ESEE Junglas - Throwing

i would really like you to answer these questions....
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I see three questions. Your shorts look fine, lol. Nothing wrong with shorts. Nothing wrong with your pants either, except...why buy these kinds of knives if you aren't into the outdoors? Your clothing and statements indicate that you are not the outdoorsy sort, because only a person with a lack of knowledge would wear those kinds of things out in the words. It's not really throwing off on your clothing, just saying that you don't seem to have a reason for owning large knives except to own/throw/backyard chop them. I'm sorry if I came off "snarky". Perhaps you truly didn't realize the "look at me!" factor with your videos, or that you'd get such negative responses. Maybe we all could have stated things differently. I don't think your subsequent video actually proved anything, since I saw one throw, then one old piece of wood batoned. It just doesn't happen that fast. These ARE very hard use tools, as you know. But it does wear down the knife much much faster than using it as intended, which will also wear it down of course. As long as you realize that, and you're having fun regardless, kudos. I'm sure you will not be surprised if it snaps off and you're down one knife, but you already seem prepared for that. You've explained yourself pretty well. Now it just seems like even though you realize that what you're doing could break your knife faster and you have accepted that, OTHERS seem inclined not to accept the same common sense just for the sake of the argument. This thread has grown past what you choose to do with your knife, and how your fellow forum members feel about it, either negative or positive.
 
This thread is embarrassing...

To the OP, throwing actually is harder on knives that batoning and other hard use. ESEE has stated that this is abuse, and likely to eventually break the knife. Many enthusiasts frown on it because they worry about company reputation and warranty abuse.

That said, people are white knighting hard on you, being way over dramatic and insulting over it. I suggest ignoring them. Don't bother arguing, they are just being antagonistic nit-pickers and behaving that way because that's how the internet is.

Furthermore, I know people that have been vigorously throwing the same Battle Mistress for years, maybe even a decade without breaking it, so there are knives out there that can handle it.
 
smokeylovesmolly said:
@ RemyKaze

my parents barley gave me anything, except clothes, food, and a shelter over my head (with the exception of birthdays and x-mas) but even b-days and x-mas wernt all that "glamorous". thats why i have fun with the money i earn, because i WASN'T spoiled. i never got to be frivolous with my parents money, that's why i spend the money i get on whatever i want, and use it however i want. i usually don't let judgmental people like you get under my skin... but it bothers me how ignorant you are to make assumptions about somebody you don't know.
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I would think that if you never got anything like that from others, as is the exact same case with me, you would appreciate what you spend your own money on a little more. You've already stated that you blew the engine in a car you had just because you could. If we were both brought up in a similar situation, and yet when I buy something I treasure it, versus you really not caring how you screw it up as long as you have fun...yes, I'm going to consider you a little spoiled lol, because your mindset is that of "Oh I got a new toy, now the old one has no value, let's abuse it." Coming from the sort of family as you describe, I fail to see how you cannot put better value on the things you work hard to attain.


Edit: This is all apples and oranges. No one is going to convince the other party. I was being for real though...you wanna throw your knives, that's cool. I'd just like to see them used as intended to. Call me a traditionalist. If you're going to use that Junglas that way, why not make use some videos showing how much abuse it CAN take? That would be awesome.
 
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RemyKaze said:
When a person doesn't respect what they own, and what they put into it, that is being spoiled. Has nothing to do with background. In fact, I would think that if you never got anything like that from others, as is the exact same case with me, you would appreciate what you spend your own money on a little more. You've already stated that you blew the engine in a car you had just because you could. If we were both brought up in a similar situation, and yet when I buy something I treasure it, versus you really not caring how you screw it up as long as you have fun...yes, I'm going to consider you quite spoiled, because your mindset is that of "Oh I got a new toy, now the old one has no value, let's abuse it." Coming from the sort of family as you describe, I fail to see how you cannot put better value on the things you work hard to attain.
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Two people can be brought up under the same parents, same rules, and be vastly different for any number of reasons. Just because you don't agree with the way a person lives their life doesn't automatically make them a bad person.

You have no right or reason, whatsoever, to make these assumptions about this man's character based on the info in this thread.
 
J85909266 said:
Two people can be brought up under the same parents, same rules, and be vastly different for any number of reasons. Just because you don't agree with the way a person lives their life doesn't automatically make them a bad person.

