Ethics of hunting ... should I learn to hunt deer?

Heya Tom,
Sounds like you and I are about on the same page. I very much prefer to kill my own meat. at times when that just can't happen, I've been known to take whatever moose or caribou I can get off friends or family, sometimes in exchange for work or favors. Incidentally, if you live in Alaska and don't at least have the OPTION of a freezer filled with salmon or halibut, you seriously need to carefully examine your lifestyle, and how you're treating people, irregardless of whether you've ever picked up a fishing rod yourself.

Ideally, when the wild game and fish runs out, I would like to be vegetarian, until such a time as I fill the freezer with wild game again, but..I just aint that strong, and overall do not believe it to be a healthy choice for my growing son. So...that's when I make due with commercial meat, usually from the local market, and free of all the nasty hormones and pesticides they use these days.

The act of butchering doesn't bother me. I've just plain never had a problem with blood and guts or feces from animals. (human feces did bother me on ocassion when I was an EMT) Hell, when I've taken caribou, it always seems to be at a time when I'm most hungry, and I wind up eating at the same time I'm cleaning the animal.

I just can't help but to believe that any living creature deserves better than the life they have on large scale meat production facilities. I also believe there should be a respect towards every living thing, and much of that respect dies when a person picks up a pound of ground beef at the grocery store, or drives through a fast food window ordering a #5 Extra Value meal.
 
Interesting thoughts, Tom. I've had many such similar ones myself. Some things that helped me come to terms with the cycle of life and death:

- raising chickens for eggs and meat.
- working as a butcher on a crab processing vessel. This involved taking the live crabs and killing them by breaking them in half, all day long.
- hunting large and small game.
- fishing.

I don't do that much of any of these things anymore, but neither will I shirk the responsibility for the deaths of the creatures.

It is good to look for the understanding you're seeking. I think you are on an honorable path.
 
Andy,

Your post about your chicken killing brought back some memories for me.

While in my early teenage years, I spent some summer vacations down in Puerto Rico with my now deceased Grandfather (on mom's side of the family).

He had a house, some land that he planted on, some chickens, ducks, rabbits, horses, and some cows.

Whenever we were going to have chicken with our dinner, my Grandfather would just kill one of his own. He had most in a decent sized coup, but many were just allowed to roam the property freely. It was not totally rare to have one enter the house from time to time, one just shooing them away :)

Anyhow, after seeing grandpa do the killing so often, I wanted to give it a try. The whole routine he used was almost exactly as you described it, except his method of the actual killing was to snap the chickens neck.
It involved grabbing the chicken by his neck and making that perfect twist of the wrist to cause a neck break.
He surely made the action look like an easy one. He would do this and place the bird on the ground to let the bird's body flap around a bit (exactly like what happens when one chops off their heads).

The time came for me to do it, I told Grandpa that I had watched him enough times to know what I was doing. I grabbed the bird slated for dinner and proceeded my try at snapping his neck.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.............. I must have not caught on as well as I had thought, since my inadequate wrist movement only gave the bird a bad neck sprain............ LOL!!! :) I put him down, he seemed to flap a bit, straightened out a bit, and ran for the hills! LOL! :)

Grandpa had to recapture the bird and give him the quick neck break that I failed to do.

I did accomplish the task on subsequent chickens, but boy did that first attempt get some laughs from all that heard about it :)

My way at looking at this subject of killing animals is that it's more than perfectly okay when done responsibly.... ie: done for self defense (to avoid serious physical harm), for survival (food), done as a legal sport (and the meat will be eaten), done exclusively for the meat (non emergency survival situation), or any other rational legal reason.
 
Ya' know, as an aside.....

I'm not sure I understand the issue of ethics in this thread. That ethics are a good thing, seems a no brainer. the fact that they become tremendously flexible during times of crisis also seems a no brainer.

As I type this thread my family and my pets are all healthy, happy and well clothed and fed. My house is sitting at a cozy seventy degrees, and we lack for nothing at this moment. (well...the animals are still in their B-day suits, but they prefer it that way):D

there is no need to run screaming into the neighbors yard with a large knife, kill thier wiener dog, drink it's blood on thier front lawn and, and steal coats and sweaters from the terrified children. As there is no immediate need to, I see no reason to abandon my personal standard of ethics.
 
TomFetter said:
I've been thinking about this for a while. Never hunted, and though I like the woods a lot, I've never felt the urge to go out and shoot trophies. Not my thing.

But, I eat meat. I lived in Alberta for a while, and got familiar with some of the practices in commercial-scale meat production - which are frequently pretty unsavory. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about feedlot cattle, or industrial hog barns, or battery chicken ... commercial scale high-density meat production typically involves some methods that would leave most of us feeling squeamish.

