Ethics of hunting ... should I learn to hunt deer?

Tom?

"Beyond Fair Chase," by Jim Posewitz. Your library should carry it. It's a rather small book and can be polished off in an hour or so. It's required reading for the hunter's education course in WA; not sure if it's required in your area. Read it anyway if you haven't already. It addresses most of your concerns.

In short: hunting is ethical if it's done in an ethical manner...much like most things, really.
 
aproy1101 said:
ROTFLMAO~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great to see you're home again RWS. This post is one for the books. But....

"Dogs a fine meal," from The Patriot.
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Thanks Andy, there's no feeling quite like coming home again.:D Eventually I'll either man up and get used to these 4-6 week hitches, or find something with a shorter rotation. It's sure great to see y'all in any case.

Lotsa interesting perceptions on this thread. Can't say I personally agree with all of them, but it's certainly interesting.

Off to eat a couple celery sticks and clean my trusty hunting rifle.:D
 
As a kid I grew up on a farm. I hunted, but am ashamed to admit that I did not eat the prey. Rabbits and squirrels. Just shot them. It was a way to get off in the woods and feel powerful.

One day I shot a rabbit and I felt bad. A few minutes before it was enjoying the sun and the beautiful day. I took that away for no good reason. I quit shooting game.

I DID keep shooting crows. They ate our garden. I did blow away a hawk that had taken several of my white Leghorn chickens. He actually had one in his claws and was taking off when I let him have both barrels of my 20 guage L.C. Smith shotgun. Unfortunately I got my chcken also, but we had her for dinner.

About 20 years ago I had a good friend who absolutely loved to hunt deer! He was always bugging me to go with him. I like guns. I have always liked guns. I lost part of my hearing to 44 magnum target practice. But I liked shooting paper. There is something fun in putting a hole in a piece of paper 'way out there.

So I went deer hunting! Carried my AR-15 with softnose bullets. I sat in a tree stand all day long from sun up to sun down. Bored out of my skull! No deer.

There was a squirrel who hated me. He spent most of the day barking at me and I couldn't shoot the little peckerhead (Southern word) because I would scare off any deer!

Obviously you can't talk. can't read. Can't listen to a radio. Can't rattle celopane to unwrap food. Can't even pee.

The next weekend he talked me into it again. This time it rained. Sheesh!

This repeated several weekends unilt I finally saw a two prong buck. About the size of a very large German shepard. My friend had told me to wait for a 4 point at least, but I was tired of waiting. So I shot him dead. We skinned and gutted him and got a little bit of meat.

Seemed a boring, uncomfortable, unpleasant way to spend several weekends.

Then he got excited about Turkey hunting. An aside, my wife absolutely WILL NOT believe that tom turkeys have a beard. She thinks they fall in the same category as a Jackalope. Thet the whole "turkeys have beards" is a massive male lie to "mess" with the females.

Anyhow he and I go off on opening day of Turkey season. I don't even remember when that is, but it was one of the absolute coldest days in the history of Georgia.

We warbled these little boxes and shook turkey calls all day long. The only turkey sounds I heard came from him about a hundred yards away.

We knew we were doing the sounds right because we had learned from a veteran turkey hunter named "Roscoe." He had made videos, even tie-died his own camo.

We told him later about our "hunt." How we had made the sounds that should have had the females come a'running and the males ready to fight --- no results!

Roscoe informed us that in weather that cold, the Georgia turkeys would be bedded down somewhere and not feeling amorous. As he so well put it, "When it is that cold, the Toms know ain't no hen turkey gonna drop her drawers." I didn't understand why they didn't wait for Spring. Do birds actually breed in the Winter? How birds have sex is a whole 'nother story! WEIRD!

But all in all, I think that the turkeys may be a bit smarter than me and my friend!

Ethics? Smethics! I just had some fine filet mignon from Costco! YUM! Freeze my butt off? Get rained on? Bored stiff? Not for me.

But the paper had better beware!
 
This about sums it up for me.

GodsCreatures.jpg


BTW if you're looking for tasty hormone-free beef, A few of the local (to me) grocery stores carry Uruguayan beef which is hormone free and almost exclusively grass fed. You notice it in the flavour right away. Maybe someone close to you is bringing some in.
 
