EP evaluation thread for Knifenut1013

[Jason B.]

Unfortunately, the result is that we never did get clear answers from Knifnut to some questions raised by the original poster.

From the first page

If you have true interest email me

 

[Broos]

I am with the freehand advocates - after I learned to sharpen freehand, especially after I got some good stones and nice strops, I never used my jig systems again. I suspect it would be pretty funny (or at the least be a loooong boring video) to watch someone try to sharpen a Jungle Honey with a jig type sharpener.

 

[Infi-del]

I just don't see all the fuss. I especially don't see how you get the extension cord all the way out in the boonies to use your electrical device to sharpen your blade. You need to be able to sharpen with a stone out there. It worked for hundreds of years.

I prefer free hand sharpening to jig aided kits. I find them heavy a clumbsy in the field. Couple sheets of sand paper and a strop is all I need in the field to maintain a razor edge for weeks if need be. It's a lot less trouble and weight than carrying around a lansky or Edge Pro. Even though my EP came with a bag. It's really only portable. Not very packable.

 

[Ben Dover]

I am with the freehand advocates - after I learned to sharpen freehand, especially after I got some good stones and nice strops, I never used my jig systems again.

The point is, most systems, including freehand, work well once you learn them.

I've seen enough very well sharpened freehand knives to know that some folks can learn to do it. Personally, I like the Edge-Pro. Others like power tools. I suppose, that given enough practice, one could learn to use any method more or less effectively.

What frustrates me most with the "freehanders" is their arrogance, (most of them, not all by any means) and their attidude that "real" knifeknuts freehand only, and they look down their noses at anyone who uses any other system.

Michealangelo once said that sculpting was easy. You just take a piece of marble and chisel away anything that doesn't look like what you want to create. Perhaps there are other people who can do this. But just as not everyone could carve a "David" or a "Pieta" from marble, many cannot learn to "freehand" or use power equipment as effectively as some other system.

Most of us that are serious sharpeners have tried all, or almost all, systems and settled on the one we're most comfortable and slilled with.

So long as the end result is the same, what difference (other than snob appeal) does it make which system you used???

 

[cziv]

Why do you think that hand sharpening has snob appeal? Your previous remarks were spot on though! As long as everyone's happy with their technique and equipment - who cares?

 

[dsmegst]

Why do you think that hand sharpening has snob appeal? Your previous remarks were spot on though! As long as everyone's happy with their technique and equipment - who cares?

Perhaps snob appeal is not the right term. It's pride. I think when you master the freehand sharpening, you can be proud of the edge you created.

My father sharpened knives freehand on cheap benchstones all his life. Then I showed him a knife I reprofiled and polished on my paper wheels in about 3 minutes. It had a sharper, cleaner, and more polished edge then he ever did (he's not a knifeknut, so shaving sharp was enough for him). I think I hurt his pride a bit.

I certainly didn't mean to, but that's how it turned out. He knows I can sharpen better than he can in far less time. But he's never asked me to sharpen his knives for him.

On the flip side, I can't freehand to save my life. That's why I spent the money on a Sharpmaker and later on the paper wheels. But I still would like to learn to freehand. I have complete respect of anyone that can create such an edge by hand without the crutch of whatever system others happen to use.

I would be a lot more proud of a good edge I created freehand than of the scary sharp edge I got using the paper wheels. But I also wouldn't redo my knives by hand.

 

[stitchawl]

The point is, most systems, including freehand, work well once you learn them.

A 'truism!' :thumbup:

Most of us that are serious sharpeners have tried all, or almost all, systems and settled on the one we're most comfortable and skilled with.

Can I change this just a bit? Make it 'the ONES we are most comfortable with,' rather than the 'one.' I'm a firm believer in the 'full toolbox' concept.

