ESEE Junglas - Throwing

[The Government]

It is erroneous to continuously reiterate the fact that it is his money and he can do whatever he wants. We are well past that concept of freedom.

The OP's real challenge now lies in proofs. At first he just wanted our thoughts, but now he is challenging us to prove to him that what he is doing is abusive/ improper.

The problem is that he already considers his knife videos to be irrefutable proof that what he is doing is not abuse.

He will not believe any of us unless his knife breaks. His knife is the only science he will listen to at this point.

 

[chiral.grolim]

He will not believe any of us unless his knife breaks. His knife is the only science he will listen to at this point.

What science has been presented? I've read up and have been replying in this thread and haven't come across a single calculation of the fatigue strength of an ESEE Junglas nor one predicting the fatigue limit or even presenting a range of values for the stress level induced by throwing a Junglas.

What science? Present, I'll happily learn from it if possible, will probably challenge and ask questions and would enjoy the discussion to clarify this concern about throwing knives not expressly designed as throwers.

Thank you in advance.

 

[The Government]

I dont foresee anyone stepping up to this thread with a hundred Junglas knives ready to throw away to testing for specific data. -Because of that, what other scientific ideas or concepts could possibly sway him?

 

[stabman]

This'll be "sciencey" enough:

Higher hardness = more brittleness.

Lower hardness = bendier.

Bendier > brittle for the purposes of throwing.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I dont foresee anyone stepping up to this thread with a hundred Junglas knives ready to throw away to testing for specific data. -Because of that, what other scientific ideas or concepts could possibly sway him?

I am a scientist and I'll settle for just one sample. I don't need statistical significance, I'll give ESEE the benefit of the doubt and assume that their QC is perfect and that any randomly selected individual sample is representative of the rest (consider this an audit). Have at it!

To stabman, that summary neglects quite a bit about the properties of steel with different compositions processed according to different HT protocols, as well about the design of different knives. For examples:
In terms of "bendiness", BK2 < Junglas, therefore Junglas is better for throwing?

 

[stabman]

In terms of "bendiness", BK2 < Junglas, therefore Junglas is better for throwing?

Judging by the amounts of busted Beckers versus busted ESEE's, perhaps.
But neither are designed as throwers as you well know.
Just about every aspect of them is different than in knives designed for throwing.
The data is out there if one want to see it.
You don't want to though, as this obtuse argument is more fun than reality.

 

[The Government]

I am a scientist and I'll settle for just one sample.

Would you consider the OP to be the best person to collect this data? He seems to be the only one willing to actually push the limits everyone has described. I don't know how "scientific" this could be considered -with so many real life variables. What if he misses and hits a rock and snaps a good piece of the blade off? Does that prove anything?

 

[jaynick]

i love how everyone is getting butt hurt over him throwing a junglas. :yawn: its just a younger person rebelling with his own money.

seems most of the people are just mad that they cant afford to use a $150 knife as a toy. he already stated he wont be claiming any warranty when it does break(and yes OP it will break eventually, ive thrown and broken everything even carbon steel spring tempered throwing specific knives like the condor dismissal)

i stopped throwing things over a $100 simply because i couldnt afford it after awhile and the novelty wore off.

i still regularly throw sub $60 machetes. my current favorites are the kabar kukri and the condor barong. the kukris blade and handle are unreal durable. i throw it at trees surrounded by rocky river beds without a worry lol. the sparks flying from the rocks are nothing, its the vibrations from hitting the tree that do the most long term damage.
i actually tracked progress on hairline cracks before with my portable digital microscope. when you get a good stick it increases the fracture a tiny bit. when you clang the wood and dont stick it then it increases a few millimeters of hairline fractures. this testing was all done after i initially found hairline stressmarks on my 2 different gil hibben stainless throwing sets. carbon steel tends to just snap clean off without warning.


its pretty hard not to smile when you throw a large knife from 20 yards out and nearly half the entire blade sticks into the tree. quite satisfying.

 

[robertl]

This'll be "sciencey" enough:

Higher hardness = more brittleness.

Lower hardness = bendier.

Bendier > brittle for the purposes of throwing.

Haha, that's pretty awesome. He does have a point, 'bendier' materials develop fractures slower.