So, the options seem to be:
  • status quo - get over it, or make friends with the guilt
  • turn vegetarian - my wife's preferred option, but not the one embraced by my kids and me
  • make friends with a small-scale meat farmer who treats his stock well
  • grow your own
  • hunt
  • make friends with a hunter or two ... who like hunting better than eating venison
So far, I've mostly done option #1, though I've done some degree of each of the first 3. I'd like, at some point, to do #4 - but it's not in the cards for a while at least. I don't at this point know people who match up with #6, which leaves learning to hunt myself.

Eating hunted meat means that I'd know the animal had had a real life, and paradoxically probably died more painlessly than it would in the wild. White-tailed deer are plentiful in my area, and under relatively light hunting pressure ... and natural predators have become more scarce. And through hunting, my family and I would be forced to come to terms with the real cost of eating meat - something had to die. And our actual place in the food-chain ... omnivores.

Can hunting for meat be a sound ethical decision? I'm thinking so. Though that hasn't yet got me shopping for rifles and gear, I can see that the day might come sooner than I once thought.
Click to expand...

Tom,
I would love to take you hunting with me. Show you how we do it, how we care for the meat immediately after it is shot, the various ways we cook it.
How we do the complete processing of a deer or turkey ourselves.

I own my little 150 acres with Sister owning the adjacent 150 acres. We would be seriously over run with deer if we didn't harvest some of them. My kids as well as my parents and all of the immediate family usually have a seasons supply in the freezer. I never buy meat at the grocercy other than maybe some sausage and chicken..

Yes, we like to be able to take a trophy rack, but mostly think about it all from a wildlife management aspect. We try and balance between buck and doe, but hard to do being surrounded by multi-thousand acre ranches that aren't particularly into wildlife management..

But, in addition to the deer and turkey hunting, the family recreation is priceless. To watch my 30's daughters get into a shooting comeptition with the .22's, the grand kids playing on the 4 wheelers, and having the sons in law to help with the work,,, again,,,is all priceless. To have 10 year old and 14 year old granddaughters argue over who gets to go after the 10pt I saw, again is priceless.

Hunting is expensive. You can buy a lot of meat for the price of hunting if you have any negative thoughts about shooting an animal. That sometimes happens to new hunters. Especially the first few times a new hunter has to field dress a deer. Like most things, it is hard to start out on your own with no experienced help.

As far as that mauser you mentioned. I would seriously think about that.
Just a personal on my part, but I don't think that would make you a good hunting rifle. If you decide to get into hunting, evaluate what you will be hunting.

You mentioned white-tail deer. A .308 or 30-06 is adequate. I went the military rifle route in my hunting youth...didn't take long to evolve from that.

I know this is somewhat of a drift from your thoughts, but you may find it useful.

Larry
 
TomFetter said:
Can hunting for meat be a sound ethical decision?
Click to expand...

If I was a deer, I'd probably think it was pretty ethical. From a deer's perspective, option A) - being culled by rifle shot - is probably preferable to option B) - being pulled down and torn up by wolves. Not too many deer die of old age in these parts, and probably not too many elsewhere either.

One other thing you might consider is to call up your local Sheriff and get on the list of recipients for deer that succumb to option C) - improper road crossing procedures. Some of those deer hit by cars can still be in fairly good shape for those willing to come and pick them up on short notice.
 
Runs With Scissors said:
there is no need to run screaming into the neighbors yard with a large knife, kill thier wiener dog, drink it's blood on thier front lawn and, and steal coats and sweaters from the terrified children. As there is no immediate need to, I see no reason to abandon my personal standard of ethics.
Click to expand...

ROTFLMAO~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great to see you're home again RWS. This post is one for the books. But....

"Dogs a fine meal," from The Patriot.
 
Cliff,

I don't want to go too much off topic here, but would like to know where, what states, will let a local sheriff distribute road killed deer. Just haven't heard of that being an option in Texas. Parks and wildlife calls it a no no to salvage one.

I hate to see the waste. But a reciepent of such meat, would have to be able to process it themselves. A processing plant would not do it due to rules, least here, I don't think.

just curious.
 
I'm a proud member of alternate PETA - People who Eat Tasty Animals. :D I've never understood the whole vegetarian guilt thing. If I were able, I'd hunt - not for a trophy, but for the meat. I think that it's a valuable skill to have for the reasons already stated; I'd really like to get my boys hooked up with someone who knows how so they can learn. I like the idea of buying meat from a small farmer or a local butcher. At least for the present, we buy our meat from a store that sells the hormone-free variety.
 
A friend in the office gave me the best advice so far for hunting deer.

Stand in the garden at night, making the sounds of your most cherished ornamental plant. When the deer tries to eat you, slit its throat with a good knife.

t.
 