I don't think I would be happy only using one method to sharpen all my edges. While the EdgePro 'can' sharpen everything perfectly, it's a bother to use it to touch up an edge. The Sharpmaker is perfect for a quick touch up, but I wouldn't want to carry it backpacking. The DMT Aligner is great to carry backpacking but I wouldn't want to try to re-profile the edge of a machete with it. Free-hand sharpening is the lightest weight of all, but it takes a long time and a lot of care and concentration to maintain perfect bevels on a large knife with the newer, harder steels. I enjoy free-handing when I wish to sharpen a warncliff blade for chip carving.

It's having the right tools for the job, and knowing how to use them well, that makes me the happiest. I've used every sharpening method (with the exception of a Tormek) and I've discovered the ONES that work for me. And as you say....

So long as the end result is the same, what difference (other than snob appeal) does it make which system you used???

Stitchawl

 

[db]

I wasn't going to junp into this but it doesn't take a long time to sharpen free hand. No system gives a perfect bevel, it is even reported in this thread by a EP user that there is a degree of difference between EP stones if warn and the slop in the system makes up for the difference. Another point is a perfectly held angle isn't required to gget a even polished bevel. Heck you could even choose to convex your edge and you can have a very even and nice bevel that looks perfect. Just today I reground and sharpened a 7 and 6 inch boning knife annd 2 4 inch paring knives in less time than it took me to get out my stones set up and clean when done. Free hand is fast and easy. And yes I am one of those guys who thought free hand sharpening was something I just didn't have the skill to do. I used a system for many years and thought I'd never be able to sharpen without the system. Once I got over the myth of angle control being the key to getting a sharp edge everything became much easier. Now I don't even think about holding an angle at all.

 

[theonew]

No system gives a perfect bevel, it is even reported in this thread by a EP user that there is a degree of difference between EP stones if warn and the slop in the system makes up for the difference.

Not only that, but as I just learned in this thread, when sharpening the curved portion of a blade you are essentially freehanding anyway using the EP.

I have to echo the sentiments of the freehanders in this thread. I'm not particularly adept with my hands but I learned to take a dull knife and freehand it shaving sharp in a couple of hours of practice. A couple more hours and I could get it hair-popping sharp and do it much faster. A little more practice and I could consistently get all my edges to whittle hair. It's just not that hard to learn.

At work yesterday I lent my Bark River Little Creek to a friend to open a box. He hit a staple and dulled 3/4 of the blade. No real edge damage but it was butter knife dull, couldn't even slice cut printer paper. Using a DMT extra-fine mini-sharp I keep in my desk, I raised my regular sharpening angle of 10 degrees per side a degree or two and was able to get it hair-popping sharp in a couple of minutes. When I got it home, a minute or two using an 8" X 3" DMT Coarse hone reset the bevel to 10 degrees per side, another minute on the other side of the hone, extra-fine, and another minute on a Spyderco ultra-fine bench stone and it was whittling hair effortlessly.

As as computer consultant, part of the beauty of knives to me is the simplicity of the tool and the last thing I want to do is muck that up with complicated sharpening systems. For the last two years all I've used for sharpening is a DMT Duosharp, coarse on one side and extra fine on the other and a Spyderco ultra-fine benchstone. For backpacking I bring a DMT EF mini-sharp which weighs 1/2 an ounce. On multi-day camping trips where my primary camp knife, a Bark River Aurora, loses a bit of its sharpness, I can bring the edge back in a few minutes with the EF mini-sharp.

There really shouldn't be any snob appeal to freehand sharpening since it just isn't very hard to learn. The hardest part of freehand sharpening is following the curve, something which you need to do anyway with both the Sharpmaker and the EP.

 

[stitchawl]

Not only that, but as I just learned in this thread, when sharpening the curved portion of a blade you are essentially freehanding anyway using the EP.

Could you explain a bit further, please. In what way are you freehanding with an EdgePro at ANY time? Having used mine for the past 12-15 years, I don't think I ever encountered this.

There really shouldn't be any snob appeal to freehand sharpening since it just isn't very hard to learn.

I agree with this statement 100%! It's not like brain surgery.

The hardest part of freehand sharpening is following the curve, something which you need to do anyway with both the Sharpmaker and the EP.

