ESEE 6 vs Bark RIver Fox River Magnum

[ozgooner]

I have a friend looking to buy an ESEE-6, and I was able to borrow one for him to look at a few days ago, and he was undecided on it. Then today I took delivery of a BRKT Fox River Magnum, which seems very much in the same class.

I'm interested in hearing from people who have used both these knives as to which they feel offers superior performance in a bushcraft/camp chores/'survival' situation.

Thanks

 

[Hawk45]

I've had both and still have the BRKT FRM. I prefer the blade shape and materials. The one knock is I wish the handle was a little longer, .5" would have made a big difference.

 

[1066vik]

I have an ESEE6 based on the reputations of the company owners, the lack of quality control complaints, and the way they stand behind their warranty on the rare chance it's needed. I have also met the owners and found them to be honorable folks.
based on similar criteria, I do not own any BRKT cutlery.

 

[MatthewSB]

BRKT costs twice as much, due to superior materials and semi-custom production. It's really a totally different class of knives, like comparing a Cold Steel SRK to a Chris Reeve Pacific.

I used to have a ton of ESEE knives, but sold every single one of them after using a Bark River Bravo 1. The lack of a coating was a big reason for the change, I can't stand cutting food with coated blades. I learned a bit about professional cooking, and pitting from rust on a chef's knife traps all sorts of nasty stuff on the blade. The coating makes me feel like I'm using a dirty blade.

BRKT puts a priority on ergonomics. Their handles are rounded and comfortable to use for hours. BRKT bases their grip on contour rather than texture, so the grip is the same wet or dry, dirty or clean. BRKT's micarta is also superior - it's polished smooth and not at all absorbant. ESEE's handles have squared edges, and their micarta is very absorbant and turns colors from absorbing sweat and who knows what else.

BRKT also uses a superior convex grind on their knives, which is super easy to keep shaving sharp with a strop or a piece of sandpaper. A2 is far superior to 1095 for a knife, and if you pay the extra $30 to step up to 3V you have incredibly tough steel.

Again, this isn't a knock on ESEE. It's amazing how open and accessable the owners are, and the warranty is amazing. ESEE makes good stuff, in their price range. For $100, you can't buy a better knife. The same can be said about BRKT though. Half the time when I've called, Mike Stewart is available to answer very technical questions. Their warranty is the same as ESEE - lifetime guarentee. For $200, you can't buy a better knife.

BRKT knives are better in every single possible way, but they cost twice as much. If your buddy can afford one, he should get one. Otherwise, the ESEE is a great knife...

 

[ridnovir]

BRKT costs twice as much, due to superior materials and semi-custom production. It's really a totally different class of knives, like comparing a Cold Steel SRK to a Chris Reeve Pacific.

I used to have a ton of ESEE knives, but sold every single one of them after using a Bark River Bravo 1. The lack of a coating was a big reason for the change, I can't stand cutting food with coated blades. I learned a bit about professional cooking, and pitting from rust on a chef's knife traps all sorts of nasty stuff on the blade. The coating makes me feel like I'm using a dirty blade.

BRKT puts a priority on ergonomics. Their handles are rounded and comfortable to use for hours. BRKT bases their grip on contour rather than texture, so the grip is the same wet or dry, dirty or clean. BRKT's micarta is also superior - it's polished smooth and not at all absorbant. ESEE's handles have squared edges, and their micarta is very absorbant and turns colors from absorbing sweat and who knows what else.

BRKT also uses a superior convex grind on their knives, which is super easy to keep shaving sharp with a strop or a piece of sandpaper. A2 is far superior to 1095 for a knife, and if you pay the extra $30 to step up to 3V you have incredibly tough steel.

Again, this isn't a knock on ESEE. It's amazing how open and accessable the owners are, and the warranty is amazing. ESEE makes good stuff, in their price range. For $100, you can't buy a better knife. The same can be said about BRKT though. Half the time when I've called, Mike Stewart is available to answer very technical questions. Their warranty is the same as ESEE - lifetime guarentee. For $200, you can't buy a better knife.

BRKT knives are better in every single possible way, but they cost twice as much. If your buddy can afford one, he should get one. Otherwise, the ESEE is a great knife...

