ESEE Junglas - Throwing

uyotg said:
OP, don't know if you're still reading this, but how do you throw the knife such that it penetrates the wood horizontally like that sometimes? Or even ends up upside-down? My thinking is that you'd normally hold the knife with the blade forward to throw it.

Makes me wish I had a backyard and random tree stumps around to throw my knives at. Looks fun.
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I was wondering the same thing. I would like to see how the OP grips and releases his junglas to get that rather erratic spin? I'm guessing he may be holding the knife with the flat of the blade facing the target, rather than edge leading? (assuming he is throwing from the handle rather than the from the blade)

I love to throw knives, and I practice using many differeing grips and techniques. I have found that when I want to I can consistently maintain a nice straight rotation so that the knife always sticks with blade near perfectly perpendicular to the ground. It is my opinion that this puts far less lateral stress, and less vibration on the blade, though there is still undoubtedly a lot of shock still involved.

I've broken plenty of knives by throwing them, so I am fully aware it happens, but it is fun and who is anyone to criticise another for getting enjoyment out of something they paid for themselves?

digdeep said:
I wonder how some of the nay-sayers on this thread feel about the gross abuse of multi-thousand dollar car engines in drag racing or NASCAR oval circuit racing? It's about entertainment, it's about fun. Yet there is a palpable aura of resentment expressed because someone has fun with a $150 knife and decided to share that fun with us. We didn't even have to pay to see it!

Geeze, lighten up folks.
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Exactly. Not to mention all those folks who get a kick out of demolition derbies! I'm pretty sure those vehichles were not intended for that kind of abuse, but who friggin cares?! ...it's just fun.

Doogoon said:
People. Let. It. Die.
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Why do you keep posting?
 
chiral.grolim said:
You are joking, yes? What precisely is the "face value" of such a statement? Is it scientific evidence based on analyses of the grain-structure in his knives and repeated empirical trials supporting his hypothesis?

No? Hmm, then perhaps if the owner said, "OUR knives are likely to break when thrown," I'd accept that as a manufacturer recommendation, and not as an attempt at objective universal truth "knives break when thrown".

In short, NO, no one should take such an assertion at face value, especially when accidental empirically generated data overwhelmingly contradicts the assertion. Back it up with something!
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He both designed and tested his own products so in that regard I consider him an expert. You want some random person on the internet to prove something to you but you won't listen to the guy who designed the product? Okay then. Believe what you like. :rolleyes:

Edit: If it's a matter of not believing what a guy selling you something is saying I get it. However this is from a guy who would be more likely to recommend you a 6 dollar tram machete then his own products.
 
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Shotgun said:
He both designed and tested his own products so in that regard I consider him an expert. You want some random person on the internet to prove something to you but you won't listen to the guy who designed the product? Okay then. Believe what you like. :rolleyes:

Edit: If it's a matter of not believing what a guy selling you something is saying I get it. However this is from a guy who would be more likely to recommend you a 6 dollar tram machete then his own products.
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OK, I posted a new thread in the Reviews & Testing subforum looking for help with this.

To Shotgun, what I want is hard data to support objective assertions which have wide scope. Randall, besides demeaning his customers left & right, makes a blanket statement about ALL hardened knives, not just his own. If it were just his own product that he was admitting/positing a "weakness" about, I'll take his word, I'll even take his word that he tested the product first and generated data regarding it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the level of stress that any ESEE can endure is far beyond what most knives are capable of. But if another designer tests his own products with similar attributes to ESEE's offerings and finds them more than capable of handling the stresses in contradiction of Randall's assertion... whom am I to believe? My gut instinct - neither. Look to the objective data and let it speak for itself. To me, Randall is just "some random person on the internet". *shrug* It's not so much distrusting the man as it is distrusting the blanket assertion. Make sense?
 
chiral.grolim said:
OK, I posted a new thread in the Reviews & Testing subforum looking for help with this.