I have to take exception to this statement, though. Following the curve with an EdgePro is NOTHING like following the curve and trying to maintain the same angle when sharpening free hand. NOTHING! True, you do have to turn the knife on the base, but maintaining a constant angle is done for you with EdgePro. No effort involved.

With a Sharpmaker, you also turn the knife, and then have to be sure to keep your knife vertical while drawing it down the rods. More difficult than an EdgePro, but not much.

I'll state it once more; it's good to be able to sharpen with different tools rather than trying to make one tool work for everything. While using ony one tool can be done, there is no real reason to limit oneself.

Stitchawl

 

[cbwx34]

Well, in some ways this thread as evolved rather nicely. I still don't think it's a EP vs. freehand contest, but it does bring up good points on both sides, to maybe help someone decide which route to take.

... it is even reported in this thread by a EP user that there is a degree of difference between EP stones if warn and the slop in the system makes up for the difference.

I think that's a misinterpretation of what I said. Between a new stone and completely worn out stone there's a less than 1 deg. difference. In reality, the difference between stones in use is even less and there is enough "slop" if you want to call it that, to accomodate it. Accounting for less than 1 deg. is probably more accurate than what freehand sharpening would normally accomplish.

Not only that, but as I just learned in this thread, when sharpening the curved portion of a blade you are essentially freehanding anyway using the EP.

I'm not sure if that's from a statement I made, but that is not correct. You move the stone to accomodate the curve, but the angle is still controlled. Acutally a better way to say it is you just let the stone follow the curve of the blade... the user doesn't really have to control it. You also rotate the blade... but it still stays on the blade table. Depending on the blade shape and length, you can also leave it stationary.

Once I got over the myth of angle control being the key to getting a sharp edge everything became much easier. Now I don't even think about holding an angle at all.

If you mean holding a specific angle, I agree. But you still need to hold a consistent angle... even if it's in a 'range' and your edge comes out convex. But you're right, this can be done freehand, and is not the key to a sharp edge. What you said is actually a really good point.

cbw

 

[db]

Well, in some ways this thread as evolved rather nicely. I still don't think it's a EP vs. freehand contest, but it does bring up good points on both sides, to maybe help someone decide which route to take.

I'd agree this is a good thread with some good info on both sides. I'm not against anyone useing a system, in fact I think a system is a great way to learn how to sharpen and makes it much easier to learn what a sharp edge really can be. I'd never had learned how to free hand if it had not been for my Lansky system teaching me about sharpening along with these forums.

I think that's a misinterpretation of what I said. Between a new stone and completely worn out stone there's a less than 1 deg. difference. In reality, the difference between stones in use is even less and there is enough "slop" if you want to call it that, to accomodate it. Accounting for less than 1 deg. is probably more accurate than what freehand sharpening would normally accomplish.

Fair enough I knew I really wasn't wording that well. I think my point was made though. Holding a perfect angle for every stroke just isn't that important wile sharpening an edge. You can get a even and sharp edge without a perfectly held angle.

[/QUOTE]If you mean holding a specific angle, I agree. But you still need to hold a consistent angle... even if it's in a 'range' and your edge comes out convex. But you're right, this can be done freehand, and is not the key to a sharp edge. What you said is actually a really good point.

cbw[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I think alot of people think that the reason they cann't free hand sharpen is because they cann't hold an angle. That just isn't true. Even if you cann't keep within 5 degrees you can and will still get a killer sharp edge. How sharp has alot to do with finishing an edge. If you know how to finish on a system you can finish freehand too. As for speed in sharpening that has more to do with useing a proper coarse grit more so than anything else. I call the angle control a myth because it gets the blame for not getting an edge sharp way more than anything else. And in my opinion not doing enough work on a proper coarse hone is the real reason for most of the sharpening problems both for freehand and systems too. Would you agree by consistent angle we could say consistent within 10 degrees? I'm not sure I even want to put a number to the degree amount. But yes your going to have alot of work if you do one stroke at 80 degrees and the next at 5 degrees. You do need to be some what consistent.

