ESEE 6 vs Bark RIver Fox River Magnum

[Mikael W]

1. You can get a VK Tommi blade at Brisa - the main website for Scandi blades - for around 50 Eu. Hand forged in silver steel yet. Putting together a complete knife should cost you less than $100. I'm sure the BR puukko you linked to will cost far more, but it will have the blade geometry of a $10 Mora, and therefore the same limits on its cutting ability. I really don't see the point of this, even if BR remember to epoxy the scales and manage not to overheat the edge when they grind.



2. So it's a moderately priced strong knife with mediocre performance; there's a place for that and ESEE's marketing isn't misleading, so I don't object the way I do with the Bravo.

3. Otoh, I'm not sure that you put the right edge angle: I'm fairly sure that Cliff Stamp runs his MTech 151 bowie with a 15 edge (actually a 15 with a 25 microbevel, I think) and that's 420 (more or less) hardened relatively low - which is one of the reasons 151s seem to be so tough. I hugely doubt that the ESEE is tempered lower than the MTech - if it is, then I suggest the answer is to buy neither knife and spend $25 on the MTech instead, plus a few dollars on a pair of micarta scales and a tube of glu.e (Because the MTech is prone to shedding its rubber handle, just like the Trailmaster it was cloned from.) I'd spend the $200 or so saved on a Scrapyard knife and a bottle of Pusser's Rum.



4. If the ESEE hasn't had the right angle set in sharpening, yes. Call me weird, but I'd rather have to spend an extra half an hour setting the apex angle on a knife the first time I use it than spend $200 a knife, have the edge blow, and get back a distorted mutant re-grind knife months later. If the warranty stories I've heard about BR were different - if mis-made knives had been replaced with pristine ones with the promised geometry that then performed as advertised, which is what should have happened - then I would feel much more positively about the brand. Instead, I'm rather glad the UK supplier was sold out of Rogue Bowies with the handle I wanted when I tried to order one.

1. I know what i can get from Brisa and I do buy from them.
The latest was the laminated #311 Mora blank at 15$, a Sambar Crown was bought from Highland Horn at 15£ and the sheath is the original that came with my BR Aurora.
(the Aurora got one from JRE)
I carry and use this Mora right now on a 24/7 schedule in my work and daily life and it performs as any laminated Mora I have used.

You are totally wrong about Mora and BR geometry are the same, as they are not!
I micro convex my Mora's until they perform like a scandigrind BR.
A new zerogrind Mora will roll and micro chip, when cutting modern materials of todays carpenting buisness.


2. I have nothing to object regarding Esee knives, but they are not for me.


3. I couldn't care less about what Cliff Stamp put on a knife, I don't read him at all!:thumbdn:


4. Esee have their followers and I see nothing wrong in that, but for my needs I want more performance and I got that already in 1970, when getting my first Solingen knife.
Those old Solingen are tough in a similiar way as Esee, but without the black coating.
They get their edgeholding from a thick edge and it worked for me until I started to get Fällkniven and Bark River models.
I think the FK NL series are in a class of their own regarding fit&finish, but also with built in designfeatures that makes them very functional.

My BR Rouge was made as a special order in Brazilian Rosewood and so far it's the only one like that.
There's a list of collectors wanting that knife, so I guess the value of it is secured!
It has an edge thickness more like an original 19th century Bowie and that is too thin for my kind of hard use, so I use the Golok instead.

I do agree in general that a replacement would be the route to go, if there's a manufacturing error built into a product.
Where to exactly draw the line, is a matter of judgement for the maker.
Knives are foremost tools made to be used as such and that's why in some cases it can be accepted to regrind an edge instead of simply replace it.

meanwhile, You have a lot of firm opinions of knives and knifemakers, but I wish You would tell us more about Your personal experience of the knives You turn down.
Mostly it sounds like You have picked up an opinion from someone else and made it into Your own.
So what knives do You actually own and use Yourself and for what purpose do You use them?