And you won't get mad cow disease from grass fed beef. (at least, not yet)


munk
 
There are many military mausers available in 308 or 30/06. Several South American countries converted their rifles to those calibers after WWII. Spain did some also.

I just re acquired one, and am bidding on two others.

The rifle is the launching pad. The bullett does the job. I like military rifles as launching pads. Sporting rifles tend to be lighter, and more expensive. To me, the sporting rifles are no where near as cool, but that is my subjective opinion.

lever actions in 30-30 are cool, light, and effective. A savage bolt action in 30-06 is not expensive new. and will likely be accuracte and tough. Not cool though!

Enfields, Mosin nagants, swiss rifles, etc, all available, and hunting type ammo is available for all of them too.

There are options to mount scopes to these rifles, without gunsmithing or great expense.

I like the concept of giving new use to old, well made things.

Sort of a swords-into-plowshares thing.

BTW, Jesus did not fold when pressed. He kept his "ethic" when faced with worse than physical death.

I'm eternally grateful he did.

Just pointing out an historical example, with contemporary eye witness accounts to back it, of a man(and more than a man!) who was true to his ethics, even at the cost of his life. I'm sure many other examples will come to mind, if you all care to think of it.

Ethics matter.

They can be subjective, in that we must interpret and implement them as we understand them, but there is an absolute "ethic", at the root.

It is unavoidable.

Tom

(yes your honor, I contributed to the thread drift, but the point had been raised, and needed some further comment!:eek: )
 
I think Religion is generally frowned upon as a topic here so I wouldn,t go there .

I think it was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who wrote"Exceptions disprove the rule ". I am sure there are exceptional men who have done extraordinairy things . This in no way disproves that where hunting for food is concerned ethics become less important the more important it is for the hunter to kill . Any man who refuses to do something unethical to feed his family will soon have his ethics removed from the gene pool .

When push comes to shove there is no such thing as ethics .

Gentlemen , I respect that others may feel differently about this . I hope they never get put into a situation that proves they are wrong . I have stated my position and to blather on is pointless .
 
Hunter, non-hunter, someplace between...I would highly recommend reading the book "A Hunter's Heart-Honest Essays on Blood Sport". It is collection of essays put together by David Petersen, and these essays will give you a hard look at the issue and yourself. Worth the time.
 
If you're just doing it for the meat, you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons. Better meat can be had more cheaply if you look.

If you're just doing it for the trophy, you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons. A trophy says nothing for how it was taken.

If you're just doing it for your ego, you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons. You tell me the story, but will I believe it?

If you're doing it because you can, I believe that you're on the right track. We are predators. Killing animals in order to provide good meals fulfills an arguably instinctive need in at least some of us. We are built for it. We are programmed for it. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It is life. The deer doesn't hate me for killing it. If something eats me up, I won't hate it for doing so. (I'll be angry, but I won't hate it. This is life, and stuff gets eaten.)

Regardless of your reasons, if you're doing it right you owe me no apology. That goes for anyone here. (You do owe me the backstrap, though. Just because.)
 
When I was a kid and a young man I was strictly a meat hunter. Catch a covey of quail on the ground where one round from a 12 gauge would get the majority, go for it, get all the meat you can because you can't afford it at the store.
Being a meat hunter meant eating things that I wouldn't have normally eaten, possums for instance. Possums are some of the dirtiest animals around and they aren't choosy about what they eat, but like me they were eating to survive.

Later in life I could afford to buy my meat but still prefered the taste of game. I love what most people hate about game animals and that is the gamey taste, but that's just me.
When I got too where I could afford steak instead of hamburger I quit hunting and I quit for a long time. But I didn't begrudge anyone that hunted or liked to hunt, it's just that I had more fun and peace in the woods if I didn't hunt.