Does not the knife torque end-over-end when thrown, followed by vibration along the axis after impact? If my terminology is incorrect, my apologies. I have no problem with being specific and thank you for the correction.

chiral.grolim, "Torque" in this case would be if you buried the tip of the knife an inch into the wood and then twisted on the handle. Similar to a shaft on a motor, it's the rotating about that primary axis that makes it torque. The side to side, or up and down motion causes bending. It's not a huge deal until you start trying to quantify it, the equations for torque are different than for bending.

(From wikipedia) "...ductility is a solid material's ability to deform under tensile stress; this is often characterized by the material's ability to be stretched..." - Bending stresses cause stretching of the material on the outside of the bend... or is it only "ductility" if the stretch does not return to true? i don't know and would appreciate education on the matter.

That's a tricky thing to explain, most people think that if you have two identical pieces of steel, heat treat one and leave the other alone that you've changed the Young's modulus (E) of the material. E is what dictates the relationship between stress and strain (elongation), until you permanently deform the steel. But this isn't the case. So heat treating something to a super high hardness won't effect the ratio of stress to strain to cause bending, but it can move the required elongation for yielding (failure). So ductility doesn't mean a lot for materials that don't exceed the yielding strength. Its more about what happens to the material after it yields, if it is ductile it will stretch and narrow until the stress becomes enough to cause yielding (like a plastic). Whereas a brittle material just fractures and then shatters with little elongation. Most steels run up at high hardness ratings will be brittle, which is why they break cleanly. Materials at a lower hardness will not have fracture propagation as quickly as something at a higher hardness rating, as steel at lower hardness can deflect more before the cracks get bigger. (so during the oscillations steel at a lower hardness rating doesn't see any crack propagation, unlike steels at a higher hardness rating).

okay last one, before I go back to studying

"Fatigue" as described by "exceeding the maximum stress for infinite life" is very general, you might also call in "weakness". You might also postulate that throwing a knife accelerates rate of fatigue (moreso than, say, batonning) based on the stresses involved, but that would be true of ALL materials, including knives specifically designed for throwing, or you could transfer it to something like reusable projectiles, e.g baseballs or arrows - each has a theoretical fatigue limit for specific kinds and levels of stress. Heck, stairs have fatigue limits of how much impact and steady force they can bear before failure.

Fatigue isn't quite 'weakness', but you're correct on the rest. What you're missing is that once you exceed the fatigue limit, you can fail pretty quickly. So for stairs, you have to build them in such a way that they survive more than 10^6 cycles, which is a lifetime or more of walking. The same thing goes for baseballs, or the transmission in your car, etc. The problem with throwing the knives is you can have those oscillations happen very quickly, loading the knife several times a throw, so that 200 throws is 10^3 cycles and if you double the fatigue limit stress each throw, then 10^3 cycles would always cause failure. (these are over the top assumptions) So ESEE designs their knives to withstand an infinite number of batonnings, but not an infinite number of side to side oscillations. Idk if they actually take that into account, but the side to side vibrations are most likely the cause of these failures.

Hope that helps.

~Robert

 

[chiral.grolim]

Would you consider the OP to be the best person to collect this data? He seems to be the only one willing to actually push the limits everyone has described. I don't know how "scientific" this could be considered -with so many real life variables. What if he misses and hits a rock and snaps a good piece of the blade off? Does that prove anything?

No, I would not consider the OP the best person to collect this data (no offense to him) because I am actually trying to get beyond the debate to hard data with numerical values and I would guess that the OP doesn't possess the data-collecting tools required for such an operation.

What I want to know is 1) what is the fatigue-limit of an ESEE Junglas, and 2) what are the mean and applied stress induced on a Junglas by a man throwing it accurately.

Perhaps it will require two samples, one for each test? Hard data. Who's got some?

And please remember, without hard data to support it, Myth.

 

[chiral.grolim]

...(skipping lots of key stuff he wrote here, read his post above)

...What you're missing is that once you exceed the fatigue limit, you can fail pretty quickly. So for stairs, you have to build them in such a way that they survive more than 10^6 cycles, which is a lifetime or more of walking. The same thing goes for baseballs, or the transmission in your car, etc. The problem with throwing the knives is you can have those oscillations happen very quickly, loading the knife several times a throw, so that 200 throws is 10^3 cycles and if you double the fatigue limit stress each throw, then 10^3 cycles would always cause failure. (these are over the top assumptions) So ESEE designs their knives to withstand an infinite number of batonnings, but not an infinite number of side to side oscillations. Idk if they actually take that into account, but the side to side vibrations are most likely the cause of these failures.