Agree 100% I would take BRKT over ESSE (Survival knives that cannot throw sparks off fero road, will cause hot spots, inferior in cutting, slicing, chopping - what a joke). BTW BRKT has an excellent Life Time warranty for $15 (shipping cost) they will do any SPA treatment you can imagine.

 

[Big Mike]

Agree 100% I would take BRKT over ESSE (Survival knives that cannot throw sparks off fero road, will cause hot spots, inferior in cutting, slicing, chopping - what a joke). BTW BRKT has an excellent Life Time warranty for $15 (shipping cost) they will do any SPA treatment you can imagine.

I too agree with MatthewSB 100 percent,

...could have not said it better myself. :thumbup: :thumbup:




Big Mike

 

[okbohn]

The point Matthew made about them being in two separate categories is really the big deal here (IMO). I choose Bark River every day, but ESEE are great knives. ESEE are significantly less expensive and are a lot of bang for your buck.

Both companies have great warranties and their owners are very involved in customer service.

 

[meanwhile]

Agree 100% I would take BRKT over ESSE (Survival knives that cannot throw sparks off fero road, will cause hot spots, inferior in cutting, slicing, chopping - what a joke). BTW BRKT has an excellent Life Time warranty for $15 (shipping cost) they will do any SPA treatment you can imagine.

Any knife will throw sparks off a ferro rod if you file the side of the blade so there is a sharp edge; this is why some knives don't - because a more curved edge is more ergonomic if you are going to eg use the knife as a draw knife. You can take a knife either way very quickly with a file. If you don't know these things, which are pretty damn basic, I'm puzzled why you think you are able to give such definitive advice, and I think you'll understand why I counsel ignoring your opinion of how well either knife does anything.

Talking of survival knives, the Bravo is supposed to be the BKRT's ultimate achievement there - for "heavy duty" "absusive real time situations" no less! However -

http://www.knifetest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1715

Quick summary:

Cutting: Very good

Chopping: Not surprisingly great but not bad for it's small size. The edge rolled enough to degrade the initial edge

Batoning: To small for a 4x4 so I batoned a few 2x6's. The edge bent out of shape in one place.

Tip: No problems on wood or metal but broke on concrete.

Hammer impacts: No breakage occurred but the edge continued to bend out of shape on wood.

Concrete: after just one hit the edge chipped out this continued through most of this test.

Body weight test: Survived the first position. 225 lbs bouncing load.

Flex Test: One pull broke at about 5 degrees based on viewing the tape.

Body weight test again: Broke in the second position first try.

Overall: I'm not impressed with the Bravo ones durability or strength. The edge is not strong or durable in anyway. The Bark River Boone II was a much better knife during d-testing as it handled all the stress much better. Since this will come up. I didn't see anything here that would lead me to believe it was the last knife standing in the mystery military tests. Nothing really stood out from the competition that says this knife is some indestructible beast. It's abuse threshold is low for a 1/4" thick knife. For a size comparison The RC-4, Boone II, and Gerber ASEK knife performed much better.

I.e. the knife did poorly compared even to much cheaper knives in its category. (There are half dozen videos at that URL if anyone has enough time to watch that much Fail.)

As for the BKRT "lifetime warranty": it simply means that Mike Stewart will fix the knife or not without charge if he feels it is warranted. Firstly, the man is a convicted felon, so I don't feel like relying on his sense of responsibility. Secondly, I can have been told of cases where people got a new knife that was clearly defective, and all the warranty meant was that it was re-ground - radically, to a geometry they hadn't wanted to buy - and sent back to them after months. I'm not sure I call this a "warranty" - it's more like the absence of an effective one. (Didn't this happen to the guy whose BKRT broke cutting a chopstick???)

Anyway: there are lots of adequate knives in this price range. ESEE have an outstanding reputation for reliability and a warranty that actually means something, but you might also look at Scrapyard and Swamprat if you need hard use knives.

 

[ridnovir]

Any knife will throw sparks off a ferro rod if you file the side of the blade so there is a sharp edge; this is why some knives don't - because a more curved edge is more ergonomic if you are going to eg use the knife as a draw knife. You can take a knife either way very quickly with a file. If you don't know these things, which are pretty damn basic, I'm puzzled why you think you are able to give such definitive advice, and I think you'll understand why I counsel ignoring your opinion of how well either knife does anything.