Then one day I decided it was in my genes too hunt, that my ancestors hunted and unless times were hard and there was famine in the land they hunted in an ethical way always giving thanks for the animal that gave up its breath that they may live.
Even during the hard times when they weren't so ethical they still gave thanks for the animal giving up its breath.
I started hunting again and enjoyed it and I hunted hard. But I never felt joy when I killed something for its meat and I did and will always still thank the animal for giving up its breath that I and my loved ones may live.
In my thoughts all life is precious. When we go to pick the plants we use in our ceremonies we always say a prayer and put down tobacco thanking the plant for giving up its life for us.
What I hadn't learned and didn't know when I was young and a meat hunter was that even though the way I hunted may have not been ethical the way I treated the animal and the thanks givin for it could've been....
Back then I was thankful that I could feed my family for a few more days, even if it was a possum. I suppose that cleaning the animal with the least amount of waste and keeping it clean was a matter of respect though, just never thought about it that way back then...
 
Most hunters could give you a break down on what it costs per pound of venison and it raises a few eyebrows. Hunting gives you a healthier meat. Organic meat or happy, pastured meat is going to set you back quite a bit. Best way to do it is yourself. You might have a back yard big enough for small time meat production. Probably limits you to poultry and rabbits. It will be healthy and cheap, but will tend to tie you down as your critters need care. Leaving for a weekend or vacation can really raise havoc with your plans. I'm currently knocking around the idea of keeping laying hens in my back yard. I'll let everybody know when I take the plunge.
 
I'm grateful for the very fine comments throughout this thread. Dave, Kevin, Howard, Yvsa ... and many others ... thanks.

Gravertom, while personally I agree with your example, a maybe less controversial example is William Wallace - whose character wasn't so far removed from how it was portrayed in Braveheart. As many have said, you don't know whether you really hold a principle 'till you're pressured to abandon it.

I think ethics matter - humans are animals, but animals with consciousness... which makes us responsible for our actions in a way that other predators aren't. We lose sight of something intrinsically human when we deny either side of that.

I'm thinking that a place to start is a local rod and gun club - and more regular patronage of the small meat producers who sell locally.

t.
 
My initial contemplation of the dillema you raised in your first post basically mirrors my own Tom. I began hunting at a young age, and got hooked after shooting my first buck. As a 12 year old, I wasn't too sure about the idea of shooting something else and cutting it apart to eat it. Then I reached pretty much the same conclusion you have; the only difference between shooting a deer for food and ordering a Big Mac is that you must take responsibility for a death whenever you kill the deer. Most people don't get that. They've lost their connection with reality and don't think about where the meat in the supermarket comes from anymore. Anyone who feels that they can judge anyone for hunting while wearing leather shoes and eating a juicy steak is a hypocrite of the highest order. I wish you the best in your choice on this issue. You're a good man for considering it with such care, if you need help on equipment selection for hunting we'll be glad to help. :)
 
Tom -

If you have never hunted you will find it far more challenging than you may expect. Find some other experienced hunters to go with and help you. Deer are amazing animals with superior sense of smell, eyesight, and hearing (humans should be half as good).

There are many methods of hunting. Some folks like to sit all day and wait for the deer to come to them. Some like to stalk and try to find the deer. Each style has it pluses and minuses. It is important to know what type of gun to shoot and how to properly shoot before you go hunting. You don't want to injure the animal and let it suffer unneccesarily. You must know your firearm, how it works and how far you can accurately shoot with it. This takes some practice before hand. There are some real cannons used in hunting that would be painful to use, especially for a new hunter. I would suggest a .243 Winchester bolt action rifle or a 12 guage shotgun. If you have been shooting for some time a .30-06 or .270 is very hard to beat and ammo is readily available.

If you want good game meat you must learn how to gut and skin a deer properly. It is a little hard at first (get a good knife) but not that difficult. I try to get the meat on ice as soon as possible, or if hunting in cold weather you can hang it from a tree with the rib cage spread open to cool it. These practices cut down on bacteria growth which will taint the meat and give it a "gamey" flavor. Good venison does not taste "gamey" to me. Sometimes I see deer that are shot but not gutted tied over the hood of a vehicle and wince. I can only hope they grind all the meat into sausage with lots of salt and spices because a long drive sitting on the hood of the car or truck is not a good idea.

Try it and see what you think. Again, it it as much a get together with friends as it is about getting some meat for the freezer.