TomFetter said:
You know, I don't think there are many bits of moral high ground - and certainly don't think I occupy one. Was not my intention to preach ... just to invite some input as I talk things through with my own conscience.

t.
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If you think this was against you personaly Tom you have made a misconstruction . If this misconstruction was due to the way I chose to express myself then I will modify that behaviour .

Hunting is survival to me . It is not that I am a good hunter or that I could sustain myself hunting . It is in opposition to people who think their meat comes in plastic packages from the supermarket .

I have never met anyone I have talked to about this who when push comes to shove would not break their ethical code . People reason away this code by saying it is flexible when it is really nonexistent . It only exists as long as it is not put to the test .
"Oh well its flexible you see" ? when they wish to bend it around something in their way . One can reason away anything .
 
To hunt or not is purely personal.There's not right or wrong in it. Nobody thinks twice about keeping a trout; really it's the same thing. Man is an ominivore, with both incisor teeth for tearing and molars for grinding. You were designed to/evolved to eat animals.

A sense of responisbility is there: not to take more than you need. To not waste what you've taken. And since you are taking a part in the cycle of life, it's a good idea to be thankful for your meal. If you're not spiritual or care to do this, one should at least be thoughtful. Hunting should make you think.


Mike
 
Pack Rat said:
Parks and wildlife calls it a no no to salvage one.
Click to expand...

It is a huge problem to salvage one in MN without the benediction of law enforcement, but that is reletively easy to get. When you fill out the paperwork on scene there will undoubtedly be "Dept. of Natural Resources" on it somewhere.

If it is not salvaged it becomes a cleanup and disposal problem because the State will not just let the carcass sit by the road and rot. They collect them and take them to dedicated landfills to be "composted" which is a smelly and labor-intensive task.

Things may be different in Texas, but elsewhere if a guy has an empty freezer needing to be filled, it might be worth chatting up a local Deputy and finding out what the deal is.
 
In order for you to LIVE something somewhere has to Die.

Even vegetarians...that plant was alive at some point.

I take responsibility for the deaths so that I may live.
 
My buddy is on a road-kill pick-up list in New York . There is nothing like waking up after a hard night and still bleery eyed opening the fridge for some water .
Nope nothing like it at all if there is the mangled body of a still dripping deer hanging in it . I wondered about the ethics of the situation . L:O:L
 
Should you *learn* how to hunt?

Absolutely.

Should you hunt? Personal choice.
 
I have seen disdain for "commercial" farms or livestock operations repeated several times in this thread.

I haven't the time nor the inclination to convey my entire feelings on the subject right now. But it sure seems to me like at least some of you may be jumping on a popular band wagon. It's fun to bash 'em, eh?

Any livestock operation that expects to stay in business has the utmost concern for their animals' well being. I would try to visit my Grandpa in the hospital as he lay on his death bed... He would invariably tell me to get going home and take care of the cattle...
 
TomFetter said:
I've been thinking about this for a while. Never hunted, and though I like the woods a lot, I've never felt the urge to go out and shoot trophies. Not my thing.

But, I eat meat. I lived in Alberta for a while, and got familiar with some of the practices in commercial-scale meat production - which are frequently pretty unsavory. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about feedlot cattle, or industrial hog barns, or battery chicken ... commercial scale high-density meat production typically involves some methods that would leave most of us feeling squeamish.

So, the options seem to be:
  • status quo - get over it, or make friends with the guilt
  • turn vegetarian - my wife's preferred option, but not the one embraced by my kids and me
  • make friends with a small-scale meat farmer who treats his stock well
  • grow your own
  • hunt
  • make friends with a hunter or two ... who like hunting better than eating venison
So far, I've mostly done option #1, though I've done some degree of each of the first 3. I'd like, at some point, to do #4 - but it's not in the cards for a while at least. I don't at this point know people who match up with #6, which leaves learning to hunt myself.

Eating hunted meat means that I'd know the animal had had a real life, and paradoxically probably died more painlessly than it would in the wild. White-tailed deer are plentiful in my area, and under relatively light hunting pressure ... and natural predators have become more scarce. And through hunting, my family and I would be forced to come to terms with the real cost of eating meat - something had to die. And our actual place in the food-chain ... omnivores.

Can hunting for meat be a sound ethical decision? I'm thinking so. Though that hasn't yet got me shopping for rifles and gear, I can see that the day might come sooner than I once thought.
Click to expand...

1-I don't give a frig how the animal get's treated...food is food,and if there is "karma" it's on the guy who did the growing/killing not my arse.

2-Hunting for meat is the only way-you can't eat the antlers silly! :D I never liked "sport" hunting it's stupid and one of the reason's we have PETA :grumpy:

If you hunt meat,get close use a .223;7.62X39;30-30 etc and you have enough for many dinners! :D

All in all-don't get "ethical" on me,I think it's all bull....it's kill or be killed here friend get used to it!

Otherwise good hunting!
 
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