ESEE 6 vs Bark RIver Fox River Magnum

[PatrickKnight]

How did you discover that you had a bad heat treat?

The edge chipped everytime it came in contact with anything, also Bark River varified this once I sent them the knife. I know things can happen and the people I spoke with on the phone at Bark River were always very nice. As I said before I dont think they would be bad knives at 150 bucks but at 250 they leave a lot to be desired in my eyes.

 

[Big Mike]

3V works just fine at 60. Guy from Survive knives runs his 3V at 60 but the heat treat is done by Peters, maybe Bark River should consider sending there 3V knives to Peters for heat treat

3V at 58 is roughly 1/3 tougher than 3V at 60, but at 60 it holds its edge for a longgggggggggggg time.

Who do YOU think heat treats Bark River's 3V?





Big Mike

 

[TTTis]

SMI
Thanks for the firsthand info!
I understand if You buy another brand with such an experience.
I have two BR's in 3V, the Liten Bror and the Lil' C.
Both are rc 58 but I believe 3V should work reasonably well also at rc60.

I will experience that if I get the Scandi.


Regards
Mikael

Hey Mikael,

This was my first experience with 3v from any maker. BRKT's 3v at 58 and 60. I had seriously high hopes as I've heard so many great things about 3v. My experiences at both hardness's have left a lot to be desired. My Sebenzas I had hardened to 60 in S35 hold a better edge and are worlds tougher than the BR's. Haven't had any chipping with those either. Now granted I use them a little differently of course, but not by much.

I'm starting to think it has to do with how lean the grinds are on these knives. Maybe the edges are just too delicate?

3V works just fine at 60. Guy from Survive knives runs his 3V at 60 but the heat treat is done by Peters, maybe Bark River should consider sending there 3V knives to Peters for heat treat

3V at 58 is roughly 1/3 tougher than 3V at 60, but at 60 it holds its edge for a longgggggggggggg time.

Have you had experience with his knives? I'm still wanting to give 3v a good shot, but BRKT's are off my list for now.

Trying to find a 3v fixed around the same size as the Bravo Necker 2. Looking at surviveknives, I guess he wouldn't have one that fit the bill. Maybe I will search for a custom or something.

 

[Mikael W]

Hey Mikael,

This was my first experience with 3v from any maker. BRKT's 3v at 58 and 60. I had seriously high hopes as I've heard so many great things about 3v. My experiences at both hardness's have left a lot to be desired. My Sebenzas I had hardened to 60 in S35 hold a better edge and are worlds tougher than the BR's. Haven't had any chipping with those either. Now granted I use them a little differently of course, but not by much.

I'm starting to think it has to do with how lean the grinds are on these knives. Maybe the edges are just too delicate?

Well, I really can't tell as I don't have any of the Neckers and both of mine has plenty of steel in the edge.
The Lil' C had a way too thick edge out of the box and I thinned it before I did any real cutting with it.
There's no trouble at all with these two and I checked the Liten Bror in the workshop this morning.
I did some cuts in knotty, dry applewood and it cuts as it should.

Some of my Barkies have had thin cutting edges out of the box, but I always check the edgeholding and if necessary adjust them before putting any real force to them.
Two of them chipped anyway and one have had a rolled edge.
All three were damaged in heavy chopping, with perhaps the wrong technique from my side.
I learnt a lot from this and also checked my thinking with BR.
They didn't say I was wrong.

As for Barkies at rc 60 I have the cps-xhp Woodland Special and the Huntsman in A2
The Woodland is a little bit thinner, but the performance is among my best knives ever!
This knife was only made in about 50 pieces, but it's a jewel in my inventory and I know other owners appreciate theirs too.
I prefer to use this one over the 3V knives due to the nice cutting ability.

View attachment 343113


Regards
Mikael

 

[meanwhile]

Who do YOU think heat treats Bark River's 3V?

