Ethics, price, value what does it all mean????

[R.A.T.]

This thread is funny....

Talking about ethics of Corporations, that's really funny.....

Not talking about the Knife Companies here at all, but Corps in general and US Corps....

The only thing they care about is the bottom line, big bonuses and keeping the Boards Of Directors living the high life while sending people out on the street ruining their lives and Killing our country slowly.

Profit at any cost.... Pure Greed.

We are a corporation. My greedy self lives in a double wide trailer. My partner lives in a run-down little house. We do our absolute best to take of our customers, hold prices low and not question them when they need help. Maybe you should start your own business before you start lumping all of us trying to do the right thing in with the likes of Enron. It is NOT profit at any cost when it comes to what we do. But then again, I wouldn't expect anyone who paints with such a broad brush to understand anything about Capitalism, business, taking care of your customers, etc.

 

[stabman]

But then again, I wouldn't expect anyone who paints with such a broad brush to understand anything about Capitalism, business, taking care of your customers, etc.

People often forget that not all corporations are the same size, or operate the same way.
Much like how people are different.
It's easier to put things into one pre-judged category.

 

[Ankerson]

I think this is a bit of a generalization (unless I am just taking you way too seriously)

Using the words Ethics and Corporations in the same sentence is the funniest thing I have heard in years.

And the biggest joke in a Decade.

 

[Ankerson]

We are a corporation. My greedy self lives in a double wide trailer. My partner lives in a run-down little house. We do our absolute best to take of our customers, hold prices low and not question them when they need help. Maybe you should start your own business before you start lumping all of us trying to do the right thing in with the likes of Enron. It is NOT profit at any cost when it comes to what we do. But then again, I wouldn't expect anyone who paints with such a broad brush to understand anything about Capitalism, business, taking care of your customers, etc.

What part of NOT talking about knife companies don't you understand?

And I even put it in bold both times...

I understand one hell of a lot more than you think I do.... And from the inside... It's not pretty either I can tell you that.... It's all driven on Greed, Power and Money.

I was talking more about Large Corporations, the ones who are screwing US Citizens over for so they can count a few more Millions. Taking food out of our children's mouths, putting Americans out on the street so they can keep their large bonuses and walk around playing the big shots. The same ones who have stated that they will continue to cut their headcounts down even when the economy starts to recover adding to the problem. The same ones who are responsible for the shrinking Middle Class in America and moving it overseas. The same ones who are causing the ever growing gap between the rich and poor and will continue to do so. When it keeps going in that direction there will be the Very Rich and the Slaves (The rest of us) once the Middle Class is gone. There are those who saw this coming over 25 years ago and we are heading there very fast to the end of the road.

They are also the same ones who force their Salaried people to work 60+ hours a week and their hourly people to work 40 hours a week and calling it part time so they don't have to pay out benefits. The same ones who continue to cut their headcounts working their people longer and harder for the same money all in the name of padding the bottom line. The same ones who know their employees have no place else to go right now so they are forced to put up with it. The same ones who hire a bunch of people then lay them off a few months later once their little projects are done forcing them to go back on unemployment for a lot less than they were getting before. I can go on and on and on......

 

[shecky]

Ethics are an exceedingly difficult thing for a consumer to measure regarding making purchases, unless one has some special investigative and psychic powers to assess the values, deeds and intentions of all involved. In the end, anybody who insists on making purchases according to their own arbitrary ethical guidelines is at best, shooting in the dark, unless one limits their ethics query to only very superficial observations that are probably obvious to anyone who looks. And as such, if one is really concerned about the ethics of a manufacturer, one has to accept that all that is know is what a manufacturer wants to be known.

 

[R.A.T.]

You're the one that didn't differentiate between knife companies that are also corporations. Besides, knife companies are not the only honorable businesses in this world. I just refuse to paint with such a wide stroking brush.

 

[Ankerson]

You're the one that didn't differentiate between knife companies that are also corporations. Besides, knife companies are not the only honorable businesses in this world. I just refuse to paint with such a wide stroking brush.

It's a very senitive area for me and a real hot spot because of what I have seen over the years.

 

[R.A.T.]

It's a very senitive area for me and a real hot spot because of what I have seen over the years.

I understand that very, very well. That's the reason our philosophy and attention to customer service is so strict within our own company.

 

[Ankerson]

I understand that very, very well. That's the reason our philosophy and attention to customer service is so strict within our own company.

And you guys do an awesome job at it too. :thumbup:

I know there are Knife Companies that are also Corporations, but I group them all together as they aren't the problem. :thumbup:

Just seeing ethics and Corporations in the same sentence makes my blood boil....