You kidding me right? Did you try to throw off sparks off ferro with an ESSE knife? I did. It did not work. WHY? Because of thick and Ugly baked epoxy coating. I am sure you can throw off sparks by using the edge (which will ruin it so you cannot depend on it) I am sure you can file the spine to make a sharp corner but WHY should I (the costumer who buys an ultimate survival knife) do it on my own. WHY is it marketed as survival knife and does not have a sharp spine to throw damn sparks WHY? WHY does it try to rip my skin off after 10 minutes of moderate use WHY?

Talking of survival knives, the Bravo is supposed to be the BKRT's ultimate achievement there - for "heavy duty" "absusive real time situations" no less! However -

I.e. the knife did poorly compared even to much cheaper knives in its category. (There are half dozen videos at that URL if anyone has enough time to watch that much Fail.)

You kidding me right? This test does not prove ANYTHING. WHY would anyone hit the knife with the hammer or cut concrete with it. Survival knife supposed to be good at camp chores, shelter building, food prep game prep. Bravo excels in all these categories which makes it a winner in my book
That guy should test prybars

As for the BKRT "lifetime warranty": it simply means that Mike Stewart will fix the knife or not without charge if he feels it is warranted. Firstly, the man is a convicted felon, so I don't feel like relying on his sense of responsibility. Secondly, I can have been told of cases where people got a new knife that was clearly defective, and all the warranty meant was that it was re-ground - radically, to a geometry they hadn't wanted to buy - and sent back to them after months. I'm not sure I call this a "warranty" - it's more like the absence of an effective one. (Didn't this happen to the guy whose BKRT broke cutting a chopstick???)

I am sure there are a few who had some issues which pales against thousands who get perfect knives and good services. I for one sent severl knives for SPA treatment and was always satisfied with service.

Anyway: there are lots of adequate knives in this price range. ESEE have an outstanding reputation for reliability and a warranty that actually means something, but you might also look at Scrapyard and Swamprat if you need hard use knives.

ESSEs are good for what they are at the price they sell but they should not be marketed as ultimate survival knives by guys running around in jungle
BRKT Bravo is not marketed as a survival knife but it has proved itself as one

 

[PatrickKnight]

I would take an ESEE over a Bark River anyday. Reason why is I have never had an ESEE with a bad heat treat can not say the same for Bark River. While I do agree they are different classes of tools, in that same class is Blind Horse I would highly suggest Blind Horse over Bark River, in my eyes you get a better product from better people if you go with Blind Horse.

 

[MatthewSB]

Talking of survival knives, the Bravo is supposed to be the BKRT's ultimate achievement there - for "heavy duty" "absusive real time situations" no less! However -

That test is useless. Like I said elsewhere, taking the knife destruction tests seriously is like me cutting my pickup in half with a giant cutting torch, then whining because all Toyota trucks are junk and can't stand up to real world use.

As for the BKRT "lifetime warranty": it simply means that Mike Stewart will fix the knife or not without charge if he feels it is warranted. Firstly, the man is a convicted felon, so I don't feel like relying on his sense of responsibility. Secondly, I can have been told of cases where people got a new knife that was clearly defective, and all the warranty meant was that it was re-ground - radically, to a geometry they hadn't wanted to buy - and sent back to them after months. I'm not sure I call this a "warranty" - it's more like the absence of an effective one. (Didn't this happen to the guy whose BKRT broke cutting a chopstick???)

I've sent knives to BRKT a half dozen times or so. Each time they fixed what I wanted them to fix, and returned the knife promptly.

WHY would anyone hit the knife with the hammer or cut concrete with it. Survival knife supposed to be good at camp chores, shelter building, food prep game prep. Bravo excels in all these categories which makes it a wiener in my book

This is so funny to me.

While I agree that my Bravo 1s are fantastic survival knives, they are definately not weiners in my book.

 

[ridnovir]

That test is useless. Like I said elsewhere, taking the knife destruction tests seriously is like me cutting my pickup in half with a giant cutting torch, then whining because all Toyota trucks are junk and can't stand up to real world use.



I've sent knives to BRKT a half dozen times or so. Each time they fixed what I wanted them to fix, and returned the knife promptly.



This is so funny to me.

While I agree that my Bravo 1s are fantastic survival knives, they are definately not winners in my book.

Damn spell auto. I meant winner in my book. which should be evident by overall tone of my post.