Something that most people who think they know about knives don't get is that even a good HT can be ruined by careless grinding. (Hint: there is a thing called "friction" and it can create heat!) And when this happens, you can see brittle edges - exactly what people complain of most with BRs. Concentrating on who does the HT for BR misses the point; God or Jerry Fisk (has Mike Steward ripped off both of these or just one, btw?) could do BR's heat treats and it still wouldn't matter if someone at BR ground carelessly afterwards.

Originally Posted by SMI
I'm starting to think it has to do with how lean the grinds are on these knives. Maybe the edges are just too delicate?

Competently ground edges can be very thin, even in choppers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrxB3Iy8Tsw

 

[Dan57]

meanwhile, You have a lot of firm opinions of knives and knifemakers, but I wish You would tell us more about Your personal experience of the knives You turn down.
Mostly it sounds like You have picked up an opinion from someone else and made it into Your own.
So what knives do You actually own and use Yourself and for what purpose do You use them?

What's wrong with arguing over something one doesn't have experience with? It's widely accepted, most places, that first hand experience isn't necessary for debate. It's all about sources.
In fact, someone with a fair amount of reliable sources, but no first hand experience, seems (to me) to have a more valid argument than someone with only first hand experience. Because sources usually are made up of the first hand experiences of other people, someone with multiple sources effectively has multiple people on their side, while anyone who argues from just their own experience is alone.
For example, here's the source of the whole "bugs in epoxy" thing Meanwhile was talking about. (You'll have to scroll down a bit.) Personally, I trust Kyley Harris' take on the matter.

Who do YOU think heat treats Bark River's 3V?

Where'd you get this from? I assumed they did it in-house.

 

[meanwhile]

Although I dont have either specific model, I think both companies are great. However, I think the Bark River models are better suited for bush tasks. I find ESEE saber grinds and coatings to be somewhat of a hindrance when performing bushcraft tasks. Both will do great though.

Regarding user 'meanwhile', his comments bashing bark river knives are unfortunately vapid. He has never owned or used them, so essentially his bashing comments mean absolutely nothing.

Apparently you don't understand the functioning of normal human intelligence. I've never owned a Soviet nuclear power plant, but I can still read a study on Chernobyl and draw conclusions. This is what the human brain is for, rather than - well, whatever you assumed. Ditto with BR's knives: when a large sample are dismantled and a quarter are found to be missing epoxy on the scales and many of the remainder have bugs and dirt in the epoxy, and none of the 12c27 knives in the sample seem to have been correctly HTed, then anyone with reasonable intelligence can say "Shouldn't one expect more than this from a maker who charges $150 for a Mora Clipper clone???" Am I really required to be stupid or masochistic enough to buy a BR knife, knowing these things, to mention them???

 

[meanwhile]

What's wrong with arguing over something one doesn't have experience with? It's widely accepted, most places, that first hand experience isn't necessary for debate. It's all about sources.
In fact, someone with a fair amount of reliable sources, but no first hand experience, seems (to me) to have a more valid argument than someone with only first hand experience. Because sources usually are made up of the first hand experiences of other people, someone with multiple sources effectively has multiple people on their side, while anyone who argues from just their own experience is alone.
For example, here's the source of the whole "bugs in epoxy" thing Meanwhile was talking about. (You'll have to scroll down a bit.) Personally, I trust Kyley Harris' take on the matter.

It's really pretty simple: either you think bugs in epxy - and missing epoxy - are a sign of awful QC and production values or you do not. You can't magically invalidate them by saying "The guy who brought this to my attention doesn't have a BR knife!"

Or you can, but that's VERY silly!

 

[Mikael W]

What's wrong with arguing over something one doesn't have experience with? It's widely accepted, most places, that first hand experience isn't necessary for debate. It's all about sources.
In fact, someone with a fair amount of reliable sources, but no first hand experience, seems (to me) to have a more valid argument than someone with only first hand experience. Because sources usually are made up of the first hand experiences of other people, someone with multiple sources effectively has multiple people on their side, while anyone who argues from just their own experience is alone.
For example, here's the source of the whole "bugs in epoxy" thing Meanwhile was talking about. (You'll have to scroll down a bit.) Personally, I trust Kyley Harris' take on the matter.


Where'd you get this from? I assumed they did it in-house.