Hope that helps.

~Robert

Robert, thank you for the corrections and explanations. Now get back to work! :thumbup:

It sounds like "ductility" doesn't apply (nor "torque" at least not substantially unless the knife is in the midst of a killer twist when it impacts and the twist also oscillates), with side-to-side oscillating bends stretching but not fracturing the material (plasticity) and so not exceeding the yield strength, so I'll go with "resistance to fracture" instead.

But the question remains, does the level of stress induced by the rapid oscillations occurring in a thrown knife exceed the fatigue-limit? How about in just the ESEE Junglas? If so, then let the makers state it as such instead of making blanket statements about all knives of similar hardness unless they have data and calculations to back it up. If ESEE designs their knives with knowledge of how many side-to-side oscillations they can endure, that's knowledge I'd like them to share! Let them even brag about it, because I bet that it is no mean value! But calling someone a "dumb@$$, plain and simple" for demonstrating the lasting durability of their product in uses it was not designed for and for which they have no hard data demonstrating failure limits... That's pretty strange marketting in my book. *shrug* But I am glad that they expressly request on the website that users NOT throw their knives for fear of failure.

 

[The Government]

If the myth is that this practice is abusive, then part of the abusive factor is the missed throw, and what the knife hits instead of the target. What about horrible throws that are on target, but do not connect as intended? It would all have to be analyzed and measured to attempt to break the myth; and there are so many ways to miss, and unintended things to hit, that would alter the physical forces on the blade. In every place I have ever thrown, I have had to at least deal with rocks in the dirt. Lets just hope the garden gnomes are safe.

Maybe I misunderstood the myth you speak of.

 

[RemyKaze]

@chiral.golim

I won't quote everything you've said, but you're obviously more familiar with a dictionary than with the properties of these knives based on your generalized rambling that seems designed to hide this lack of knowledge. You haven't actually offered any evidence to support your own claims, just a lot of hypotheses that make it seem like you want to argue the point in a long-winded manner in hopes of convincing others that you are right. And when all else failed, you resorted to "Oh well, Busse is better", simply because their warranty/representatives haven't said the same thing. Please provide some evidence, rather than a book.

Again what he does is his own concern. Nothing wrong with doing what you want with a knife. We just gave our honest opinions of what will eventually occur based on experience, backed by the words of experts, engineers and knifemakers. You haven't backed your claims whatsoever. Seems like you're just struggling to make 2+2=5. And if you'd like to contact Busse and see what they say about the effect of throwing their knives/the intelligence of throwing said knives, I would love to hear their response.

 

[Shawn7656]

i still regularly throw sub $60 machetes. my current favorites are the kabar kukri and the condor barong. the kukris blade and handle are unreal durable. i throw it at trees surrounded by rocky river beds without a worry lol. the sparks flying from the rocks are nothing, its the vibrations from hitting the tree that do the most long term damage.
i actually tracked progress on hairline cracks before with my portable digital microscope. when you get a good stick it increases the fracture a tiny bit. when you clang the wood and dont stick it then it increases a few millimeters of hairline fractures. this testing was all done after i initially found hairline stressmarks on my 2 different gil hibben stainless throwing sets. carbon steel tends to just snap clean off without warning.

Isn't this scientific enough for you guys? He tested it, with multiple knives, and tracked it with a digital microscope, thus proving it's not good.


It's more like everyone is playing devils advocate and not actually caring that there's sufficient amount of evidence saying that throwing knives causes stress and will eventually cause breakage.

 

[RemyKaze]

i love how everyone is getting butt hurt over him throwing a junglas. :yawn: its just a younger person rebelling with his own money.

seems most of the people are just mad that they cant afford to use a $150 knife as a toy. he already stated he wont be claiming any warranty when it does break(and yes OP it will break eventually, ive thrown and broken everything even carbon steel spring tempered throwing specific knives like the condor dismissal)

i stopped throwing things over a $100 simply because i couldnt afford it after awhile and the novelty wore off.

i still regularly throw sub $60 machetes. my current favorites are the kabar kukri and the condor barong. the kukris blade and handle are unreal durable. i throw it at trees surrounded by rocky river beds without a worry lol. the sparks flying from the rocks are nothing, its the vibrations from hitting the tree that do the most long term damage.
i actually tracked progress on hairline cracks before with my portable digital microscope. when you get a good stick it increases the fracture a tiny bit. when you clang the wood and dont stick it then it increases a few millimeters of hairline fractures. this testing was all done after i initially found hairline stressmarks on my 2 different gil hibben stainless throwing sets. carbon steel tends to just snap clean off without warning.


its pretty hard not to smile when you throw a large knife from 20 yards out and nearly half the entire blade sticks into the tree. quite satisfying.

