Ethics of selling knives that were originally modded for personal use

dalee100 said:
Hi,

No, that is called "prior art" and cannot be patented. This is a lot of what patent attorneys do is search for prior art in preparation to filing for a patent or to shoot down a patent.

dalee
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Patent attorneys usually do little to find "prior art" - it is not in their best interests financially:barf:. But that is another issue.

People are allowed to use patented technology for their own use as long as the patent holder lets them.

Also, don't confuse structure with function. In product claims, the issue is structure and function is given only as much weight as it affacts structure.

Personally, the ethics of using patented technology without express permission is a shady area that is dependent upon intent for me to feel "comfy". Is the user intending to gain financially? Also, is the patent holder financially capable of taking every little pissant to trial over the use?

Oh, yeah, remember that trademarks may not be functional features - as per the Supreme Court of this great nation. Unfair extesion of product patent protection ad all that.
 
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NDJeep said:
I understood your original post completely.
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Really? So making the completely irrelevant comment about taking off a wave was for what purpose? Clearly, removing a patented feature isn't equivalent to adding one. There's obviously no ethical dilemma there. The comment makes it seem like my question was as clear cut as your example. It borders on a strawman argument.
 
Charlie Mike said:
How about pocket clips? Spyderco was the first to put em on everything although I do remember a Buck 110 in Ti that had a clip.
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If this were a patent that was still in effect, then I think it would be a great example. One might argue whether we should pay homage to the originator of an expired invention. For instance, Spyderco is one of the few who still refer to the framelock as the Reeve Integral Lock. I think this is more of a matter of being courteous rather that there being some ethical obligation to do something.
 
Kaizen1 said:
For instance, Spyderco is one of the few who still refer to the framelock as the Reeve Integral Lock. I think this is more of a matter of being courteous rather that there being some ethical obligation to do something.
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I think they call it that ("RIL") because they want the hole to be referred to as "spyderhlole"
 
Kaizen1 said:
Really? So making the completely irrelevant comment about taking off a wave was for what purpose?
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Simply to irritate you. I see it worked. :D

Seeing you replying to every other post here its clear you have YOUR opinion on this clearly established. You've even impressed us with phrases like "absolutist perspective" when talking on a knife forum.

Kudos, that isnt easy.:thumbup:
 
NDJeep said:
Simply to irritate you. I see it worked. :D

Seeing you replying to every other post here its clear you have YOUR opinion on this clearly established. You've even impressed us with phrases like "absolutist perspective" when talking on a knife forum.

Kudos, that isnt easy.:thumbup:
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So it's agreed, you're trolling. I haven't expressed any position on whether or not I think it's ethical. Feel free to quote where I stated that I do or don't think it's ethical to sell a modded knife.
 
So-Lo said:
I wondered the samething when people gave me crap for waving a couple Yojimbos a few years ago.

If you believe A.J. Russell (And I do) the one hand pocket opening design has been around since the 1860-1865. :) (link here click me)


And a pic of one of the Yojimbos I did :cool:

yosopen.jpg


yosclosed.jpg
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That is, hands down, the cleanest/nicest wave mod I've ever seen done. That looks... nice.
 
Much respect! At first I thought it was a STR mod.
 
EMT_Lee said:
That is, hands down, the cleanest/nicest wave mod I've ever seen done. That looks... nice.
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Thanks Lee :D

It's was even better in person, if you look close you can see I blasted the blade yet it still has the factory edge :eek: (Yes it can be done don't let anyone tell you any different ;))

I also blasted the clip, but left the underside of the bump like Spyderco had it, that way when you pulled it out there was no drag from the clip being blasted on the underside. :cool:
 
Charlie Mike said:
Much respect! At first I thought it was a STR mod.
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I use to build custom cars what did you expect :D


:p


(Ok, back to the topic)

I don't see a problem with anyone selling a knife they modified for them. Most of us mod our knives to some degree... I reprofile and polish, maybe buff the washers and tweak the blade centering and lockup.

Some people do more, IE. cutting a wave hook... Where is the line?

I don't think I would try to define that line if there was one. A lot of us sell knives to get "new" knives, times are tough and most are not made of money, so one in and one out is how I'v been working it the past year or so.

Do I feel dirty because I sold a knife I reprofiled and polished the edge on, maybe tweaked the blade centering and/or lockup? No, should CM feel dirty because he decided to list a SMF he tweaked and overall lost his butt on?







Yes, a little :D

I kid, I kid!!! :p

The line is too blurry to draw between my tweaks and his IMHO :cool:
 
Kaizen1 said:
I think a lot of people are missing the point. The question already excluded the idea of selling items with a patent for the purpose of running or building a business. The question was specifically about mods that were originally done with the intent that the modder was going to use the knife him or herself. Can (s)he ethically place this item back onto the market without express permission from the patent holder?

Some people think one can do this, but one shouldn't be able to make a profit. At least one person said that one shouldn't be able to sell it at all, ie not even for a penny. And yet others said that there's a number of transactions one should be limited to before they fall under the category of douchebaggery.

Consider the follow scenario: Someone mods 90% of his knives with a patented feature. This individual gets into financial trouble, maybe foreclosure. He then feels that he needs to liquidate all of his non-essential items, I don't know, to feed his family or something. For those that hold the above positions, should he or shouldn't he sell this lot of items for as much as he can get?
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I don't see a problem at all.

Besides, the typical wave mod to a knife is going to significantly decrease its resale value. I recall when CM was selling a waved Chinook he kept lowering the price and it still wasn't selling.
 
So-Lo said:
I use to build custom cars what did you expect :D


:p


(Ok, back to the topic)

I don't see a problem with anyone selling a knife they modified for them. Most of us mod our knives to some degree... I reprofile and polish, maybe buff the washers and tweak the blade centering and lockup.

Some people do more, IE. cutting a wave hook... Where is the line?

I don't think I would try to define that line if there was one. A lot of us sell knives to get "new" knives, times are tough and most are not made of money, so one in and one out is how I'v been working it the past year or so.

Do I feel dirty because I sold a knife I reprofiled and polished the edge on, maybe tweaked the blade centering and/or lockup? No, should CM feel dirty because he decided to list a SMF he tweaked and overall lost his butt on?







Yes, a little :D

I kid, I kid!!! :p

The line is too blurry to draw between my tweaks and his IMHO :cool:
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I agree, that's a clean looking wave mod.
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
I don't see a problem at all.

Besides, the typical wave mod to a knife is going to significantly decrease its resale value. I recall when CM was selling a waved Chinook he kept lowering the price and it still wasn't selling.
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I agree that wave mods do decrease resale values. If Golnick's correct about selling modded knives that cover patents as being illegal, does that play any factor in your thinking?
 
VERY nice mod with tha Yojimbo. And there is one thing.

In such mod it is even hard to say whether such modification would collide with Emerson wave patent. Sure it servers the same application but it is in the different part of the blade, and as such I think I live along spoken patent.

And about personal mods. I don't care about law so much, for me I you do the mod for yourself it is ok, and you can sell such knife because it is your personal belonging not a business thing.
I don't even have anything against direct copies of complete knife as long as it is made FOR the maker of the copy himself.
 
Laws and ethics are two totally different beasts.
I stand by my take on the ethics, and the law can take a leap off a cliff in this case.
Can you tell I'm not a lawyer?:D
 
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