 

[cziv]

Originally Posted by cbwx34
Well, in some ways this thread as evolved rather nicely. I still don't think it's a EP vs. freehand contest, but it does bring up good points on both sides, to maybe help someone decide which route to take.

How about a round of Kumbaya folks cj65

After 7 pages of this and in the interest of conserving BF's overworked servers - let's sing it cj65 - please! :yawn:

 

[cbwx34]

After 7 pages of this and in the interest of conserving BF's overworked servers - let's sing it cj65 - please! :yawn:

Why? I think it's developed, for the most part, into a meaninful discussion, with some relavant information. To me, forums are about learning. Is someone forcing you to read this? If you're bored, move on. But obviously there's some interest, and it's moved away from my faux pas, into what I think is a better discussion.

cbw

 

[cziv]

If you're bored, move on

Thanks, but I have a wife. I'll move where & when I choose to.

it's moved away from my faux pas, into what I think is a better discussion

:foot:

The only redeeming thing you've accomplished here. You called out KN in a very hardcore tone in this thread, even warning folks off at one point, that only he should be posting back. The rest has been you steering the thread back towards civility. There have been tons of sharpening system comparison threads. You just got a little too personal about your beloved edgepro. May it serve you well.

 

[cbwx34]

The only redeeming thing you've accomplished here. You called out KN in a very hardcore tone in this thread, even warning folks off at one point, that only he should be posting back. The rest has been you steering the thread back towards civility. There have been tons of sharpening system comparison threads. You just got a little too personal about your beloved edgepro. May it serve you well.

Um, I never warned any one off, in fact the opposite... I asked one person not to bring it back up.

If we only talked about something that's never been discussed before, then the forum would close right now. Obviously, lots of people have something to say.

And you missed the point entirely,,, this is not and has never been a defense or position about the "beloved EP".

cbw

 

[unit]

The only redeeming thing you've accomplished here. You called out KN in a very hardcore tone in this thread

Did I miss the public apology (in the same manner in which KN was called out)?

I have a lot of respect for what KN has contributed 'round here.

 

[cziv]

cbwx34,

Apparently you haven't re-read the first 5 / 6 pages of this thread again. You're correct though, in post #108 you did tell unit "that part of the thread is pretty much over, so please don't try and dredge it back up."

In post #116 unit replied "Wrong. Review the title of the thread. I did not dredge anything up...your title did."

unit, you didn't miss it. I don't think an apology was given.

I think we all make posts (I have anyway) that we wish we had back but what the heck, we're human right? I don't have any bad feelings toward you or anyone here. I'm still ready to sing the Kumbaya song on this one.

I only posted again because like any guy, I resent being told what to do!

 

[db]

I'm still ready to sing the Kumbaya song on this one.

I only posted again because like any guy, I resent being told what to do!

Then quit with the song reference... I just couldn't resist telling you what to do

 

[cbwx34]

You know what? You guys are right.

i've pretty much left knifenut out of this, because I thought the thread had moved away from it, and didn't want it to start again. I was wrong not to address this.

So, here it is:

I apologize for inappropriately calling Knifenut1013 out on this. Not only was it in bad form, it was simply wrong.

I apologize for the tone in my first post. In my mind I was trying to be a bit funny by being a little sarcastic. But, I let a friend of mine read the post. Her statement.... "if someone knew you they might understand. But if I read that post and didn't know you I would be pissed off."

I apologize for the tone I took when I didn't feel I was getting much of a response from Knifenut. I got a little frustrated. I agree that he has some good info, and honestly, that is what I wanted to hear. That is what was going thru my mind when I started this. That is why I asked him not to leave when he first said he was going to do so. And that is why I got irritated when the 'debate' didn't happen. I got irritated with his one line answers, and let it show. My bad, and he was right, I did nothing to contribute to any learning from him at that point.

It was never my intent to drag Knifenut down. If I had anticipated that ahead of time, I wouldn't have done it.

cbw

Edited to add: I have added a link to this post into the first post, so that it is not buried 7 pages back.