Regards
Mikael

 

[ozgooner]

I meant to say at the beginning that I would prefer this not descend into a mud slinging exercise at BRKT, but anyway....

My mate, who had been keen on the ESEE-6 after reading reviews etc, was a little underwhelmed when he actually handled one. Conversely, when I handed him the Fox River Magnum he fell for it immediately and has subsequently bought it from me.

Again, not that either of us have an issue with ESEE at all. I own and use an ESEE-4 extensively but also love my Bark River Aurora. As others have pointed out, they are in many ways different categories of knife, given blade steel, handle material, sheath material and price point. At the end of the day we are both happy with the knives we own and they do the job we ask of them.

 

[meanwhile]

You are totally wrong about Mora and BR geometry are the same, as they are not!

From the picture you showed of the putative puukko, they are in this case - at least if you mousepad sharpen the Mora.

3. I couldn't care less about what Cliff Stamp put on a knife, I don't read him at all!:thumbdn:

This is silly. You might not like Cliff Stamp, but if he can put a higher edge on a lower Rc knife than the edge you are putting on an ESEE, and then go out and limb trees all day, it shows that you have mis-set apex on the ESEE. If you want more sharpness, it is there to be had.

4. Esee have their followers and I see nothing wrong in that, but for my needs I want more performance

In that case, learn to get the edge angle right for your needs when sharpening.

Plus - what on earth does this have to do with buying BR? Buying a knife with the apex angle set right but which is prone to serious production flaws and has a lousy warranty is insane. Apex angles are easily reset, but fixing a bad HT - not!

Those old Solingen are tough in a similiar way as Esee, but without the black coating.
They get their edgeholding from a thick edge

This makes no sense to me.

I do agree in general that a replacement would be the route to go, if there's a manufacturing error built into a product.
Where to exactly draw the line, is a matter of judgement for the maker.

Soif the maker is a convicted felon with a history of ripping people off, one would be wise not to buy from him...?

Knives are foremost tools made to be used as such and that's why in some cases it can be accepted to regrind an edge instead of simply replace it.

This is silly: if you a knife you do so because you want a particular blade shape and edge angle, yes? Surely if a knife was so badly made that the only way to salvage the steel is to grind off so much of the blade these are changed completely it is time for the maker to admit a complete screw-up and replace the knife? If Mike Stewart contracts to provide a 15 dps chefs knife and he has to regrind it into a 30 dps boning knife to a knife out of the steel he mistreated, you think it is ok to inflict this on the customer?

meanwhile, You have a lot of firm opinions of knives and knifemakers, but I wish You would tell us more about Your personal experience of the knives You turn down.

This makes no sense: if I turn down a knife, then surely this means I haven't bought it? So how can I have a "personal experience" of it?

Mostly it sounds like You have picked up an opinion from someone else and made it into Your own.So what knives do You actually own and use Yourself and for what purpose do You use them?

I've done a fair amount of brush clearing with machetes, billhooks, bahco saws and mattocks. And at the other end of the dps spectrum I've played around with different chefs knives - I'm just re-apexing an EKA H8 blade to 15 dps as a small utility knife to complement my VG10 Chinese chefs knife. I've also done a fair of destroying stuff recently as part of re-modelling a house, which has meant a fair amount of baton cutting and prying to deal with getting stuff out of awkward corners - the stuff that Noss plays with in d-tests and which trashed that Bravo. I've found that a $30 Bahco Wrecking knife laughs at these jobs. It should, because it is 4 inches times 4mm of tool steel in a super tough handle designed so that the knife can be hammered into stuff chisel-style. So it's a complete mystery to me that people are willing to pay $250 for knives for "realtime abusive situations" that won't keep up with a $30 knife...

 

[meanwhile]

I meant to say at the beginning that I would prefer this not descend into a mud slinging exercise at BRKT, but anyway....

My mate, who had been keen on the ESEE-6 after reading reviews etc, was a little underwhelmed when he actually handled one. Conversely, when I handed him the Fox River Magnum he fell for it immediately and has subsequently bought it from me.

