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Ethics of selling knives that were originally modded for personal use
- Thread starter Kaizen1
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"wave guru."
*snorts
I dunno if you are trying to insult me but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt.
I have never given myself the title of wave guru. Ernest is the only wave guru in the knife world. I agree with Tyr Shadowblade that the wave should be an option for every tactical folder. It is the next evolution. Remember the "one armed bandit" sheaths for Buck 110 type knivs? The wave IS the BEST way to deploy a locking folder BAR NONE.
Oh... Tyr... IIRC, the patent lasts 17 years.
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Were we discussing the ethics of the practice or just baiting people in here?
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I read somewhere that Emerson developed the "wave" as a thumb ramp, and accidentally discovered it's use as an opener. Not sure how true it is, but it's interesting if it is.
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Gollnick
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You can wave-modify your own knife for your own use. This is part of that "teaches" part of a patent disclosure. But you may not, legally -- much less ethically -- sell that knife once it is modified... unless, of course, you have a license. And you can't sell your services to wave other people's knives at any profit, even one cent.
The problem with the license is that once a patent-holder licenses one licensee, he pretty much has to license all other applicants on the same terms.
The problem with someone being aware of someone violating his patent and not taking action against that person is that in doing so he abandons his patent.
Oh, and Spyderco's hole is now a trademark, not a patent. Trademarks don't have a necessary expiration.
The problem with the license is that once a patent-holder licenses one licensee, he pretty much has to license all other applicants on the same terms.
The problem with someone being aware of someone violating his patent and not taking action against that person is that in doing so he abandons his patent.
Oh, and Spyderco's hole is now a trademark, not a patent. Trademarks don't have a necessary expiration.
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:foot:
Anyone with a high school grasp of English would see that I was correct. I said "it seems"...
If you look by my avatar and username, it says Knight of the old ....
F*** it... just got a email about this thread...
Nevermind...
You just proved CM's point for him.
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IIRC...
It first appeared on the ESM1 (looks like a Commander) as a blade catcher for use in knife on knife encounters. One proto was given to a SEAL. He told Emerson that it was a great knife and (blah blah blah blah) such, but that hook is bad ass! Did you know that it opens the knife when you pull it out of your pocket? Emerson tells the SEAL that he can grind it off if that is a problem. The SEAL prolly said something I can't say here but it equated to "hell no!"
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Ah, I may have been confused on the "thumb ramp" part. It's been a while since I read it and couldn't find the original article. That makes more sense.
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I had a Tiger Knife back in the 80's which had a wave on it.
It arose naturally from the back thumb-ramp/guard thing, and WAS used to open it...with your thumb.:foot:
If it had a pocket clip and tip up carry (it had neither), it would have been a fully waved knife.
It arose naturally from the back thumb-ramp/guard thing, and WAS used to open it...with your thumb.:foot:
If it had a pocket clip and tip up carry (it had neither), it would have been a fully waved knife.
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So is any DDR Maxx model. For it to be close to reliable, you have to grind down the flipper/guard a bit since it can also catch at the same time and prevent you from removing your knife from your pocket. That is why I ground that part off my high polish toxic Stiletto Maxx and my 1/12 DDR HD Maxx.
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Yep and people were wrapping para cord in Spyderco opening holes in the early 80's to open them the same way too! I was one of them after witnessing an ER tech at Scott AFB do it and asking him how he did that since it caught this knife nuts eye when he did it. I never did quite get it right trying to wrap my own Worker knife but it did work if you focused when opening it. Quite frankly the idea is not new or original as people have been opening knives kinetically in self defense since the quillion was put on the first folder equipped with one. The idea is very old. It is the devices used to do it that are what is new and its the devices that are patented not the idea. In fact the patent office says in their web site write up that you cannot patent and abstract idea. http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/what.htm
Queen Cutlery patented something similar in the 70's. but it expired as I recall in 14 years.
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=U...een+cutlery#v=onepage&q=queen cutlery&f=false
For reference http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...50&s1=7036229.PN.&OS=PN/7036229&RS=PN/7036229
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=5878500.PN.&OS=PN/5878500&RS=PN/5878500
The idea that any of these guys doing Wave mods are stealing something by modifying a knife or adding a device not covered by someone's IP and then opening a folder blade off a pocket even if its video taped is ridiculous at best. The idea cannot be patented. Its not a violation of patent IP until you are doing so knowingly for profit and using a device that is covered by the patent law. Do it with a different device and its perfectly legal. If you can come up with a different device that does just what these already patented above do then guess what? You can get a patent for yours too! If the device used is different than one that is patented then technically speaking its not the same and not covered by the law. Not the same could be argued in any number of ways if one were so inclined and it could be argued convincingly IMO that a cut in Wave on a blade done after the fact by anyone would be different if in no other way by simply the fact that no two done by hand would be exactly the same, done to different depths, and in different sizes and the hook would be in different places than the ones made that way to begin with.
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That made it worth it! I honestly figured a waved Sebenza would be the best practical method of attention whoring and then TheCarbideRat had to say something about wanting to be the first guy to wave a Strider. I couldn't let him pull it off.
Kaizen1
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As the OP, I can say confidently that I was talking about ethics and not trolling in any way. Seeing the varying opinions in this thread shows that this isn't some clear cut topic. The gray area allows room for discussion.
I wouldn't say that just because something's illegal it's necessarily unethical. It's certainly possible for irrational laws to exist.
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In Chico, CA... the penalty for detonating a nuclear device within city limits is a $50,000 fine. In Utah, there is a law preventing you from possessing a dildo within a certain distance from a church.
when i first saw a wave blade i thought of utility knife with bottle cap opener. lol. now i know many use it for fast deployment but its not my cup of jo. if i need fast ill take a kershaw or sog along. back to the original topic, which isnt about spyderco wave knifes , that was just an example i believe. it occurs to me that its human nature to mod stuff. if you make a mod on a knife that is funtional, the buyer knows its modded and has no beef with it i dont see any problem, if someone takes 1000 knives and copies a wave or some other patented feature from somewhere it could be at issue with the patent holder, but i wouldnt have an issue as a buyer. knife maker is making his money, likely that a modded knife wont bring as much as a new knife anyway. someone said spyderholes are a patented invention. someone might want to tell benchmade! lol
honestly i think most of the mods are improvements to the owners, not the prospective buyers. im reminded of a spyderco i recently saw on there forum that someone had put a bolt/washer setup into the spyderhole. yikes!! but he loved the mod, worked for him. dont think hes gonna risk a lawsuit if he sold it that way. custom gun makers often use particular guns to mod and build into customs. i dont think theres any difference in that or customizing a knife.
honestly i think most of the mods are improvements to the owners, not the prospective buyers. im reminded of a spyderco i recently saw on there forum that someone had put a bolt/washer setup into the spyderhole. yikes!! but he loved the mod, worked for him. dont think hes gonna risk a lawsuit if he sold it that way. custom gun makers often use particular guns to mod and build into customs. i dont think theres any difference in that or customizing a knife.
Law Officer: "Sir, be advised that you may not advance a step closer to the church with that dildo in your pocket."
Law-abiding Citizen: "But officer, this isn't a dildo, it's a thermonuclear device!"
Law Officer: "Oh, that is different, please accept my apologies. Just be careful; if it detonates inside the city you will be fined."