Ethics of hunting ... should I learn to hunt deer?

T

TomFetter

Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Messages
1,103
I've been thinking about this for a while. Never hunted, and though I like the woods a lot, I've never felt the urge to go out and shoot trophies. Not my thing.

But, I eat meat. I lived in Alberta for a while, and got familiar with some of the practices in commercial-scale meat production - which are frequently pretty unsavory. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about feedlot cattle, or industrial hog barns, or battery chicken ... commercial scale high-density meat production typically involves some methods that would leave most of us feeling squeamish.

So, the options seem to be:
  • status quo - get over it, or make friends with the guilt
  • turn vegetarian - my wife's preferred option, but not the one embraced by my kids and me
  • make friends with a small-scale meat farmer who treats his stock well
  • grow your own
  • hunt
  • make friends with a hunter or two ... who like hunting better than eating venison
So far, I've mostly done option #1, though I've done some degree of each of the first 3. I'd like, at some point, to do #4 - but it's not in the cards for a while at least. I don't at this point know people who match up with #6, which leaves learning to hunt myself.

Eating hunted meat means that I'd know the animal had had a real life, and paradoxically probably died more painlessly than it would in the wild. White-tailed deer are plentiful in my area, and under relatively light hunting pressure ... and natural predators have become more scarce. And through hunting, my family and I would be forced to come to terms with the real cost of eating meat - something had to die. And our actual place in the food-chain ... omnivores.

Can hunting for meat be a sound ethical decision? I'm thinking so. Though that hasn't yet got me shopping for rifles and gear, I can see that the day might come sooner than I once thought.
 
Unless you want to go vegetarian, hunting, or getting meat from the ethical small farmer, is the best option, in my opinion, as far as internal consistency goes. healthiest meat, most humane treatment of the animals, plus, in the hunting option, you are helping fill in the pradtor void, which is a very important part of the ecosystem.

There is no zero killing method for preserving the wildlife balance. One predator or another is going to have to do the job, or the browsers will eat themselves out of a habitat.

Hunting then, is ultimately a very useful, "humane" method of preserving the balance of life in the wilderness.

When or if you become ready, you will find a boatload of advice right on this forum, for guns gear caliber selection, ad naseum!

Tom
 
I know people who fill their limit every year on deer and then give it away. A lot of these guys play football and softball and stuff too and to them it is just another game and the bag limit their score.

I personally feel like this is bad karma.

I usually shoot the first decent size buck I can see and then snag a doe too if Ms HD didn't get one too. I'm more into the meat.

I have this dream of when I retire trying to go say a year or 2 years on just stuff I can raise or shoot. Deer, goat meat, and veggies. I'd have to do without bread cause there's no way I could grow grain on a small scale(well cornmeal I could).

If I retire at the earliest possible moment (53) I'll probably HAVE to cause I won't get that much money anyway, but I'd rather be poor than live in a cubicle and drive 2 hours a day anymore.
 
gravertom said:
...When or if you become ready, you will find a boatload of advice right on this forum, for guns gear caliber selection, ad naseum!

Tom
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On the basis of some of the threads here, I've already been googling around regarding surplus Mausers. As someone said on another thread, there's something about it having already been paid for once ...
 
Ethics are an artificial set of rules . For most people they go out the window when real life jumps up and kicks them in the gonads . If we try to reason away killing then we hide from ourselves . Is there a father among us who would not do whatever it took to feed his family ? Would we actually feel ethically supeior if our child starves ?
 
What's wrong with antibotic and hormone laden commerical meat? What's good for the cow must be good for me. Don't the girls appreciate puberity at age 8?
 
Kevin, maybe you misunderstood. I'm looking to cut back on commercially raised meat because of ethical concerns. I'm thinking that hunting, responsibly done, is arguably more ethical.

Ethics an artificial set of rules? Uuuhhh, aaahhhm, that's a long discussion. Obviously, I'd feed my family by pretty much whatever means necessary in a survival situation. As I'm not in such a situation, I've got the luxury of being concerned about my prey as well as about myself.
 
The ultimate, most convenient way would be to buy from a small scale meat farmer.:thumbup: Most of the guys who hunt over here, sell the bodies to meat farmers.