 

[R.A.T.]

We're on the same page

 

[Ankerson]

We're on the same page

I figured we were.

 

[lambertiana]

Ankerson - Having recently been laid off after working ten years for one of those big corporations, I can agree that there is a culture of greed that is hurting a lot of people, and many corporate officers are only interesting in padding their already large bank accounts and satisfying the investors.

However, there is another side to this coin. You talk about jobs being moved offshore to cut costs. But one of the major drivers of this is the intense competition from the cheap labor markets and lax regulatory environments in those places. Every time consumers decide that saving a couple dollars is more important than supporting the jobs of the workers that they claim to support, those consumers are part of the cause. And things like NAFTA did not do any favors for the typical American worker.

And let's not forget that the stock owners are very often the retirement funds that many Americans rely on. When those stocks go down, everyone is up in arms, and when they go up everyone is happy. But do they understand the consequences in the corporate world at the individual employee level?

All this is a reason why I support any business that is a good corporate citizen. There are many out there, and if I have a choice my money goes to them.

Hopefully this has not become too political. It is a complicated and emotional issue.

 

[Ankerson]

Ankerson - Having recently been laid off after working ten years for one of those big corporations, I can agree that there is a culture of greed that is hurting a lot of people, and many corporate officers are only interesting in padding their already large bank accounts and satisfying the investors.

However, there is another side to this coin. You talk about jobs being moved offshore to cut costs. But one of the major drivers of this is the intense competition from the cheap labor markets and lax regulatory environments in those places. Every time consumers decide that saving a couple dollars is more important than supporting the jobs of the workers that they claim to support, those consumers are part of the cause. And things like NAFTA did not do any favors for the typical American worker.

And let's not forget that the stock owners are very often the retirement funds that many Americans rely on. When those stocks go down, everyone is up in arms, and when they go up everyone is happy. But do they understand the consequences in the corporate world at the individual employee level?

All this is a reason why I support any business that is a good corporate citizen. There are many out there, and if I have a choice my money goes to them.

Hopefully this has not become too political. It is a complicated and emotional issue.

That's all it is really, Pure Greed and lust for more money and they don't care what it takes to get more of it. Yes it is killing our country.

The problem I think is even if they did understand it they wouldn't care as long as they get their money. Millions of people could go hungry and they wouldn't even blink an eye. I doubt they can connect the dots as most people live in their own little bubbles.

A lot the problem with the system is the stock market IMO.... Not going too deep into that though.

Another huge issue is our Government feeding the problems and letting the Corporations get away with it for far too long.

 

[richarjs]

after reading this thread, i'm looking forward to getting my first esee knife.

 

[axtalan0]

Hi Axtalano,

Do you really believe that all of the knife companies that you purchase knives from are unethical?

sal

Sal, I know who you are, I love Spyderco products, so please don't take this as an attack, but yes, I do believe that most if not all corporations, knife industry included, engage in unethical practices. Sometimes said unethical practices are legal, often times they are not, and corporations hardly ever care one way or the other (until they get a slap on the wrist.)

There may be a handful of companies that are the exceptions, but why on Earth would one industry be different by virtue of what product it manufactures?

Please consider: what we have seen in these last 2 years, more blatantly than ever before (at least in my lifetime) is that corporations will put their own interests above the public good more often than not, and what real consequences that leads to for the average person (see financial meltdown, oil spill, big pharma outright lying about the efficacy of many of their medications, while trying to hide and actively suppress dangerous side-effects, Supreme Court ruling that corporations have the same right to finance elections that a person does and the inherent inequality of that, a corporate media that keeps the public uninformed about real issues that directly effect them, telecom companies who are trying to lobby hard as possible to end net neutrality, etc, etc, etc) This is nothing new, of course (see the savings & loan scandal from the 80s, the unrelenting outsourcing of the last 30 years, Enron, the complete acceptance and encouragement of that form of modern slavery known as the 'sweat shop', tobacco companies downplaying or denying the harm nicotine causes, and targeting teens with their advertising, Monsanto's war against the poorest 3rd world farmers, the greatest transfer of wealth from lower and middle class to billionaires in history that is our military/industrial complex, etc, etc).

We, as a society, for whatever reason, allow and expect 'big business' to engage in harmful, destructive practices. I hope to see that change.

 

[Ankerson]

We, as a society, for whatever reason, allow and expect 'big business' to engage in harmful, destructive practices. I hope to see that change.

I don't think most people know or understand what's really going on and most of those who really do know really don't care.

