Ethics of selling knives that were originally modded for personal use

Kaizen1

Kaizen1

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Do you think it's ethical to mod a knife for personal use, where the mod is patented, and then sell it later on without getting permission from the holder of the patent?

The particular example I have in mind is the Emerson Wave feature, but this can apply to any mod that any patent covers. Say you wave your own knife for the purpose of using it. Later on you decide you want something else and need to free up some funds or whatever. Do you think it's okay to sell it outright, or do you attempt to get permission from Ernie Emerson or Emerson Knives prior to attempting the sale?

So there are at least a couple of points up for debate here. Some may think its unethical to mod the knife at all, even for personal use without express permission from the patent holder. I'm of the thought that one really doesn't need to get this type of permission. It would certainly be a nice gesture, but I wouldn't consider it unethical. Then of course we have the point of this thread. After doing such a mod, one then places it back into the market.

IMO, the phrase "Well, if you gotta ask..." is an example of shallow thinking and indicative of an absolutist perspective.

Thoughts?
 
If you do it once, it's okay.
If you start modding them and selling them repeatedly, then it's being a douche.
You can do whatever the heck you want to your own knife as far as I'm concerned.:)
 
i think it would only be unethical if you were making a profit off of it. i.e. selling it for more than you originally paid for it.
 
You can legally do whatever you want to your own knives, as long as you don't make a business of smodifying and selling the knives yourself. I mean I think it's ok as long as you aren't selling a ton of knives like that. If you do it to a personal knife and sell it, I think there is nothing wrong. If you keep on doing it, that is where you step over the line.
 
I'm not going to ask permission from a patent holder to take one of my knives into the workshop and modify it for personal use. Nor, for that matter, would I ask them for permission to sell one of my knives if I have performed some sort of mod on it in my workshop. Sorry, patent holders. :o

First, I'm not going to be turning a profit on the knives. Second, I'm going to be selling them for cash in a semi-shady back-alley deal, so unless the patent holder engages in that kind of business, I will in no way be cutting into their sales. Third, I don't generally mod knives with the intent of selling them. If I do end up selling them, it's because I need the cash. It's mine, dammit, all mine! :p

This is all generally moot, because I personally really don't like custom-'wave' features and similar mods which might become an issue for patent holders. Things like forced patinas, reprofiled edges, custom scales, custom finishes, etc. are more my style of mods.
 
stabman said:
If you do it once, it's okay.
If you start modding them and selling them repeatedly, then it's being a douche. . .
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. Well, except the douche part - I was thinking more along the lines of unethical and potentially illegal.
 
As long as you disclose that the original design is not your own (give credit to the original designer/company) there would be no problem. Why would there be?
 
I'll join in and agree:
Modding your own knife for personal use = fine, do what you like.
A one off sale of a personal knife = fine, no matter what mods you have done.

Setting up a business buying and modding knives for sale, not quite so fine. Well, it would be OK if doing a mod of your own design, but copying a patented mod and running a business selling that mod - you really should seek permission from the patent holder first.
 
I spoke with Ernie at Costa Mesa. He liked what I had done. He handled the SMF, Black Talon, and Police. Just so you all know, the few personal wave modded knives I have sold were at a loss, esp SMF at almost half MSRP.

Ernie only showed a hint of negativity when I showed him the Demko Navajah. He picked up a CQC16 and held it side by side and grabbed one of his staff and gave the "huh...?" of disapproval.
 
Charlie Mike said:
Ernie only showed a hint of negativity when I showed him the Demko Navajah. He picked up a CQC16 and held it side by side and grabbed one of his staff and gave the "huh...?" of disapproval.
Click to expand...

I imagine since Emerson and Demko both hold patents on knife "waves", there may be a bit of conflict there. May be the reason for any negative reaction.
 
Some mods might increase the value.

I replaced the plastic handles on my spyderco endura with orange G10 shaped the way I like. I don't know that this would increase the price but if I did it with something more expensive like stone or expensive wood then I might sell it for more.

It might be copying the spyderco handle design though but probably not a specific patent.
 
Kiah said:
I imagine since Emerson and Demko both hold patents on knife "waves", there may be a bit of conflict there. May be the reason for any negative reaction.
Click to expand...

Actually, it was the blade shape that raised his eyebrows. Demko told me they had had words in the past and "grain of salt" sums up his opinion. The Demko wave-plate is an innovation because it combines the wave and a thumbdisk. Sadly, Demko said he won't be doing anymore wave-plates because they are a PIA to make since they need to be machined perfectly for the individual knife. I talked him into making one more for my next custom, a folding kerambit.
 
i would only see it as a problem if the wave is used as a selling point to turn a profit and/or the modding becomes a business advertised as waving knives.

eg:

-selling a waved smf, not a problem.
-buying 10 smf's, waving them, then selling them for a profit, problem.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
i would only see it as a problem if the wave is used as a selling point to turn a profit and/or the modding becomes a business advertised as waving knives.

eg:

-selling a waved smf, not a problem.
-buying 10 smf's, waving them, then selling them for a profit, problem.
Click to expand...

I see no moral problem with the example you provided :D


...

Only problem I can see is the personal loss of $2500!
 
L.J.Tibbs said:
i think it would only be unethical if you were making a profit off of it. i.e. selling it for more than you originally paid for it.
Click to expand...

Have you seen some of the mod's the members here do?

I know what your saying, but you have to account for certain peoples skills, that is worth money.
 
Every patent application begins, "This patent teaches..."

That is the purpose of patents.

A patent requires that you disclose your invention to the public in exchange for a period of exclusive commercial use of that patent.

Ethics aside, you may NOT legally sell a patented invention. You may use it yourself, but you may not sell it.... unless you have a license of from the patent owner.
 
How many years until a patented modification -- such as the Spyderhole -- enters the public domain and anyone can use it? I've noticed that most manufacturers of lockblades have at least a few designs incorporating a thumbhole now.

Wave is a great design. Everyone should be allowed to incorporate it into their design, especially if they are custom folders rather than production pieces. I have seen "wave-like" things that are not technically waves incorporated into a few production folders, and either they looked like hell or just outright sucked.

Wave is an evolution of the folder, just as the thumbhole was. There should be more waved folders.
 
I agree that if you buy the knife then mod it with a wave type device it is most definitely an infringment on the holder of the patent, regardless of whether you do one or a thousand and one. A patent is just that, someone came up with that design, the second you sell it, you owe that designer more than a thanks and a pat on the back.

The Spyderhole, Demko Thumbplate, Axis Lock and Emerson Wave, in my opinion are all sacred advances in the knife world.
 
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