Plus our meat farmer has a large variety of meats (we normally grill every Sunday from May to October and I have grilled Beef, Horse and Ostrich steaks :D). I'm not really into Wild meat like deer, elk and moose though.
 
You can do what I do. I have a friend that has cattle, when they have calves we put a few into the barn. Feed them well, they don't get alot of excercise,but aren't veal. When they reach a large enough size they get taken to the butcher. This usually runs about 1000$ for the cow and the feed and processing. Yielding about 800 lbs of meat, and all healthy and great tasting. I do alot of hunting, much with an airgun. So axis deer, wild pig and many others are often table fare. My kids don't like store meat and can tell the difference.
 
I don't personally understand this guilt. I see others suffer from it though. I've worked on a farm since childhood. Done slaughters both on small farms and at slaughterhouses. None are for the squeamish. If your wife can't stand the thought of eating animals killed in the commercial method then she certainly wouldn't eat anything you'd killed and dressed yourself. Its not pretty any way it happens.

Case in point. I worked for a small farmer during college. He knew I'd grown up on a farm, and used me when he needed extra help. Usually slaughtering time. We slaughtered chickens usually. He had a coup for eggs, and another for friers, which are young chickens. Here's the small farm process. You open the coup and grab the terrified, dirty chickens by the legs. Hang them from a tree upside down with a length of coathanger wire that slips around the feet. Cut off the head by hand with a filet knife. Allow a few minutes for bleeding out. Dip body into almost boiling water to enlarge the poors and allow the feathers to be wiped off easily. Gut clean and butcher the bird. Package and freeze. Please understand that by the end of the 1st round you are covered in gore and chicken shit. The smell is awful. Then do it again. His small coup held a LOT of birds. He ate meat almost always for free. He knew exactly what they were fed.

Imagine the process for cows, my friend usually kept two. MORE shit, MORE blood, MORE work in the smelly gore.

Even skinning and cleaning game is a gory task. And they don't always die painlessly. Some asshole hunters don't even chase down the wounded.

Guilt is overrated. Learn to tune it out. Eat meat. Its good for you. Remember that these animals get to sit around all damn day and eat for 99.9% of their lives. In the wild there is no such guarantee. Which are better off? Who cares, that filet is calling me. I want mine with a side of venison jerkey, some fried chicken, and a nice big plate of veal.
 
My troubles with commercial meat production aren't with the slaughtering. They're with how the animals live before slaughter. Not wild at all about keeping feedlot cows or hog-barn pigs so packed that they can't avoid living covered in their own excrement. I had a girlfriend who worked catching chickens for slaughter with the coathanger ... 1000 chickens packed into the one barn.

There's enough suffering in the world, without me wilfully contributing to it. I've been buying meat more from the small-scale guys who sell in the farmer's market - who are choosing to raise livestock differently, for much the same reasons I'd want to. I don't mind killing something to eat it - but something sentient (pigs are about as smart as some dogs) deserves to live first.

That's part of the attraction I'm feeling to hunting. You don't eliminate killing, but you do minimize the wilful infliction of pain first.
 
I understand your dilemma Tom--I feel the same way. We bought a bunch of meat from our neighbors farm because we knew how the cows were treated and what they ate.

But to be honest alot of the time we buy from a local butcher and I don't know much about the meat.

I'd also like to not add to the suffering. Interesting thread!
 
TomFetter said:
Kevin, maybe you misunderstood. I'm looking to cut back on commercially raised meat because of ethical concerns. I'm thinking that hunting, responsibly done, is arguably more ethical.

Ethics an artificial set of rules? Uuuhhh, aaahhhm, that's a long discussion. Obviously, I'd feed my family by pretty much whatever means necessary in a survival situation. As I'm not in such a situation, I've got the luxury of being concerned about my prey as well as about myself.
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Tom it is nice to speak about ethics while sitting in a chair . Got your feet up do ya ? L:O:L
It is my point exactly that the people who talk most of ethics are those with the luxury to do so . Ethics are the most flexible set of rules I have ever seen . Bent , bruised and broken at the whim of the person who finds themselves in a " situation ".