I'm not surprised. BR make much sexier looking knives than all but a handful of makers, and most people are positive about their ergonomics too. They do have a lot of positives; it's just unfortunate that QC seems poor and that reports suggest that the "lifetime warranty" may mean "Wait months and you'll eventually get a mutilated knife back."

 

[MatthewSB]

it's just unfortunate that QC seems poor and that reports suggest that the "lifetime warranty" may mean "Wait months and you'll eventually get a mutilated knife back."

I've had a BRKT knife that required repair due to my own mistreatment of it and I got it back, like new, in a week.

 

[ridnovir]

BARK RIVER ROCKS

mean wile I am tired of meanwile and this thread

 

[meanwhile]

I've had a BRKT knife that required repair due to my own mistreatment of it and I got it back, like new, in a week.

That's very positive.

 

[meanwhile]

BARK RIVER ROCKS

mean wile I am tired of meanwile and this thread

I am surprised by the intelligence of your argument; no way would I have believed that you were smart enough to embed an image in a post! However, I don't feel too bad because your spelling and grammar are at about the level I expected.

However, I still say that a "search and rescue knife" for "realtime abuse" should be able to cut a 2x6 without self-destructing, that knives should have epoxy between their scales and tangs, that said epoxy should be bug and dirt free, and that if a maker sells me a knife with bad HT then he owes me a new knife, not a hopeless mis-grind of the bad one to a geometry that has nothing to do with the blade shape I agreed to buy.

Anyway, MORE insight into the razor sharp thinking processes of a man who thinks that it is irrelevant that a knife has a poor HT and a barely attached handle, thanks to my Internet Brain scanner:

 

[ridnovir]

I am surprised by the intelligence of your argument; no way would I have believed that you were smart enough to embed an image in a post! However, I don't feel too bad because your spelling and grammar are at about the level I expected.

Lets not make it personal. I am not knocking you intelligence here so expect the same from you. English is not my first language but I am sure I graduated with higher GPA than you did, Sir. Anyway, as I said your arguments are invalid and have no substance. Your claims are laughable, malicious, uneducated and have no proof. I get it you are on some personal vendetta against BRKT but keep it to yourself and let others decide for themselves.

 

[meanwhile]

Lets not make it personal. I am not knocking you intelligence here so expect the same from you.

Ok: you post a stupid picture to say that my arguments are irrelevant - without saying why - and I post a picture in reply that merely says "The same to you" (but adding text to say why this is true in your case) and I'm the one getting personal???

English is not my first language but I am sure I graduated with higher GPA than you did, Sir.

You're probably sure about a lot of things that are wrong. Especially those that protect your self-esteem.

Anyway, as I said your arguments are invalid and have no substance.

Yes, you say this - but so what? Those incidents did happen. "Nah-nah, can't hear you" is not a reasonable response.

Your claims are laughable, malicious, uneducated and have no proof.

Except Noss's dtest, widespread reports of blades chipping, 40 plus knives being examined and the lack of epoxy, the dead bugs, the chopsticks, Stewart's criminal record, Fisk's posts here...

I get it you are on some personal vendetta against BRKT

This is pathetic. You accuse me or being "personal" but I have studiously NOT accused you of being a paid shill. And let's face it - why should someone believe that you are not? Ethically Stewart has done much worse things than paying people to make positive posts on Internet forums.

Otoh, given Stewart's history, he must have a fair number of enemies...

 

[ridnovir]

First of all, Mr. Stewart does not pay me I pay him for his excellent knives which never disappointed me once. His costumer service is top notch too. I dealt with him several times and was always satisfied.
You may see for yourself on the "other" knife forum where he is very active and readily answers your questions.

