EP evaluation thread for Knifenut1013

[Infi-del]

One issue hasn't been addressed here to any extent.

If you properly maintain your edges, with regular stropping and/or steeling with a quality smooth rod (I like glass rods, myself) then the issue of coarse stones wearing out quickly is a non-issue.

Actually, I seldom use the stones on my EP at all on my better knives. I usually maintain them with the rod and strop, going to a mylar tape occassionally.

Once you've sharpened a quality, properly tempered steel like D-2, M-2 S30V, S90V, CPM M-4 etc to .25 micron, it's not very hard to maintain.

Even on my lower end knives, I seldom allow them to get so dull that I need to use a stone coarser than 600 grit.

This is true only under the case of knives that only need be maintained. Damaged edges and edges in need of reprofiling require coarse grits in order to keep from having to work on them forever. My apex coarse stone reprofiled about 3 knives and now it's bowed and virtually useless.

 

[stitchawl]

Should I be using an 11 degree angle to open my mail, or would a 12 degree angle be better? :jerkit:
(Note that I'm not asking to choose between 15 degree and 25 degree.)

How many people here can, when cutting, tell the difference between one or two degrees? Put your hands up... let's count.
I ask, because that is the difference between using a new EdgePro stone and one that is almost worn out. One degree.

Next question; how many people can freehand sharpen to a specific degree bevel? Not an approximation. A specific degree.

I don't think too many of us really care about a specific degree. We want a bevel that is 'about XX degrees.'
We know that if we are doing light work such as filleting a fish we want to use a smaller bevel than if we're going to be chopping firewood. We 'approximate' that bevel even if we are using an EdgePro. Sure, there are markings on the guide rod, or different slots on the Lansky or GATCO, and we use them.
How many people actually measured the results? Not take for granted based on the guide bar or the slot, but actually measured the results? And...
How many people really care about that one degree difference?
(Probably more people here in this discussion than proportionally exist even in this forum, but really... one degree? )

Stitchawl

 

[stitchawl]

My apex coarse stone reprofile about 3 knives and not it's bowed and virtually useless.

Why don't you just flatten it? I can get a lot more than three knives out of my 120 grit EdgePro stone. It only takes a couple of minutes to make it completely flat again, and good to go.

Stitchawl

 

[cbwx34]

I don't want to engage because of posts like this...... I'd rather not add fuel to the fire. Why teach when no one want's to learn.

I do want to learn, but since you already tried to cop out a couple of times already, and won't answer the question, saying, "I don't think I need to add anymore", at this point, I didn't expect you to respond anyway.

I really doubt you could support the view you presented, which is why you won't answer it. But if you care to provide something meaningful, I'd still like to read it.

unit, thanks. You're right, the EP isn't for everyone. It depends a llot on the time you want to invest learning, and I don't expect it to satisfy all sharpening needs. I even have multiple ways to sharpen, depending on what I need to get done, or sometimes, as you said, just for the enjoyment.

cziv, you're right 3500+ posts. And some have some good info. But he sure hasn't shown much in this thread.

I started this thread not as an EP endoresement, but because I thought that someone who seemed to know about sharpening had something against it, and quite frankly I was bugged because I could tell he never had used one. I would ask the same question if someone started posting misinformation about paper wheels, belt sanders, or anything else. So I asked. Maybe he knew something I didn't. I always try and keep an open mind. It's why I don't limit myself to just one way of doing things, especially in an area I want to learn about.

Instead of "many reason" he posts one problem that the EP didn't even create. He then complains and wants to leave the thread. Then he ignores. Then deflects. Then non-responsive. Then posts a statement that "perfect bevels wear and chip", based on one knife? (Doesn't the aligner you endorse do the same thing?)

But you're right knifenut, unless you have something meaninful to post, that I can actually evaluate, don't bother replying. It's not that I don't want to learn, but I think from you I've learned all I need to. If someone else would like to explain the "perfect bevels wear and chip" statement, I'd love to know why.

cbw

 

[rayban]

Then he ignores. Then deflects. Then non-responsive.

I wonder if he got tired of the pain in the ass nagging....

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

Come on, guys. Let's keep it civil. There will be no meaningful exchange of ideas or information if the tone of the thread remains confrontational.

 

[Infi-del]

Why don't you just flatten it? I can get a lot more than three knives out of my 120 grit EdgePro stone. It only takes a couple of minutes to make it completely flat again, and good to go.