You have no right or reason, whatsoever, to make these assumptions about this man's character based on the info in this thread.
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Amen. +1 to that.
 
J85909266 said:
Two people can be brought up under the same parents, same rules, and be vastly different for any number of reasons. Just because you don't agree with the way a person lives their life doesn't automatically make them a bad person.

You have no right or reason, whatsoever, to make these assumptions about this man's character based on the info in this thread.
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Spoiled doesn't equal bad. You are making assumptions yourself. Spoiled simply equals spoiled, which I don't approve of as a mindset/lifestyle, but it has absolutely no bearing on the personality of a person. It falls into the same category as materialism, namely as a perspective toward objects owned or wanted. You're right, it's simply a difference of opinion. I must have phrased it badly.
 
Spoiled absolutely has a negative connotation( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiled_child ). That is not an assumption. An assumption would be that because a person does not treat his material possession with the utmost care and respect, he is most certainly spoiled.

That may not be the case. There are people out there that are spoiled/privileged, and still very anal about their possessions and following instructions, just as there are people that have never had anything, but put little value behind many of their material possessions.
 
J85909266 said:
Spoiled absolutely has a negative connotation( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiled_child ). That is not an assumption. An assumption would be that because a person does not treat his material possession with the utmost care and respect, he is most certainly spoiled.

That may not be the case. There are people out there that are spoiled/privileged, and still very anal about their possessions and following instructions, just as there are people that have never had anything, but put little value behind many of their material possessions.
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Spoiled is negative yes, based on my opinion. But no implication that the person himself is bad. And you're right. All these opinions, including yours and mine, are subject to too many variables to have any factual superiority. Doesn't help that neither side of this argument really matters. OP will do what he wants, we will tell him why we think it's stupid or cool, the end. After that it just digressed into an argument as to why or why not a blade at that hardness would break when thrown. And now it seems to be digressing even further. When the mods get tired of it they'll probably close the thread, unless we continue to treat it as a tangential debate of course.:p
 
Why is this thread still going? I get the feeling that the OP is looking for little more than attention and a reaction.
 
My concern was that people were getting a bit too far from "I don't agree with this", and far too close to baseless flaming.

There's nothing wrong with telling him you don't like what he's doing and why, but are the attacks on his character really necessary? Let's not treat BF like any other cesspool of forumite culture. Educate and respectfully disagree, don't flame.

I know it from experience. I once received an infraction for calling people foolish in a thread about praising China-made copies of reputable manufacturer's designs. My intent was pure, but I was still out of line. This is similar.
 
We've had 8 pages of it. If people haven't gotten the message by now, they aren't going to get it.

Let it go and let the thread die.
 
The Government said:
If the myth is that this practice is abusive, then part of the abusive factor is the missed throw...
Maybe I misunderstood the myth you speak of.
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I may have to start a new thread on this topic, but the myth I am concerned about seeing brought to light is whether an accurate throw of a tempered steel blade substantially accelerates fatigue (we can leave out misses or keep them in as you prefer but i think it would be harder to collect data about the stress induced on the blade from a glancing blow and I am happy just working on good throws at this point). We've hypothesized how this might occur, i.e. rapid bend-stress oscillations along the length of the blade, even the equations for calculating the fatigue limit of materials subjected to such a stress have been linked in wikipedia, but as yet no hard data, no numerical values giving any clue as to the amount of stress that a (good) throw induces in this or any blade, and no limit value (e.g number of oscillations and the intensity to be expected from the established throw-value) for this or any blade. No controlled experiments, no science.

So for me, the myth put forward is that any knife hardened to the same Rc as an ESEE blade will fracture from the stresses induced by accurate throwing within a short span of time (e.g. the life-span of the thrower). With a high-speed camera and measured-grid to help calculate the level of bending in the blade and the frequency of oscillations after each impact, a mean value for the stress induced by the oscillations could be established rather easily. Have the user be an average male or actually get a collection of average users to throw the blade accurately (perhaps the most difficult part) a number of times to give a clean set of data points (minimize outliers). Now we know what level of fatigue is induced by throwing.
Step 2) Take a new, relatively unstressed sample (since we hypothesize that throwing induces rather a lot of stress, we do not want to perform the next test on the same sample), and bring this one to its fatigue limit in a controlled fashion or find a way to calculate/predict it by measuring some other attributes. Plug these values into the Goodman Relation linked in my previous post and present the outcome. Hypothesis confirmed or negated?

