, it's lightweight, the handles are thin, and blade-to-handle ratio is good, all leading to a very easily-carried knife. If I'm going to go with a knife that isn't so easy to carry, why go to another FRN-handled knife (like the grip)? Why not just jump to a Military or BM 710? Grip is a great knife, just not a niche I need covered, personally.

Making the endura's and delica's handles much thicker, and increasing weight substantially, takes these knives out of the niche that made them so useful in the first place -- reasonably-priced, easily-carried, high-quality beaters. Maybe no "improvements" should be made to the endura that would sacrifice any of those qualities. Instead, how 'bout an Endura Xtreme, a VG-10-bladed endura with compression lock and g-10 handle scales, which leapfrogs the Griptilian and competes with the bigger boys? Based on carryability it outdoes the AFCK and Military, and the cleaner blade shape gives it a leg up on the 710 ...

Probably gone off the deep end at this point ...

Joe
 
ElectricZombie said:
A full flat grind like the Military and tip up and tip down carry options would be nice. Traction ridges for thumb placement would be great. Other than that, I think the Delica and Endura are fine as is.
Click to expand...
What he said.
 
I have a Delica and Mini-Grip 556 in front of me as I type this and I already think the Delica is a superior knife as is. However, there are a few things that could be improved on the Delica/Endura to make it an even clearer winner.

The Griptilian opens much smoother out of the box than the Delica. I've been working on my Delica for a while now trying to smooth it out and it still doesn't open as smoothly as the Griptilian did brand new. I don't know much would have to be changed to make the Delica open as smoothly. My Calypso Jr. however was much smoother brand new than my Delica. Also, an adjustable pivot wouldn't hurt.

I don't have a problem with the current clip setup and am not in favor of going to a wire clip. However, many people seem to complain about the barrel screw so if you went to a 4 position 3 screw clip you'd have the Griptilian beat in that department.

I don't really see a need for steel liners as that would make the Delica thicker and just how much stronger would that make the knife? FRN already appears to be quite strong without a liner.

The Delica's handle feels much better to me than the Griptilian's. I really would not like to see a choil added to the Delica/Endura. I would rather see the handle modified to have more a blade guard.
 
After looking at all the different Spyderco models from their website I'd like to change my comment about a choil for the new Delica/Endura. What I meant to say is that I would not like to see a choil like the one on the Calypso Jr. that allows your finger to easily slip onto the blade. However, the choil on the Dodo is much deeper and looks like it would do a good job of preventing your finger from slipping onto the blade and also puts your index finger close to the blade for cutting jobs that require this. If that type of choil could be incorporated into the new Delica/Endura I would be in favor of it. If not I would like the Delica/Endura handle to remain fairly similar to how it is now but have a larger hump in the front to prevent finger slippage. Just my $.02 on the subject.
 
Well, my only true beef with the Endura/Delicas was how the clip could twist in the recess, hollowing out the sides, making it harder and harder to keep the clip oriented as time goes by. If you don't change the clip design alltogether, then the recess needs to be... reinforced so the the clip won't spin... know what I mean?

TY!
Bill :)
 
Talking about the delica/endura vs the Griptilian, I have a grip but don't use it.

It's just too thick vs the delica, and the delica's blade is just more useful to me, except for spreading butter(as some forumite suggested) which needs a big belly and rounded tip.

Also, on my grip, the steel liners, which are nested into the FRN have slight movement.

The only thing the grip has over the delica is that it opens smooth and you can flick it open more easily, sans thumb. The D cannot be flicked opened by wrist power easily, it needs thumb power all the time.

The handle of the D is not only much thinner and thus more carryable, it also sticks better in my hand.

In short, the D beats the G in almost every aspect, and I would pick a D over a G everytime.

As a low cost, reliable and safe folder, the D has NO equal.

Please do not change it too much, esp not the handle shape, for goodness' sake, I cannot even picture how you could put a choil, or even worse, a guard on it.

To me, the D and E are like the folding version of those guardless swedish pukkos, just reliable, low cost, safe, working knives.
 
Not trying to change the subject, but...

Mr. Glesser describes the "pickle" knife as being a "draw knife".

What's a "draw knife"? :o
 
SYK,
The Delica cannot really be compared to the Griptilian.

The Mini-Griptilian is much more comparable:
It's just barely thicker than the Delica and can be had in two different blade designs (a drop-point with studs or a modified sheepsfoot with the oval hole).

As for the movement of the steel liner--send it back to Benchmade. They should not move since they're held in place by two screws and the main blade pivot screw.

And I'm not saying that the Endura and Delica are bad knives, but Sal did ask for improvement suggestions.
Steel or titanium liners would make the knives much stronger and would not add that much bulk or weight.
My G-10 Police has a full-length single steel liner and G-10 scales and it still weighs less than the Military. And it does'nt appear thicker either.

Plastic handle lockbacks are not exactly hard to find. What sets Spyderco apart from the rest are mainly the blade-steel and the thumbhole.
But I think Spyderco should really distance themselves from the herd by changing ALL of their FRN handles to G-10, Carbon Fiber, or aluminum.

Allen.
 
allenC said:
Plastic handle lockbacks are not exactly hard to find. What sets Spyderco apart from the rest are mainly the blade-steel and the thumbhole.
But I think Spyderco should really distance themselves from the herd by changing ALL of their FRN handles to G-10, Carbon Fiber, or aluminum.
Click to expand...

Well, let's get the order right ... Plastic handle lockbacks are not hard to find, because Spyderco created an enormous market for them and everyone else followed. Spyderco wasn't the first -- I think Gerber was, with the LST -- but the delica and endura really made this market. Your point remains valid, there are other choices in FRN handles, but to me, delica/endura remain the best, and Spyderco sales seem to prove this out.

Having come to my senses, I think I'm back to being dead set against anything that would kill the delica/endura's current value proposition: moderate price, ultra lightweight, thin and very carryable. That's the winning formula. If Spyderco is going to mess with the delica and endura, I'd prefer marginal improvements to (say) the handle and clip.

The idea I love better is not the replacement of endura/delica value proposition as it exists, but the option of a higher-end version. Take Allen's idea of G10 over metal liners, replace the lockback with a compression lock, and make it otherwise identical to the endura. That's a knife that I would not only buy, but I'd have to think hard about whether it would replace my BM 710. For this type of niche, I haven't bought a Military because of the enormous handle (and I'm not a liner lock fan), plus I like the endura's blade shape better. And the Police's handle is not as secure as the endura's, plus it's a lockback.

I jokingly called this the Endura Extreme, and to me it would kick butt, do so without destroying the current FRN Endura's wonderful market, and allow Spyderco to leverage all the Endura's design and R&D investment into the high end market. Plus, all those folks who religiously love their enduras (me included) will just HAVE TO HAVE ONE. This is a standard good business move: come out with a kick-butt low-end product as a "starter kit", get the customer hungry for more, then give 'em an option of moving into high quality at a higher price point, leveraging the previous R&D and customer loyalty towards the low-end product.

Joe
 
Good ideas Joe. Offer a higher end Endura/Delica with G-10/ Carbon Fiber and give it either a Ball or Compression Lock.
 
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