Stitchawl

Because I don't use it anymore. When I got my belt grinder I chucked my Edgepro out in the tool shed. Why in the world would I want to spend all that time and effort when I get a far sharper edge in about a 10th of the time on my machine. If I had nothing to do with my time I might enjoy playing with it. But I simply don't have the time to play with a manual sharpening system. Plus I can sharpen a knife free hand. I bought it specifically for reprofiling edges, not maintaining them. I can do that by hand cause I actually know how to sharpen a knife. It's absurd to spend 200 bucks on an edge pro when for the same amount of money you can buy a Kalamazoo that will out perform it at every turn. Like I said the stones are nice. They cut well. But the system as a whole for the price it costs is a bit crazy when you compare it to other options out there.


I'm not bashing it's quality. It's made well. And when you compare it to Lansky or others like it. The Edge Pro is the best. That being said it's not worth the money I paid for it. I'd much rather have my grinder.

 

[dslteck]

SNIP

I started this thread not as an EP endoresement, but because I thought that someone who seemed to know about sharpening had something against it, and quite frankly I was bugged because I could tell he never had used one. SNIP
cbw

CBWX34.....Why start a whole thread and debate if you were "bugged" about KN Why not just e-mail him and correspond that way? Instead you decide to drag him through the mud? Pointless...but hey that is just my opinion and you know what they say about those.

 

[stitchawl]

Because I don't use it anymore. When I got my belt grinder I chucked my Edgepro out in the tool shed.

Ever consider selling it? There are plenty of folks who'd love a good deal on an EdgePro. Why not get your money out of it, rather than let is rot in the shed?

Stitchawl

 

[Jason B.]

I do want to learn, but since you already tried to cop out a couple of times already, and won't answer the question, saying, "I don't think I need to add anymore", at this point, I didn't expect you to respond anyway.

I really doubt you could support the view you presented, which is why you won't answer it. But if you care to provide something meaningful, I'd still like to read it.

unit, thanks. You're right, the EP isn't for everyone. It depends a llot on the time you want to invest learning, and I don't expect it to satisfy all sharpening needs. I even have multiple ways to sharpen, depending on what I need to get done, or sometimes, as you said, just for the enjoyment.

cziv, you're right 3500+ posts. And some have some good info. But he sure hasn't shown much in this thread.

I started this thread not as an EP endoresement, but because I thought that someone who seemed to know about sharpening had something against it, and quite frankly I was bugged because I could tell he never had used one. I would ask the same question if someone started posting misinformation about paper wheels, belt sanders, or anything else. So I asked. Maybe he knew something I didn't. I always try and keep an open mind. It's why I don't limit myself to just one way of doing things, especially in an area I want to learn about.

Instead of "many reason" he posts one problem that the EP didn't even create. He then complains and wants to leave the thread. Then he ignores. Then deflects. Then non-responsive. Then posts a statement that "perfect bevels wear and chip", based on one knife? (Doesn't the aligner you endorse do the same thing?)

But you're right knifenut, unless you have something meaninful to post, that I can actually evaluate, don't bother replying. It's not that I don't want to learn, but I think from you I've learned all I need to. If someone else would like to explain the "perfect bevels wear and chip" statement, I'd love to know why.

cbw

You want to learn? well your asking in the wrong way.

Take a wild guess why I'm not answering your questions.



You want me to give reasons? why so you can argue every one of them? That's never what this thread was about anyways, it was personal, MY NAME is in the title. Your efforts to bring negative attention upon me has failed and backfired, now I am truly out of this thread.

Thanks,
Jason

 

[stitchawl]

CBWX34.....Why start a whole thread and debate if you were "bugged" about KN Why not just e-mail him and correspond that way? Instead you decide to drag him through the mud?

I doubt the purpose of the thread was to 'drag him through the mud.'

I think his reason for starting the thread was to bring to light some 'facts' about EdgePro, rather than assumptions.

Knifenut is an expert knife sharpener who has helped a lot of people, both beginners just getting started, as well as intermediate sharpeners wishing to improve their skills. There is no question about this. Being an expert, many people will listen to what he has to say, and consider what he says as 'fact.' He does have many facts to share. But about EdgePro, he has assumptions. And correct or incorrect, people will listen and believe those assumptions.

It's good to have a thread where MANY different people who actually use EdgePros can share their experiences. 'Experiences,' not assumptions. As can be seen from the previous four pages, we all have a lot of differing experiences, both positive and negative. If we read 'between the lines' we can get even more valuable information about EdgePro, so people thinking about purchase can make an informed decision based on facts rather then on guess-work.