RemyKaze said:
@chiral.golim

I won't quote everything you've said, but you're obviously more familiar with a dictionary than with the properties of these knives based on your generalized rambling that seems designed to hide this lack of knowledge. You haven't actually offered any evidence to support your own claims, just a lot of hypotheses that make it seem like you want to argue the point in a long-winded manner in hopes of convincing others that you are right. And when all else failed, you resorted to "Oh well, Busse is better", simply because their warranty/representatives haven't said the same thing. Please provide some evidence, rather than a book.:rolleyes:

Again what he does is his own concern. Nothing wrong with doing what you want with a knife. We just gave our honest opinions of what will eventually occur based on experience, backed by the words of experts, engineers and knifemakers. You haven't backed your claims whatsoever. Seems like you're just struggling to make 2+2=5. And if you'd like to contact Busse and see what they say about the effect of throwing their knives/the intelligence of throwing said knives, I would love to hear their response.
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BwaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

*sigh* Wow. Useless post. Clearly you are familiar only with yourself, not with science or basic reading comprehension. You sure make a lot of assumptions about people based only on a few words that they've typed, regardless of whether you've grasped any of it. *shrug* Ad hominem attacks despite the lack of an insult. Whatever dude.

1) I haven't made any claims other than that no one has presented hard data to support the myth... which no one has (evidence presented, again). Someone PLEASE do. And no, anecdotes and hearsay do NOT count because there are just as many for as against.

2) An opinion with no education behind it is worth what exactly? Do you want my opinion on what size heels you should wear? The only "expert" opinion presented was robertl's, who guides us in a useful direction toward the means of proving or disproving the hypothesis. All materials have a fatigue limit, it is possible that throwing more closely approaches the fatigue limit of some materials than other stresses might (it is also possible that throwing does not approach anywhere near the fatigue limit of the material), and there is a way to calculate it if you have the data. So, does anyone have the data or the means of acquiring it? Make it happen! :thumbup:

3) Regarding Bussekin, nowhere have I read that they are liable to break from throwing, never have I seen one broken from such activity, and finally I have repeatedly read comments from Mr. Busse complimenting users for demonstrating just what their products can handle (and also what they cannot), offering warranty service for the slightest defect, and never have I read that he called a customer a foul name or demeaned him before others for his use, abusive or not, of one of their knives. So who is the better representative of his business and products? That makes Busse a better company (you asked, so there it is, and I'm not even that big of a fan of Busse). Want to ask me about BRKT?
I made no objective statement regarding the superiority of one company's products over another, because I have no objective data to present. But if someone else does, I'd love to see it!
 
I wonder how some of the nay-sayers on this thread feel about the gross abuse of multi-thousand dollar car engines in drag racing or NASCAR oval circuit racing? It's about entertainment, it's about fun. Yet there is a palpable aura of resentment expressed because someone has fun with a $150 knife and decided to share that fun with us. We didn't even have to pay to see it!

Geeze, lighten up folks.
 
chiral.grolim said:
I may have to start a new thread on this topic, but the myth I am concerned about seeing brought to light is whether an accurate throw of a tempered steel blade substantially accelerates fatigue (we can leave out misses or keep them in as you prefer but i think it would be harder to collect data about the stress induced on the blade from a glancing blow and I am happy just working on good throws at this point). We've hypothesized how this might occur, i.e. rapid bend-stress oscillations along the length of the blade, even the equations for calculating the fatigue limit of materials subjected to such a stress have been linked in wikipedia, but as yet no hard data, no numerical values giving any clue as to the amount of stress that a (good) throw induces in this or any blade, and no limit value (e.g number of oscillations and the intensity to be expected from the established throw-value) for this or any blade. No controlled experiments, no science.