Now if you really want a challenge take up bow hunting.
 
"The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan explores the health, environmental, and ethical issues involved in four different ways of providing food: agribusiness, large-scale organic, small-scale organic, and hunter/gatherer. Buy it or get it from the library.
As a retired environmental educator, I am very concerned with the health issues concerning feedlot operations and factory farms. I live in Alabama, where we have an abundance of whitetail deer and a very long season with liberal limits. Every year I harvest enough venison to feed my family all year, and still have some to give to friends. That is our only source of red meat. We also eat a good bit of fish that I catch, but I must be choosey about where they are caught, again due to health issues. In the past I raised rabbits, but as a previous post noted, you are tied down with their care.
If you decide to buy meat, I encourage you to find a farmer who will let you see the details of his operation. Sounds like you already have that option available.
If you choose to hunt, you need to find a knowledgeable and ethical mentor to get you started. That rod and gun club is a good place, just use the same judgement you would in other social situations. Avoid the loudmouths and braggarts who use hunting as a vehicle for self-aggrandizement.
One final bit of advice-- There is a lot of uncertainty with the accuracy of a surplus Mauser, depending on where and when it was manufactured, and how it has been treated in the interim. A lot of Mauser actions have been used as the starting point for building very good sporting rifles, but the rebuild (new barrel, new stock) will cost more than a new, extremely accurate Savage in a popular caliber like .270. But first, try to find a mentor, use a borrowed gun, and see if you really enjoy the experience of harvesting your own meat. Hope all this helps,
Alagator
 
Tom:

What part of the country or planet are you planing to hunt? The whole proposition can vary from one location to the next.
 
Tom Fetter,
Ethics are for people with neighbors so close they can't pee in their own backyard.
Before you tackle the "ethics" of hunting, consider your feelings of guilt when you shoot a deer in the belly and it's screaming sounds like a human baby. If you feel guilt when you buy commercially slaughtered meat, what are you going to feel halfway through the process yourself? Not everyone has the stomach to kill, especially if they have never hunted before. I am very pro-hunting, but it should not be approached lightly.
Buying a farm raised cow from a private farmer might be a better option, or take up hunting small game after lots of practice shooting and familiarizing yourself with the outdoors. Eventually condition yourself and family to eating hunted game. Tossing Bambi on the table of a wife who leans towards minimizing her meat intake seems like folly to me. My intention is not to discourage you, just be very aware of what you are going to be dealing with.
You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and I admire your consideration for other living things.
 
cliff355 said:
Tom:

What part of the country or planet are you planing to hunt? The whole proposition can vary from one location to the next.
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New Brunswick, in eastern Canada. We've apparently got fairly strong populations of whitetail, which are frequently in the 150 pound range, and not infrequently up to 250 pounds.

Most of the area is wooded ... it's alternately mixed beech/maple forest, and pine forest. Most of the deer population is in the Southern part of the province (where I live), in the St. John River Valley ... which has been farmed for about 400 years, dominant crops are now apples and potatoes. Within the watershed, there are lots of lakes and streams (very good moose habitat!).

The friend whose land I'd likely hunt has 160 acres of the old family homestead ... beech/maple mostly. No farming right around him, though some logging.
 
canineforge said:
Hunter, non-hunter, someplace between...I would highly recommend reading the book "A Hunter's Heart-Honest Essays on Blood Sport". It is collection of essays put together by David Petersen, and these essays will give you a hard look at the issue and yourself. Worth the time.
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If you're interested in exploring ethics and philosophical foundations of hunting I recomend Jose Ortega y Gasset's "Meditations on Hunting." It may not reflect many modern ethics but it is thought provoking.
 
Humans are hunters and we eat meat (and vegetables-fruits). From an ethical point of view we all have to eat to live. To hunt or not to hunt? The way I see it, the animal that was raised in the boring confinement of a farm only to be killed later has lead a boring lousy life. The animal I shot in the bush for the dinner table on the other hand lead a happy diverse interesting life when compared to the farm animal. by hunting we can reduce the need for more animals to be born to live out a lousy farm life.
 
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