Dan57
I beg to disagree with You

As a source I too trust Kyley Harris and I have spoken to him in many threads in the past and always respected him.
Meanwhile simply parrots a lot of other peoples knowledge, without any deeper understandings of the subject he tries to tell about.
Frankly I find that attitude less credible than people who has a thinking out of their own experience.

About who does the heat-treatment, I'm not sure but I think Big Mike means that Bark River Knives has outsourced this to Peters.


Regards
Mikael

 

[meanwhile]

Dan57
I beg to disagree with You

As a source I too trust Kyley Harris and I have spoken to him in many threads in the past and always respected him.
Meanwhile simply parrots a lot of other peoples knowledge, without any deeper understandings of the subject he tries to tell about.

This is an ad hom, and its typical of both BR's shilling fanbois and Milkael's behaviour in this thread. Facts are either right or wrong. Anything else is evasion, moral cowardice, and bad manners. Man up, Mikey boy, man up!

I just found this gem of a thread - is it less valid because I have never been a BR dealer???

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-amp-the-BRK-amp-T-gang?p=3626763#post3626763

Temper
Registered User

Join Date
Oct 2002
Location
Saitama, Japan
Posts
3,011
OK I will do that, I'm pretty pissed off to tell the truth.

Around December of last year I decided to stock BRK&T knives. I ordered in a few to see how I liked them and how well they sold. One of the models was in Blaze Orange. It was a little dirty but I managed to clean it up enough to my standards before I sent it out. I re-ordered the same model and some additional models as I had liked what I saw.

In the next order I received some Gameskeepers, these also included a Blaze Orange handled model. Only this time it was impossible for me to clean it up as the there was black ground in around the NS bolster and in patches all over the handle.

Usually I just send them back to the distributor, but believing that it must have been a mistake on their part or a slip in the Q.C check I PM'd Mike on another forum where he moderates a section. Mike was quick to reply and asked me to send it in and that he would take care of me for the shipping I would have to pay.

I sent the knife back to him around the end of December. Fast forward to 23 Jan, then 16 Feb then 27 Feb and still nothing. The knives arrived this morning. I opened them up and there was another knife in there as compensation. Well, I was really happy they they had lived up to their word, albeit a little slower than I would have liked. So, while I dealt with email and coffee I wrote this post without actually checking the knives. Email out of the way and well caffiineated I cleared a space on my desk and gave them the once over.

The original knife I sent back, looked like the original knife in that it was filthy, but one of the holes in the scales was over size and I could see a space and polishing compound stuck in it, it also looked like it had been dropped.

The 'Compensation' knife is a Mini Slither custom. This had gouges in the lanyard tube, un-even bolsters and even different shaped bolsters.

Basically I received 2 knives that I couldn't sell and would be hard pushed to give away without being embarrased.



whitie
Registered User
Join Date
Sep 2005
Posts
183
Temper,

I've been down the same road and quickly dropped BRKT knives for the same reasons. Quality isn't a priority for Bark River and your reputation would get tarnished peddling their knives.

whitie




DirkDiggler
Registered User
Join Date
Mar 2005
Posts
78

Temper,, alot of dealers I have talked to have dropped Bark River from there inventory. Selling poor quality knives made the dealers look bad to there customers.

I posted on the other forum last year after hearing reports about poor QC and edges chipping out from cutting soft items like knot free pine. Mike Stewart and his henchmen jumped all over me. They would not admit there was a problem with there heat treat. They only tryed to shut me up. Then Stewart complained to his friend the forum owner who also began giving me sh*t in PM's and would not allow me in to the Secret Order of the SAK because I was a "trouble maker". He then said I had to give him my real name address and phnoe number if I wanted to be allowed in. All this because I relaid information I had heard about Bark River. I was not looking to make trouble.

I will not own a Bark River knife because of that. I am also leary of any one who is a vocal cheer leader for that company.