Maybe some people. Others, like myself, just see it as more traditional to respect to your tools. I'd probably throw broken knives, and of course throwing knives/tomahawks, but even an old ass Tramontina machete would be restored and used as it should be, albeit in a much rougher manner. Different strokes for different folks. I'll use my Junglas to do everything involving cutting, hammering etc and even that stress will break it down, and then of course I'll trade it in after a long, long period of use. The reason I won't throw it is because I do have common sense, and that sense tells me not to be wasteful of things I've spent my hard earned money on. This guy is just has a spoiled attitude.

 

[smokeylovesmolly]

@ RemyKaze,

I would just like to see what else you do with your knives besides throwing them. If you go out in the backyard and baton some stuff, do some chopping etc, make a video and think you've justified buying those knives, that is of course your call. Most people, when they watch such videos, want to see the knife being put to the test, true. Not many people like seeing it misused though. Had you posted a thread with your opinion rather than trying for an attention grabbing video where you knew you would get negative reactions(since you seem to be intelligent), you probably would have gotten a better reaction. Looks like you disabled your comments on account of trolls...lol. I'm not sure what you expected. I'll give you the kind of comment you want:

Great job throwing! You only missed one time. I'm sure that knife will take that abuse and come back for more! If you ever need to stop an attacker/bear/zombie, now you know you can throw your knife at them and get away safely. Your skinny jeans and loose-laced shoes really help your accuracy and establish your credibility as a knife aficionado! :thumbup:

how in any way was this an "attention grabbing" video?

what do my shoes and pants have anything what-so-ever to do with my knives?
...i never claimed to be an aficionado.

i do not appreciate your snarkey sarcastic comment.

there is already videos of people chopping logs, camping with the junglas, and using it to cut beer cans and whatever else...
i thought i would make a different one and share it with you people.

i wear the clothes i wear because i'm a skater, tattoo artist, and i've always dressed this way.
you going to make fun of my "short" shorts? ...good for you.

some people don't have the time to get out in the back country because of work.
i am not a knife expert. i never claimed to be.

i just have fun with the things i buy.

you can call it misuse, but i have already supplied a video of a guy battening through wood
and having his junglas break with "normal" use.

like i've said, if its going to break ...its going to break.

if people want to watch a video of the junglas being used "properly" they can check out the other junglas videos.
if they want to see someone having fun with it, they can check out my video.

i would really like you to answer these questions....

 

[crom]

I just hope this smoke guy posts more vids of throwing huge-ass impractical knives. At least they're getting used in some fashion.

 

[smokeylovesmolly]

@RemyKaze

i'll ask it like this i guess..

how is this an "attention grabbing" video when i don't talk, or show my face?
when did i ever claim to be a knive expert or "aficionado"?
what do my clothes have to do with my knives or anything related to the topic?
why should i make a video just like everybody else?

....and further more, how do i come off as spoiled?
if somebody has money to get a pool installed in their house
then drains it to skate in it (which ruins the coping) ..that makes them spoiled?

if somebody burns rubber in their car, that makes them spoiled?

no, its somebody that has worked hard and has fun with the money they earn.

 

[The Government]

Yah, but skating pools is way more fun than throwing knives.

Enjoy your knife smoke. If it breaks, it breaks.

 

[smokeylovesmolly]

@ RemyKaze

my parents barley gave me anything, except clothes, food, and a shelter over my head (with the exception of birthdays and x-mas) but even b-days and x-mas wernt all that "glamorous". thats why i have fun with the money i earn, because i WASN'T spoiled. i never got to be frivolous with my parents money, that's why i spend the money i get on whatever i want, and use it however i want. i usually don't let judgmental people like you get under my skin... but it bothers me how ignorant you are to make assumptions about somebody you don't know.