To Shotgun, what I want is hard data to support objective assertions which have wide scope. Randall, besides demeaning his customers left & right, makes a blanket statement about ALL hardened knives, not just his own. If it were just his own product that he was admitting/positing a "weakness" about, I'll take his word, I'll even take his word that he tested the product first and generated data regarding it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the level of stress that any ESEE can endure is far beyond what most knives are capable of. But if another designer tests his own products with similar attributes to ESEE's offerings and finds them more than capable of handling the stresses in contradiction of Randall's assertion... whom am I to believe? My gut instinct - neither. Look to the objective data and let it speak for itself. To me, Randall is just "some random person on the internet". *shrug* It's not so much distrusting the man as it is distrusting the blanket assertion. Make sense?
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Yep, makes sense. My thought on the subject is that there's no hard evidence because no one has cared to do it. They throw a knife, the tip breaks off, and that's it. No reason to go back and use some sort of device to test it empirically when you have the two pieces in your hand. I think if you want hard data then you need to produce it yourself.
 
Shotgun said:
Yep, makes sense. My thought on the subject is that there's no hard evidence because no one has cared to do it. They throw a knife, the tip breaks off, and that's it. No reason to go back and use some sort of device to test it empirically when you have the two pieces in your hand. I think if you want hard data then you need to produce it yourself.
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From the other thread I started:
From my investigations so far, I have come across only a general estimate confirming ...
... namely that the ultimate tensile strength of 1095 hardened to 60 Rc is around 300,000 psi, and that below stress levels of ~1/2 that there is no limit to the number of elastic cycles which the material can endure... IF it is structurally sound with even carbide distribution. But I haven't found any information on how much force is generated by throwing a knife into a target and what the average remaining force is left to vibrate the knife. 100,000 psi (<1/2 the UTS) converts to 70,000 Newtons per square centimeter... but how to disperse that force load on the length of the knife....

I found a webpage describing the average knife throw at a speed of ~50 km/h which calculates to <50,000 Newtons of impact force from throwing a 12 oz knife, and most of that force should be absorbed into the material struck on impact... Even throwing a knife as large as the Junglas (22oz) 50 km/h into a target only generates 87,000 Newtons prior to dispersion. How much of the force of impact absorbs into the material being struck? 50%? More? Less? With values like that, how is it possible that throwing a knife into an object accurately by hand EVER results in blade failure from a sound implement? Or are all these broken throwing knives the result of major deflection off of surfaces that reflect the energy back into the knife?

That's why I'd like to see someone do an actual measurement. Maybe I will contact that Mythbusters show on Discovery...
 
stabman said:
If Mythbusters is your idea of what constitutes science...
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The rest of the post went right by you, huh? You only caught an american pop-culture reference? That's OK, I'm sure you are not alone. :thumbup:
 
uyotg said:
OP, don't know if you're still reading this, but how do you throw the knife such that it penetrates the wood horizontally like that sometimes? Or even ends up upside-down? My thinking is that you'd normally hold the knife with the blade forward to throw it.

Makes me wish I had a backyard and random tree stumps around to throw my knives at. Looks fun.
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i hold the spine with the cutting edge away from my hand. i tried holding the handle and throwing it, but it just wasn't comfortable for me. i don't intend for it to land horizontally, thats just how it sticks
 
chiral.grolim said:
The rest of the post went right by you, huh? You only caught an american pop-culture reference? That's OK, I'm sure you are not alone. :thumbup:
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I read the rest, but it wasn't "sciencey" enough to convince you yet...so why should I care?

But you gotta admit that Mythbusters is not in the realm of actual science.
If you think it is, I hope to Hell that you aren't involved in the design of anything I use, ever.
 
RemyKaze said:
The problem comes over time. Each throw weakens the blade, kinda like if you jumped from a decent height over and over. Eventually it will break the knife when it is being thrown, but more likely it will just weaken the hell out of it so when you try to use it, it will not stand up to the same stress. Do you seriously own both a Junglas and a Busse and know so little about knives? Not trying to be funny, just curious as to what motivates a person to misuse such a great blade. Seems like your only reasoning is "because I can".
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Throwing this out there as someone with an exercise physiology degree, if you jumped from a height many times over time, you'd actually strengthen your bones and connective tissues. Not a great analogy ;) The body adapts very well to eccentric stress.

but back "on topic"

Nice throws.