-DD

P.S. I also do not like how BRK&T calls flaws in there knives "features" or "character".




whitie
Registered User
Join Date
Sep 2005
Posts
183
DD, I know 3 other dealers that dropped BRKT for quality reasons. You can't mention such things or yes you'll be attacked. BTW, it looks like the "henchmen" are still after you.

whitie

What's even worse is the behaviour of the BR shills in that thread - saying that BR should have been contacted (they had been!) or that such flaws (in-ground dirt and mis-sized scales) really should be considered acceptable in new knives as "character"!

 

[Dan57]

About who does the heat-treatment, I'm not sure but I think Big Mike means that Bark River Knives has outsourced this to Peters.

I understood that part; I was just wondering where he got that information from.

 

[meanwhile]

Anyway, my point is that as a community we should at some point say to certain knife makers NO MORE BULLSHIT!

In BR's case that means they can't advertise the Bravo as a "search and rescue knife" for "realtime abuse" and then shrug off the fact that knives break batonning wood. That dirt and mis-sized handles are not "character". That a lifetime warranty means a replacement or a refund if a new knife has badly chipped, not grinding it down to a steak knife and sending it back to the customer. And that they do not encourage the weaker minded members of their fan base to form pathetic packs to harass people.

Are these things unreasonable? I think not. You get them from Busse and Mora and Spyderco - and from ESEE for that matter. When Spyderco sell you a slicer, they damn well tell you it's a slicer - they don't call it "The ultimate helicopter devouring SAR blade" until you try to chop a branch with it, then unleash their fanboi hordes. Busse - well, if Busse ever do make an optimized slicer, I'm sure it will be labelled as such.

NO MORE BULLSHIT! Who can really be against that?

 

[Mikael W]

I understood that part; I was just wondering where he got that information from.

I guess Big Mike is the best to answer that, but if I remember correctly I have read somewhere that BR has outsourced the heat-treatment.
I can be totally wrong on this, but time will tell.


Regards
Mikael

 

[Balboa256]

I have had good luck with newer Linder products i.e. Crocodile Hunter and Imbiua c60 carbon classic. Both made in Solingen. They have a thick edge but still seem to shave wood well.

 

[RevDevil]

I have had good luck with newer Linder products i.e. Crocodile Hunter and Imbiua c60 carbon classic. Both made in Solingen. They have a thick edge but still seem to shave wood well.

This discussion is about ESEE or BRKT, that is what the original topic is about. Not about random brands that provide good results. Ty and stay on the topic, especially if you must bump an old thread.

 

[fingerjonsin]

Although I like bark river I will say that the new stuff I have bought, the handle scales are a bit off, there's a slight microbevel on the 3v gunnies I have but I still love em. I like grinding my own edges anyway so I don't mind but everyone is not like me so I see some of the member's points. I try to be as unbiased as I can and I will say that BR's QC is a hit or miss. Still like the knives but I am cautious and will probably wait until the folders come out and then I'll hopefully be satisfied. I also had an epk(emergency preparedness knife) a very small 4 inch knife and one of the pins just pushed out like it wasn't even glued or anything! I wasn't mad but I was like,"You've got to be kidding me." Seeing that made me think of all posts I read about BR and their QC and the youtube vids I've watched. I just think they try to put out too many knives in such a short time they need to slow down and do the job right the first time. I'm not bashing them I love their knives, I have a golok, 3 gunnies, bravo necker 2, epk that I recently lost so I guess I don't have it lol, and a Bravo 1. The A2 steel that BR puts out seems to be fine, never had an issue. But as far as the 3v stuff I have had issues with the edge and the handle quality. I recommend the A2 stuff over the newer super steel. I just think they need to make things right no matter how outrageous the issues are. There are too many stories and videos of the quality just not to where it should be, especially for a semi production USA made product. I like the spa treatments but I don't really like paying for shipping on top of the 25 dollars they ask lol. Well I guess that's just business but I will continue to support them mainly because I love buying from Derrick, outstanding customer service I can't recommend him enough. I guess you can weigh out the facts and the truth with an unbiased and undivided mind and make up your own conclusions and that's what I've done and I will still buy from them knowing something might come a little ehhhhhh. lol, thanks for the time reading my essay.