Second of all I do respect Mr. Kyley Harris at cKc I have his Thrive, which I like, and do converse with him from time to time. I know he is not found of BRKT, which I am fine with, but for other reasons and he never mentioned taking 40 barkies apart to check epoxy.

just saying - get your facts straight man and do not offer misleading info. according to you BRKT produces bad knives at inflated prices which does not explain why so many people love BRKT and think highly of their products and CS

 

[Morrow]

meanwhile and ridnovir

You both need to knock off the back and forth nonsense. Stay on topic or don't post. Talking about each other IS NOT on topic in case you didn't already know that.

 

[Mikael W]

From the picture you showed of the putative puukko, they are in this case - at least if you mousepad sharpen the Mora.





This is silly. You might not like Cliff Stamp, but if he can put a higher edge on a lower Rc knife than the edge you are putting on an ESEE, and then go out and limb trees all day, it shows that you have mis-set apex on the ESEE. If you want more sharpness, it is there to be had.




In that case, learn to get the edge angle right for your needs when sharpening.

Plus - what on earth does this have to do with buying BR? Buying a knife with the apex angle set right but which is prone to serious production flaws and has a lousy warranty is insane. Apex angles are easily reset, but fixing a bad HT - not!



This makes no sense to me.



Soif the maker is a convicted felon with a history of ripping people off, one would be wise not to buy from him...?



This is silly: if you a knife you do so because you want a particular blade shape and edge angle, yes? Surely if a knife was so badly made that the only way to salvage the steel is to grind off so much of the blade these are changed completely it is time for the maker to admit a complete screw-up and replace the knife? If Mike Stewart contracts to provide a 15 dps chefs knife and he has to regrind it into a 30 dps boning knife to a knife out of the steel he mistreated, you think it is ok to inflict this on the customer?



This makes no sense: if I turn down a knife, then surely this means I haven't bought it? So how can I have a "personal experience" of it?



I've done a fair amount of brush clearing with machetes, billhooks, bahco saws and mattocks. And at the other end of the dps spectrum I've played around with different chefs knives - I'm just re-apexing an EKA H8 blade to 15 dps as a small utility knife to complement my VG10 Chinese chefs knife. I've also done a fair of destroying stuff recently as part of re-modelling a house, which has meant a fair amount of baton cutting and prying to deal with getting stuff out of awkward corners - the stuff that Noss plays with in d-tests and which trashed that Bravo. I've found that a $30 Bahco Wrecking knife laughs at these jobs. It should, because it is 4 inches times 4mm of tool steel in a super tough handle designed so that the knife can be hammered into stuff chisel-style. So it's a complete mystery to me that people are willing to pay $250 for knives for "realtime abusive situations" that won't keep up with a $30 knife...

Well I made my mind up a long time ago regarding Mike Stewart and his Bark River Knives.

I think he has added a lot of fun to the knife community with his great variety of models.
Mike Stewart adds more than he takes, so he will still get my buisness through the stocking dealers.

BTW here's one of my Bacho knives that used to be a chisel knife and it is indeed a good cutter after I convexed it the Bark River way!

View attachment 342739View attachment 342740View attachment 342741

Regards
Mikael

 

[Translash]

Although I dont have either specific model, I think both companies are great. However, I think the Bark River models are better suited for bush tasks. I find ESEE saber grinds and coatings to be somewhat of a hindrance when performing bushcraft tasks. Both will do great though.

Regarding user 'meanwhile', his comments bashing bark river knives are unfortunately vapid. He has never owned or used them, so essentially his bashing comments mean absolutely nothing. Had he actually had a true bad experience rather than using other people's to back his nonsense up, he probably would be more credible.

My best advice: right click his name and click view profile. On the left hand side there is an "add to ignore list" option. That's what I'm doing.

 

[TTTis]

I find ESEE saber grinds and coatings to be somewhat of a hindrance when performing bushcraft tasks.

ESEE knives are almost exclusively flat ground. I think they only have two models that are saber. Coatings can be removed if that is really a bother.