 

[meanwhile]

That test is useless. Like I said elsewhere, taking the knife destruction tests seriously is like me cutting my pickup in half with a giant cutting torch, then whining because all Toyota trucks are junk and can't stand up to real world use.

THE BRAVO FAILED WHILE CUTTING A 2 X 6!!! Cutting wood is what bushcraft knives are supposed to be able to do. If you think that this is an unfair test of a $200 survival knife, I have no idea what you think the knife is supposed to help you survive - a busy shift at a sandwich bar? "Man, the Bravo can't baton wood for s*** - but that blade is da bomb for spreading mayo!"

As for the other tests: I wouldn't consider it essential for a knife to pass them in order to be safe to be used for bushcraft. But when a knife is advertised as a "search and rescue knife" for "extreme real time abuse" and costs $200, then I do consider it fair to expect it to be tough as the sub $100 knife that the military widely issue for that role - in this case the ASEK.

I've sent knives to BRKT a half dozen times or so. Each time they fixed what I wanted them to fix, and returned the knife promptly.

I've never had to send a knife to Mora once.

 

[ridnovir]

I've never had to send a knife to Mora once.

What does that prove? I did not send the knife to BRKT because it had a defect but because I wanted changes made to it (remove ramp, put full height grind, change scales, sharpen, etc). Will Mora do all of these things for ya? See, that is why you did not send it to them even once.

 

[meanwhile]

You kidding me right? Did you try to throw off sparks off ferro with an ESSE knife? I did. It did not work. WHY? Because of thick and Ugly baked epoxy coating.

For goodness sakes, man: if you want to use a firesteel with the knife, then remove the epoxy at the spot you wish to use as a striker. Do you need someone to tell you how to operate the zipper on your fly too? Or are you going to complain that someone has sewn shut the pee-pee flap on your trousers?

I am sure you can throw off sparks by using the edge (which will ruin it so you cannot depend on it) I am sure you can file the spine to make a sharp corner but WHY should I (the costumer who buys an ultimate survival knife) do it on my own. WHY is it marketed as survival knife and does not have a sharp spine to throw damn sparks WHY?

Because it is a real survival knife not a poseur's toy. Firesteels are just one way of starting a fire, you can easily carry a striker rod to use with them, and removing an inch of coating in much less hassle than adding one. (Which for a start would mean buying a tin of epoxy paint..)

WHY does it try to rip my skin off after 10 minutes of moderate use WHY?

I can't comment, except to say that some hands and some knife handle don't match, and that I suspect most people who really need and would benefit from a survival knife would fix such a mismatch with a file. Whereas fixing the bad heat treats and other construction problems often reported with with Bark River's is a factory job.

You kidding me right? This test does not prove ANYTHING. WHY would anyone hit the knife with the hammer or cut concrete with it.

2x6's are made of wood, NOT concrete. If I'm going to carry a knife heavier and more expensive than a Mora Clipper for doing stuff to wood, then I damn well want it to be able to baton cut wood of this size.

Survival knife supposed to be good at camp chores, shelter building, food prep game prep.

Actually, the knives that are good at that are called "camp knives". "Camp knives." A "survival knife" for "realtime abuse" and "search and rescue" is expected to be rather tougher again.

Look: there is nothing wrong with paying $250 for a camp knife with a pretty handle - or in selling one. As long as you are honest about it! But when you prate about "search and rescue" and "realtime abuise" (I do find that phrase hilarious!) then you are setting the bar much higher, and this is how BRKT sell the Bravo. The ASEK *is* a real SAR knife: it can seriously pry and chisel metal and concrete without breaking, while still being a usable cutting tool. (If you don't understand the requirements for an SAR knife, then go look at Jay Fisher's site - be made the original parajumper knives for the USAF.) The Bravo can't do this. Either BR know this, and market the knife in a misleading way, or they are clueless. Neither possibility should fill a user with confidence if they are looking for more than a safe queen.

And even a decent camp knife should be tough enough to get through a 2x6 without hassle. A $200-$250 one, much more so.

 

[Shotgun]

WHY is it marketed as survival knife and does not have a sharp spine to throw damn sparks WHY?

Because not everyone needs or even wants that feature. A lot of people just use the scraper that comes with the firesteel.