 

[Mikael W]

Although I like bark river I will say that the new stuff I have bought, the handle scales are a bit off, there's a slight microbevel on the 3v gunnies I have but I still love em.
I like grinding my own edges anyway so I don't mind but everyone is not like me so I see some of the member's points.

I try to be as unbiased as I can and I will say that BR's QC is a hit or miss.
Still like the knives but I am cautious and will probably wait until the folders come out and then I'll hopefully be satisfied.

I also had an epk(emergency preparedness knife) a very small 4 inch knife and one of the pins just pushed out like it wasn't even glued or anything!
I wasn't mad but I was like,"You've got to be kidding me."
Seeing that made me think of all posts I read about BR and their QC and the youtube vids I've watched.

I just think they try to put out too many knives in such a short time they need to slow down and do the job right the first time.
I'm not bashing them I love their knives, I have a golok, 3 gunnies, bravo necker 2, epk that I recently lost so I guess I don't have it lol, and a Bravo 1.

The A2 steel that BR puts out seems to be fine, never had an issue. But as far as the 3v stuff I have had issues with the edge and the handle quality.
I recommend the A2 stuff over the newer super steel.

I just think they need to make things right no matter how outrageous the issues are.
There are too many stories and videos of the quality just not to where it should be, especially for a semi production USA made product.

I like the spa treatments but I don't really like paying for shipping on top of the 25 dollars they ask lol.
Well I guess that's just business but I will continue to support them mainly because I love buying from Derrick, outstanding customer service I can't recommend him enough.

I guess you can weigh out the facts and the truth with an unbiased and undivided mind and make up your own conclusions and that's what I've done and I will still buy from them knowing something might come a little ehhhhhh. lol, thanks for the time reading my essay.

Fingerjonsin, I agree with You, but I took the liberty to add spacing in my quote of Your post.
This makes it easier to read for me.

I too still buy Bark River Knives and as You say, Derrick & Wendy at KSF are good people to buy from! :thumbup:

My latest arrival from KSF was a second BR Rogue.
I had an opportunity to inspect a Rogue, bought by a collegue here in Sweden and got impressed.
The QC and specs has improved from the earlier Rogue I bought in 2007.

This older Rogue has now got a thicker edge, by carefully reset the edge with a thicker convex bevel.
It now holds an edge also when chopping.

My use of the new knife is in the "break-in" phase, but the improvements are solid and the knife feels more robust than the first one.
You may say the first is a slicer and the new is more towards chopping.
Still, the new one has a lot of capacity in finer work and this makes it a cross-over knife for a lot of tasks in the Outdoors.
This was what I hoped for and I'm certainly pleased with what I got!

The shipping and EU taxes have climbed to huge sums and are more than 50% add-on costs upon US pricetags.
This has nothing to do with BR, but makes me plan my US purchases more carefully nowadays.
Nevertheless, I find it worth to still be a KSF and BR customer!


Regards
Mikael

 

[Balboa256]

I have had good luck with newer Linder products i.e. Crocodile Hunter and Imbiua c60 carbon classic. Both made in Solingen. They have a thick edge but still seem to shave wood well. I would assume the ESEE geometry to be close to the same. However my BRKT Aurora with a much finer edge seems to give me great trouble when plaining or shaving wood. Sometimes I feel the BRKT convex grind may tend to split rather than shave. In all probablility I might just need more dirt time with it. I dont own an ESEE but if the grind is similar to that of the Linder's I have mentioned then they would work fine for me. I cant say I am that Im impressed with my Barkie, especially the sheath.

 

[upnorth]

I have an ESEE6 based on the reputations of the company owners, the lack of quality control complaints, and the way they stand behind their warranty on the rare chance it's needed. I have also met the owners and found them to be honorable folks.
based on similar criteria, I do not own any BRKT cutlery.

Interesting.

 

[Mikael W]

However my BRKT Aurora with a much finer edge seems to give me great trouble when plaining or shaving wood. Sometimes I feel the BRKT convex grind may tend to split rather than shave. In all probablility I might just need more dirt time with it.

Sounds like Your Aurora could need some sharpening!


Regards
Mikael