We can reason away any decision . As soon as someone elses reason for dealing with a situation doesn,t jibe with ours he is said to be unethical .

Reasoning is good and has its place . You would be atonished at how unreasonable I would become in protection of my family . You could not reason with me at all until the threat was eliminated . Be that threat hunger or an intruder . I suspect there are very few among us who would do less .
 
Ethics are personal, but there are broad guidelines men agree upon. Otherwise, it is anarchy.

Hunting is very honorable in my opinion. It intrinsically acknowledges who you are and what must be done that you survive. It is an event that should be considered as a rite of passage.

Past that, there is simply food and better food than some commercial interests.
Not all. I can buy great steak at less cost and hassle than the time and money spent hunting for Whitetail or Mule deer. Not so Elk.

>>>>>>>>>>

I'm not certain that most animals suffer in commericial industry. It is mistaken to assign our feelings to animals. Most cattle here are range raised until sold, in which case they are often fattened on a feed lot- the final end stage that may look cruel to some eyes. Gotta ask the steer though, if that corn tastes all that bad, despite the inconvenience of standing close to other animals in insects and excrement.

Anyway, these are just passing broad thoughts, Tom. Hunting is worth doing, if only enough to know what it is and what it is not.

munk
 
I didn't mean to belittle your struggle Tom. Another plus about hunting is the primitive nature of the instincts you use when doing it. Also the quiet and solitude, and self reliance it provides. I, like Munk, recommend hunting. I just don't recommend guilt.
 
aproy1101 said:
I didn't mean to belittle your struggle Tom. Another plus about hunting is the primitive nature of the instincts you use when doing it. Also the quiet and solitude, and self reliance it provides. I, like Munk, recommend hunting. I just don't recommend guilt.
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No worries. And I agree - guilt's overrated.:D
 
I think a good point has been made in that ethics are personal . I personaly don,t have any ethics . Moral highground is usually held by someone who wishes to preach to others . I state my own position and that is all . If you wish to hunt ethically it does not bother me at all . I hope the time comes your ethics are not put to the test . Eventually they would fail and you would reason it away . If not , nature has its own way of taking care of that . In an ethical manner of course . L:O:L
 
Interesting thread. If you can't find a local small scale meat producer who meets your criteria, you may be able to identify someone who ships such products to consumers. I did a quick web search on "organic meat" and came across several such operations. I'm not sure if the shipping costs would make this arrangement unworkable for you, but thought I would throw it out there as another possibility.

Eric
 
I didn't grow up hunting. It was something I wanted to learn how to do, so I did. I read everything I could, talked to older men who hunted, then went out and did it myself. I was wildly unsuccessful my first couple of years though.

I've never lost a wounded animal, but there were a couple that took a bit of killing. I always feel saddened when I walk up to the corpsel. I remember a bit I read when I was a kid about an American Indian hunter that said a prayer when he would kill an animal, I often do so as well.

Hunting, like all things, have costs and benefits involved. I don't think hunting whitetail is a financially smart move unless you keep guns already. You just don't get enough meat considering your initial costs, and the time you have to devote to the hunt. Somehow I figure that is why most of our ancestors became farmers and gatherers, and hunting became a past time. :rolleyes:

For health reasons I've never understood how come people who worry about pesticides, herbicides, oil spills etc, don't worry about wild meat. Where I hunt there aren't any real commercial farms for a couple of miles, but deer in this area are known for taste for corn, and we know what we use on them. They drink from farm ponds, and live where people in the past went to dump things. That scares me.

Sooner or later I will have the money to move out of the city and to the country. Sooner or later I will be able to raise my own animals, and I want to smoke my own hams and such. I'm saving my money, and really hope to be able to get something started before I'm forty.

As for morals and ethics take Maslow.
 
Kevin the grey said:
I think a good point has been made in that ethics are personal . I personaly don,t have any ethics . Moral highground is usually held by someone who wishes to preach to others . I state my own position and that is all ...
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You know, I don't think there are many bits of moral high ground - and certainly don't think I occupy one. Was not my intention to preach ... just to invite some input as I talk things through with my own conscience.

t.
 
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