I personally have had their mini northstar(a "bushcraft" blade) take significant damage to the edge when splitting a thumb sized piece of cedar. THUMB sized. My Izula 2 with an edge at about the same thickness has split full rounds of seasoned wood with no issues. Same for my Mora. I'm also not a fan of their owner and the tendency to regrind the crap out of a blade returned for warranty. I don't buy bark river anymore. YMMV.

 

[PatrickKnight]

I think Bark River knives would be a fine knife at $150. At $250 I will stick to Swamp Rat, Survive, or a custom I just dont think Bark Rivers are worth what they charge for them.

 

[Brisket]

Aside from the regurgitated second-hand Bark River hate stories, both ESEE and Bark River make good but very different knives. There are some models I really like from each company and some models I don't care for.

One of my ESEE's had poor sheath retention and it ended up falling out of the sheath and was lost in the woods. The much talked about ESEE warranty wasn't a damn bit of good in that situation. When I replaced it I stripped the coating, which I dislike, convexed the edge and replaced the factory sheath. In retrospect, if I took into consideration the cost of materials and value of my time improving that knife to my standards I could have purchased a production or custom knife made from better materials, with better fit and finish and much more to my liking both aesthetically and ergonomically. I think ESEE's are great knives for what they are and I really like the Izula, Rat 3 and Junglas designs. If all your knife desires are satisfied by companies like ESEE or Becker or Mora more power to you. If not and you find yourself wanting to modify them into something that better meets your needs, then I understand completely.

I own about a dozen Bark River knives presently, all purchased in the secondary market, and like with most brands there are some models I really like and some I don't care for. I have never experienced a warranty issue with Bark River but have taken advantage of the the spa treatment and it was as good as I was told it would be. I have had 2 issues, however, with Bark River knives. The leather sheaths are well designed but in some cases, mostly smaller knives, are flimsy due to the lightweight leather used. Bark River maintains that they use the appropriate materials for each sheath and everyone that disagrees with them just doesn't know what they are talking about. Appropriate materials for a knife sheath, in my opinion, don't flop like a flour tortilla. The other issue I have experienced was a too thin edge on a Sandvik steel blade that, although was very sharp, rolled if you looked at it wrong. I'm sure BRKT would have fixed it up for me, but it was an easy fix to do myself so that is exactly what I did. The subject of Mike Stewart's character comes up frequently in Bark River discussions because he is a polarizing figure in the knife community. He has brought this on himself and I will certainly make no apologies for him. I do, however, like many of the Bark River knives designs, the impressive selection of customized options available, their use of CPM-3V steel of which most of my recent Barkies are made from, convex edges which I am partial to, quality fit & finish that I have experienced and impressive performance. Having purchased my Barkies in the secondary market I have invested far less than the retail price point and conveniently avoided the whole "do I really want to put $ in that guy's pocket" issue. I'm very happy with my Barkies overall but something to consider is that if you are looking at paying full retail for one you are basically getting a semi-custom knife that is well into custom knife price ranges.

 

[ridnovir]

For goodness sakes, man: if you want to use a firesteel with the knife, then remove the epoxy at the spot you wish to use as a striker. Do you need someone to tell you how to operate the zipper on your fly too? Or are you going to complain that someone has sewn shut the pee-pee flap on your trousers?

man lets agree to disagree.

I will never understand why I should do mods to a knife that supposed to do it all for me (you can carry a file and matches and striker and pry-bar I will carry a good knife instead)

Also, if a knife cannot get through 2x6 while being hammered with a frigging hammer I do not fault it for it. I batoned my Bravo through thicker wood with no problems.

Moreover, I do not get your distinction between "camp" & "survival" knives at all.

 

[MatthewSB]

THE BRAVO FAILED WHILE CUTTING A 2 X 6!!! Cutting wood is what bushcraft knives are supposed to be able to do.

I've pounded my A2 and 3V Bravo 1s through some pretty knotty wood and have never had any damage as a result.

A test of one knife means very little when there are thousands of that model being used with few complaints.

I've never had to send a knife to Mora once.

I destroyed a Clipper using it in the woods, the fragile edge rolled while carving wood and the tip broke off drilling a hole in the hearthboard of a bow drill set. I threw it away, Moras are disposable knives.

Damn spell auto. I meant winner in my book. which should be evident by overall tone of my post.

It was obvious that you meant "winner", but still very funny.