As knife sharpeners we all progress though our hobby, adding to our understanding as we go, and modifying our position on many things. We change. We learn. We grow. Sometimes we stumble. But then we get up and continue to grow. Continue to learn. Continue to improve. Some of us continue to change. Others don't feel any need to change. That's OK. No harm. No foul.

Stitchawl

 

[rayban]

I doubt the purpose of the thread was to 'drag him through the mud.'
l

Pleeeeeez....Stitch...you've forgotten more than I know about sharpening a knife....but I know when someone is calling another out....that's all this thread is about...you can coat it any way you want.

 

[cbwx34]

CBWX34.....Why start a whole thread and debate if you were "bugged" about KN Why not just e-mail him and correspond that way? Instead you decide to drag him through the mud? Pointless...but hey that is just my opinion and you know what they say about those.

Well, I dont' think I dragged him thru anything. I started it because I really thought maybe he had something legitimate to say about it. If you look back, you'll see he complained and wanted to leave before I even posted my first reply. When I replied (the 1st time) I still said I didn't get it, and tried to explain what I didn't understand. I didn't and still don't think I drug him thru the mud. Maybe putting his name in title made it too personal, but I did it to direct it to him, not as an "effort to bring negative attention". In another thread, he told me he wouldn't answer my questions so as not to derail the thread, so i created one he wouldn't have to worry abou derailing. That's all... no hidden agenda. If he had given me some legitimate reasons, that he stated he had, I would have been done a long time ago. But he never did. My feeling is, if someone makes statements in a forum, I see nothing wrong with asking for an explination in a forum.

Being an expert, many people will listen to what he has to say, and consider what he says as 'fact.' He does have many facts to share. But about EdgePro, he has assumptions. And correct or incorrect, people will listen and believe those assumptions.Stitchawl

That may be another way of saying it, or at least part of it.

You want me to give reasons? why so you can argue every one of them? That's never what this thread was about anyways, it was personal, MY NAME is in the title. Your efforts to bring negative attention upon me has failed and backfired, now I am truly out of this thread.

Well, like I said before, I didn't do it to bring negative attention, I did it to find out why. Maybe I missed some forum protocol by sticking your name in the title. If I did, for that I apologize.

cbw

 

[stitchawl]

Pleeeeeez....Stitch...you've forgotten more than I know about sharpening a knife....but I know when someone is calling another out....that's all this thread is about...you can coat it any way you want.

Should it have been toned down by both parties at the beginning?
Absolutely.
Was the original post simply an attack or was it a request for basis of a statement? I think it was made to ask for information, not to denigrate. Unfortunately it sounded more like a demand rather than a request. That's enough to get someone's hackles up.

But isn't there a difference between 'requesting factual backup' and 'dragging through the mud?' Yes, it got a bit heated between them. Understandable in any debate. The original poster wanted some basis for the statements that Knifenut made and wasn't getting them. Knifenut felt that was an attack upon his knowledge as an expert sharpener and reacted strongly. I can appreciate both points of view.

Unfortunately, the result is that we never did get clear answers from Knifnut to some questions raised by the original poster.

Stitchawl

 

[smflorkey]

When it comes to sharpening I will admit to being a "freehand nut"...

I envy your skill.

One thing which was not mentioned is that sharpening systems often cannot accommodate large knives. Since they work on an axis -don't they alter the edge geometry as they get further from said axis? I would think this becomes significant after about 4-5 inches of blade.

Well, yes, as the distance between the knife edge and the guide slot changes, the angle must change. Geometry cannot be ignored. The other side of that, though, is whether that change is better or worse than my freehand angle wobble. The reason I enjoy a DMT Aligner (for the moment) is that it lets my sorry, inexperienced hand produce an acceptable edge. Not a perfect edge; I don't understand metallurgy well enough to pick the best angles. And I seldom sharpen anything longer than 5 inches, usually 2.5 - 4 inches.

With a small DMT credit card sharpener (with extra fine grit glued to the back) and a small extra hard stone a skilled freehand sharpener can sharpen a very large knife, machete, and even an axe when he is in the field to razor sharpness. (Not to mention how easy it is with an 8" diamond stone at home.)

Like I said, I envy your skill which I clearly lack. On the other hand, departing a bit from the EdgePro discussion, my DMT Aligner is fairly portable so it often goes with me to make friends' abused and neglected knives happier.