In my experience, BRKT's are very delicate. The grinds are almost too lean, cut great but chip easy. I owned the Bravo Necker 1 in 3v and I believe the problem with that one was it ran too hard, 60 if I'm not mistaken. That thing chipped out horribly for me, wasn't just the factory edge either. The only BRKT I now own is the BN2 in 3v and that is ran at 58. Haven't had nearly the same problems, but I still do get small chipping unfortunately. You'll find plenty of reports of people chipping out their BRKT's, so meanwhile isn't making the stuff up. The grind on my BN2 is also not great, it looks like a recurve. The stock is actually thinner near the heel than in the middle of the blade. I don't know if someone was tired when they ground it or what. At the price point, I think they are a bit overrated personally. They are definitely gorgeous, but not the reason I buy knives. For the price of most BRKT's I'd rather get a custom fixed off this forum.

 

[PatrickKnight]

Although I dont have either specific model, I think both companies are great. However, I think the Bark River models are better suited for bush tasks. I find ESEE saber grinds and coatings to be somewhat of a hindrance when performing bushcraft tasks. Both will do great though.

Regarding user 'meanwhile', his comments bashing bark river knives are unfortunately vapid. He has never owned or used them, so essentially his bashing comments mean absolutely nothing. Had he actually had a true bad experience rather than using other people's to back his nonsense up, he probably would be more credible.

My best advice: right click his name and click view profile. On the left hand side there is an "add to ignore list" option. That's what I'm doing.

Well I can safely say I have had a bad experience with a Bark River KNIFE not the whole company. I had an A2 Bravo 1 with a heat treat that seemed to be done by a todler, and while the knife was nothing more than a paper weight I will say they did take care of not just fixing the knife but sending me a new knife. So while I had a bad experience with a knife they did make it right. That being said had the heat treat not been blown I still thought the edge was way to thin for me to trust it to hard use, and honestly I would put more trust in my ESEE 3 than I would have that Bravo 1 in hard use.

The Bark River was nice to look at but my modded ESEE 3 is a better user. I think the ESEE stock handle scales due lack some contour but that is easily fixed with TKC scales (talking the ESEE 6 here).

So to make it clear the things I have done to my ESEE 3 are:
stripped the coating on the blade section (left it on the handle to help with rusting)
convexed the edge
had custom handle scales made

With those things done and all costs factored in the price of my ESEE comes in right at 150 bucks. It slices better than the Barvo 1 did, the sheath is worlds better than the one that came with the Bravo 1, ESEE has the best warranty in the knife business period, and the edge doesnt chip like the Bravo 1 did this inculdes the replacement knife I was sent.

 

[Mikael W]

SMI
Thanks for the firsthand info!
I understand if You buy another brand with such an experience.
I have two BR's in 3V, the Liten Bror and the Lil' C.
Both are rc 58 but I believe 3V should work reasonably well also at rc60.

I will experience that if I get the Scandi.


Regards
Mikael

 

[PatrickKnight]

3V works just fine at 60. Guy from Survive knives runs his 3V at 60 but the heat treat is done by Peters, maybe Bark River should consider sending there 3V knives to Peters for heat treat

3V at 58 is roughly 1/3 tougher than 3V at 60, but at 60 it holds its edge for a longgggggggggggg time.

 

[Mikael W]

3V works just fine at 60. Guy from Survive knives runs his 3V at 60 but the heat treat is done by Peters, maybe Bark River should consider sending there 3V knives to Peters for heat treat

3V at 58 is roughly 1/3 tougher than 3V at 60, but at 60 it holds its edge for a longgggggggggggg time.

Sounds like what I have heard about 3V at 60, but as I so far only have 3V at 58, I will not speculate and wait until I get one.


Regards
Mikael

 

[MatthewSB]

Well I can safely say I have had a bad experience with a Bark River KNIFE not the whole company. I had an A2 Bravo 1 with a heat treat that seemed to be done by a todler, and while the knife was nothing more than a paper weight I will say they did take care of not just fixing the knife but sending me a new knife. So while I had a bad experience with a knife they did make it right.

How did you discover that you had a bad heat treat?