Who cares what you do with your own shit. Are people really concerned you're going to break your knife and KILL yourself by accident? Seriously?

If I died sky diving, would you all cry foul cause I "did something too risky"

"why jump out of a plane, they're made to transport people, and land safely."

uhhh.. cause its awesome?
 
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Paul Z said:
Throwing this out there as someone with an exercise physiology degree, if you jumped from a height many times over time, you'd actually strengthen your bones and connective tissues. Not a great analogy ;) The body adapts very well to eccentric stress.
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Haha, I would kill for a knife that strengthens and grows over time. Sounds unbeatable.
 
Paul Z said:
Throwing this out there as someone with an exercise physiology degree, if you jumped from a height many times over time, you'd actually strengthen your bones and connective tissues. Not a great analogy ;) The body adapts very well to eccentric stress.
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As someone who does parkour I'm going to have to disagree. Ask anyone in the community (Americanparkour.com) and they'll say the same thing. You actually get small micro-fractures (apparently, just as you do with steel when it's thrown) and you'll injure easier and more often. My friend trained parkour for a year taking big jumps (7-10 ft consistently) then he broke his leg in two spots and tore his ACL on a drop that was only 6 feet - with good landing technique. I've shied away from almost all drops and have been going strong (but not too steady ;)) for around 3 years now. My only injury was a sprained ankle because I lost concentration on a vault over a 3 foot fence.

But let's not start another topic in this thread to fight about...
 
I know this topic has been beat to death but I think I have the answer.
Start a new forum called PETK (People for the Ethical Treatment of Knives) and post this stuff there:D

Kidding aside............is it abuse? Yes
is it his money? yes
bottom line, is people will do what they want but that does not stop others from having an opinion of there behavior. Have fun abbusing your stuff so long as your not abusing the warranty. When enough people do this then it causes the warranty to get changed for all of us who love ESEE products. You said you wouldn't and I respect that. Have fun bud
God Bless
 
To be honest, putting things into perspective here, there is only one person who seems offended enough by the OP's video to the point of being vindictive toward him. Everyone else either thinks it's cool or fun, or is saying it's abuse but understands the OP has the freedom to do what he wants. So the "everyone, stop complaining and let him do what he wants" posts don't really have such a large audience.
 
razorsdescent said:
After reading all nine pages of this thread i have resolved to buy a becker machax and use it to throw.
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This should be good, post a video too. Where's the popcorn....get me a beer too while your up.:D All the BH's will be here shortly.:D:p
 
Shawn7656 said:
As someone who does parkour I'm going to have to disagree. Ask anyone in the community (Americanparkour.com) and they'll say the same thing. You actually get small micro-fractures (apparently, just as you do with steel when it's thrown) and you'll injure easier and more often. My friend trained parkour for a year taking big jumps (7-10 ft consistently) then he broke his leg in two spots and tore his ACL on a drop that was only 6 feet - with good landing technique. I've shied away from almost all drops and have been going strong (but not too steady ;)) for around 3 years now. My only injury was a sprained ankle because I lost concentration on a vault over a 3 foot fence.

But let's not start another topic in this thread to fight about...
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"good form" doesnt mean proper landing capabilities. He easily could have been jumping too high for himself, think of it like people who break concrete slabs in martial arts competitions, that comes from *proper* incremental increases in micro-fractures and force applied to the skeleton over a long period of time. The thing is that these micro-fractures need time to heal. if you go out and parkour a few hours a day every day, you're going to hurt yourself.

Your friend took it too far too quickly, or had (as 99.9% of people do) muscular imbalances that, while his form was correct, caused him to land in a way that improperly loaded his legs.

I can get into specifics of how it works, if you really need me to.
 
Good on the OP!!! Better to know what your knife is capable of without it surprising you by snapping at a crucial time unexpectedly! Test your equipment.
 
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