If there was a sharpening system that could sharpen axes and machetes, it would probably be too large to carry anywhere (EDC).

Agreed. OTOH, I don't own any really good axes or machetes so a file is good enough, even in my hands.

So, if you are truly crazy about your edge, shouldn't freehand be the first and primary skill you want to have? I can see how it might alter your perfect geometric edge, but at least you will always stay sharp, no matter where you are or what size tool you have.

In my copious spare time, I'd love to sharpen freehand. I have a Norton triple hone with 10 inch stones in my garage, but my knives cut much better if I don't use it. I haven't yet found a way to practice enough to get good at freehand on blades that are worth the effort without trashing some pretty nice blades. I have found that softer steels just don't take and keep a worthwhile edge no matter how I do it. Until I can find a way (and lots of spare time) to practice freehand sharpening blades that will actually take an edge, I'll settle for my DMT Aligner. If I had an EdgePro I'd probably prefer it at home but the DMT is more affordable and more portable.

Not sure if that is way off topic...

There is some debate as to the actual topic, but I'll go for the question of whether an EdgePro is worth using. You stated your (strong) preference for freehand sharpening. With your skill, an EdgePro is not worth the investment -- for you.

I'm in a somewhat different camp, but my vote is for a more affordable tool with similar technology, the DMT Aligner. I've also used Lansky (many years ago) and find the Aligner more to my liking. Then again, the difference back when I had the Lansky may be the cheap knives I was trying to sharpen.

Thanks for expressing your experience and opinion so clearly.

 

[stitchawl]

One thing which was not mentioned is that sharpening systems often cannot accommodate large knives.

I think this point alone is what makes the EdgePro such a wonderful system. It CAN accommodate large knives. It can accommodate two-handed broad swords, should there be a need to sharpen a friend's.

All the other guide-rod systems necessitate the use of some sort of clamp to secure the blade and maintain the sharpening angles. (I happen to favor the DMT Aligner myself.) The size of this clamp does restrict the blade size that can be sharpened easily and accurately.

But with the EdgePro, the blade size is NOT restricted to what will fit into some clamp, nor does the user need to worry about keeping the edge 90° to the stone. The design is such that the blade just slides along the base as you go, with the stone arm always maintaining the same angles. No clamping. Everything from a tiny pen blade of a small SAK to a large machete or Claymore sword can be sharpened, keeping the bevels equal and sharp all along the edges.

It is good to keep in mind that just because I think the EdgePro is the finest sharpening system made, (which I do...) that there isn't room in my tool box for a DMT Aligner and a Sharpmaker. These all compliment freehanding, steeling, and stropping. It's not an 'either/or' situation.
I use what ever I need at the time for the situation.

Stitchawl

 

[hardheart]

How would you sharpen a double edged sword with a ~40 inch blade by yourself on an EP?

 

[cziv]

It is good to keep in mind that just because I think the EdgePro is the finest sharpening system made, (which I do...) that there isn't room in my tool box for a DMT Aligner and a Sharpmaker. These all compliment freehanding, steeling, and stropping. It's not an 'either/or' situation.
I use what ever I need at the time for the situation.

I think that's a great response to a pretty strange thread stitchawl!

 

[theonew]

I've never used an EP but from watching a few videos it seems to me that the bevel angle is constantly changing as you pivot the stone around on its anchor point. So if you were sharpening say an 8 inch cleaver wouldn't the tip and the base of the blade have a thinner edge bevel than the middle?

 

[stitchawl]

I've never used an EP but from watching a few videos it seems to me that the bevel angle is constantly changing as you pivot the stone around on its anchor point. So if you were sharpening say an 8 inch cleaver wouldn't the tip and the base of the blade have a thinner edge bevel than the middle?

Nope, but good question. As you note, if one were to sharpen further away from the pivot point the bevel would change. This is a drawback to most clamp systems. To avoid this happening you'd have to re-clamp every inch along the blade. But with the EdgePro, the blade is always free to be moved from tip to choil (or the other way if you prefer) so you can keep the stone always moving at exactly 90 degrees to the edge if you wish to be that precise. No need to pivot at all.

In reality, when sharpening most blades on an EdgePro you never allow the stone arm to sharpen off the base. At most there can be an inch or two of play either side of true 90 degrees. The resulting bevel probably wouldn't really be noticeably different on anything but a micro level. But if one desires a 'perfect' bevel, it's a simple matter just to keep the arm completely perpendicular to the edge while sharpening. Not difficult at all.

Stitchawl