So for me, the myth put forward is that any knife hardened to the same Rc as an ESEE blade will fracture from the stresses induced by accurate throwing within a short span of time (e.g. the life-span of the thrower). With a high-speed camera and measured-grid to help calculate the level of bending in the blade and the frequency of oscillations after each impact, a mean value for the stress induced by the oscillations could be established rather easily. Have the user be an average male or actually get a collection of average users to throw the blade accurately (perhaps the most difficult part) a number of times to give a clean set of data points (minimize outliers). Now we know what level of fatigue is induced by throwing.
Step 2) Take a new, relatively unstressed sample (since we hypothesize that throwing induces rather a lot of stress, we do not want to perform the next test on the same sample), and bring this one to its fatigue limit in a controlled fashion or find a way to calculate/predict it by measuring some other attributes. Plug these values into the Goodman Relation linked in my previous post and present the outcome. Hypothesis confirmed or negated?


BwaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

*sigh* Wow. Useless post. Clearly you are familiar only with yourself, not with science or basic reading comprehension. You sure make a lot of assumptions about people based only on a few words that they've typed, regardless of whether you've grasped any of it. *shrug* Ad hominem attacks despite the lack of an insult. Whatever dude.

1) I haven't made any claims other than that no one has presented hard data to support the myth... which no one has (evidence presented, again). Someone PLEASE do. And no, anecdotes and hearsay do NOT count because there are just as many for as against.

2) An opinion with no education behind it is worth what exactly? Do you want my opinion on what size heels you should wear? The only "expert" opinion presented was robertl's, who guides us in a useful direction toward the means of proving or disproving the hypothesis. All materials have a fatigue limit, it is possible that throwing more closely approaches the fatigue limit of some materials than other stresses might (it is also possible that throwing does not approach anywhere near the fatigue limit of the material), and there is a way to calculate it if you have the data. So, does anyone have the data or the means of acquiring it? Make it happen! :thumbup:

3) Regarding Bussekin, nowhere have I read that they are liable to break from throwing, never have I seen one broken from such activity, and finally I have repeatedly read comments from Mr. Busse complimenting users for demonstrating just what their products can handle (and also what they cannot), offering warranty service for the slightest defect, and never have I read that he called a customer a foul name or demeaned him before others for his use, abusive or not, of one of their knives. So who is the better representative of his business and products? That makes Busse a better company (you asked, so there it is, and I'm not even that big of a fan of Busse). Want to ask me about BRKT?
I made no objective statement regarding the superiority of one company's products over another, because I have no objective data to present. But if someone else does, I'd love to see it!
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As far as I can tell, none of your statements have any education behind them...what sort of scientist are you exactly? Can I see your credentials? You certainly like to write essays. I'm not sure why you are so belligerently intent on disproving everyone without any hard evidence of your own. Pot, kettle, black. You get the idea. You're certainly an entertaining read, but it seems like you're getting a little too worked up over nothing. Neither side has any hard evidence apparently. Calm down, good sir. And don't type so much. I'm suffering from a severe case of tl;dr.
 
OP, don't know if you're still reading this, but how do you throw the knife such that it penetrates the wood horizontally like that sometimes? Or even ends up upside-down? My thinking is that you'd normally hold the knife with the blade forward to throw it.

Makes me wish I had a backyard and random tree stumps around to throw my knives at. Looks fun.
 
Smoke, you have an inground cement-pond!?! I grew up wishing to skate things like that, rock on man. Also, what's with this "you look like a city slicker, you aint got no business owning big choppers!"??? There are TONS of people on these boards who probably COLLECT more than they USE, who ever needs a reason to have anything? Does my bro in law, who drives like ray charles, NEED a 300HP automobile? Smoke, please post more throwing vids, it's a lot more entertaining that watching people post pics of safe queens.
 
digdeep said:
I wonder how some of the nay-sayers on this thread feel about the gross abuse of multi-thousand dollar car engines in drag racing or NASCAR oval circuit racing? It's about entertainment, it's about fun. Yet there is a palpable aura of resentment expressed because someone has fun with a $150 knife and decided to share that fun with us. We didn't even have to pay to see it!

Geeze, lighten up folks.
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+1

I just started reading this thread and the OP had a statement in his original thread that was something to the point of a disclaimer where he would buy another knife from ESEE if he broke his.(it may have been an edit)

its his cash and knife and I hope he enjoys himself. $150 for a knife isn't nothing in the big scheme of things. Hell buy 3 one to throw, one to batton and one to keep for cutting and chopping
 
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