Most people live in their own little world so anything outside of that they don't see unless they are forced to.

The Corporations have gotten way too powerful and for the most part control the Government and the Media so they can do just about anything they want to feed their Greed and lust for power and money.

It will continue to get worse until something major happens to stop it.

 

[R.A.T.]

I'm sure that are a lot companies that cook the books or engage in unethical practices, but there are exceptions to that rule. There are companies who believe honesty and integrity come before $$$ every time. We, as a corporation and knife company, use a CPA firm to do our taxes. Why? Because we believe in following the rules and paying every dime we owe as a company. Don't get me wrong. I don't like having to pay taxes anymore than any other person, but it is the law and we will follow it exactly.

As long as a company does what is moral, ethical, legal and takes care of their employees and customers then I have no problem with them making as much money as they can. Problem is once you get in this game you are sometimes forced to play with bottom feeders. We have to hire attorneys from time to time because of trademark issues, patents we are working on, etc. My point is, the REASON we have to hire attorneys is because of unethical businesses that will try to hurt us if we don't. The big guy with more $$ will simply outspend you until you give in and quit or can no longer afford to fight the issue. That's the shame in the whole matter. A small company like ours, who lives by honor and integrity is sometimes forced to get in the trenches to defend itself. In the end, I'm not sure how long small, ethical, honest businesses can last because the larger corporations will do their dead level best to consume them, one way or the other. Am I speaking from experience? You bet. But I won't go there. Lets just say it has shaded my opinion of "honor" and has turned ESEE into a company that will go way above and beyond to take care of their customer. In the end, all we have is our reputation with the customer and those who work for us, be it a vendor or employee. That's all that matters to us as long as we can pay our bills.

 

[shunsui]

A couple of great little movies.

http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron:_The_Smartest_Guys_in_the_Room

 

[Ankerson]

I'm sure that are a lot companies that cook the books or engage in unethical practices, but there are exceptions to that rule. There are companies who believe honesty and integrity come before $$$ every time. We, as a corporation and knife company, use a CPA firm to do our taxes. Why? Because we believe in following the rules and paying every dime we owe as a company. Don't get me wrong. I don't like having to pay taxes anymore than any other person, but it is the law and we will follow it exactly.

As long as a company does what is moral, ethical, legal and takes care of their employees and customers then I have no problem with them making as much money as they can. Problem is once you get in this game you are sometimes forced to play with bottom feeders. We have to hire attorneys from time to time because of trademark issues, patents we are working on, etc. My point is, the REASON we have to hire attorneys is because of unethical businesses that will try to hurt us if we don't. The big guy with more $$ will simply outspend you until you give in and quit or can no longer afford to fight the issue. That's the shame in the whole matter. A small company like ours, who lives by honor and integrity is sometimes forced to get in the trenches to defend itself. In the end, I'm not sure how long small, ethical, honest businesses can last because the larger corporations will do their dead level best to consume them, one way or the other. Am I speaking from experience? You bet. But I won't go there. Lets just say it has shaded my opinion of "honor" and has turned ESEE into a company that will go way above and beyond to take care of their customer. In the end, all we have is our reputation with the customer and those who work for us, be it a vendor or employee. That's all that matters to us as long as we can pay our bills.

Yep. :thumbup:

I bolded my part of it, think about how bad it is for someone like me who has good ethics and how easy it is for them to stomp on people like me.

Even with some of the so call good ones it's pretty much impossible to get past their HR departments and Managers who hire because they don't want people they feel are too old and or ones who might threaten their jobs. They won't hire someone who knows more than they do or could end up taking their job even if they don't want it.

Try being in your mid 40's looking for a job with a good Corporation these days, too much experience and knowledge is a brick wall. The HR departments won't even talk to us.

 

[R.A.T.]

Yep. :thumbup:

I bolded my part of it, think about how bad it is for someone like me who has good ethics and how easy it is for them to stomp on people like me.

Even with some of the so call good ones it's pretty much impossible to get past their HR departments and Managers who hire because they don't want people they feel are too old and or ones who might threaten their jobs. They won't hire someone who knows more than they do or could end up taking their job even if they don't want it.

Try being in your mid 40's looking for a job with a good Corporation these days, too much experience and knowledge is a brick wall. The HR departments won't even talk to us.

That's the point right there (bold above). Anytime someone has any intelligence it is no longer recognized because of fear of competition. Nowadays, companies promote the dumbasses because it's safer. Promote a smart man and you may lose your job to him/her. I have seen this time and time again with some of the companies I worked for before getting in the knife biz. Screw up, move up.