Ethics, price, value what does it all mean????

That's the point right there (bold above). Anytime someone has any intelligence it is no longer recognized because of fear of competition. Nowadays, companies promote the dumbasses because it's safer. Promote a smart man and you may lose your job to him/her. I have seen this time and time again with some of the companies I worked for before getting in the knife biz. Screw up, move up.

You can understand why people like me have such a hard time. ;)

They don't want anyone with good work ethics, brains or experience...

All I ever wanted was a good job that I could work at and go home at the end of the day and not think about it knowing I would be there for a long time as long as I worked hard......

That has never happened.....
 
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The girl we have working for us doing all of our office work is a prime example of how corporations fail to recognize or reward intelligence and hard work. She literally made a multi-million dollar company a lot of their money by fixing a ton of internal problems in the way they did things. She did this for several years while the plant manager took all the credit. We finally convinced her to come to work for us. We pay her very well and allow her the freedom of a relaxed work environment and the ability to create and grow as much as she wants. She has done wonders for our company in the last year. The amount we pay her (way higher than typical scale in these parts) is nothing compared to what she has done for this company. Point is if you hire intelligent people and pay them what they're truly worth, then the amount you pay them is returned ten fold in the long run.
 
The girl we have working for us doing all of our office work is a prime example of how corporations fail to recognize or reward intelligence and hard work. She literally made a multi-million dollar company a lot of their money by fixing a ton of internal problems in the way they did things. She did this for several years while the plant manager took all the credit. We finally convinced her to come to work for us. We pay her very well and allow her the freedom of a relaxed work environment and the ability to create and grow as much as she wants. She has done wonders for our company in the last year. The amount we pay her (way higher than typical scale in these parts) is nothing compared to what she has done for this company. Point is if you hire intelligent people and pay them what they're truly worth, then the amount you pay them is returned ten fold in the long run.


Well I was the best at what I did at a number of jobs I had in the past and all of them ended up the same way with me on the unemployment line.

When you are too good they get rid of you quick because you make others look bad.

I even had one Company tell me I couldn't do the job anymore that I was doing for 3 years (And the best in my group and trained most of them) because I didn't have a BA.

That was a Major Corporation.

Yep, back on the soup line again.....
 
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Well I was the best at what I did at a number of jobs I had in the past and all of them ended up the same way with me on the unemployment line.

When you are too good they get rid of you quick because you make others look bad.

I even had one Company tell me I couldn't do the job anymore that I was doing for 3 years (And the best in my group and trained most of them) because I didn't have a BA.

That was a Major Corporation.

Yep, back on the soup line again.....

Here's what I have learned: when one door closes another one opens even though we sometimes don't see it immediately. Use your intelligence, motivation and skills to make things work for you instead of waiting for someone to allow them to be unleashed. No matter the siutaion I simply refuse to allow anyone or anything to have a lease on my mind and potential. I stumbled into the knife business because of that. It was the best stumble I've ever made.
 
Here's what I have learned: when one door closes another one opens even though we sometimes don't see it immediately. Use your intelligence, motivation and skills to make things work for you instead of waiting for someone to allow them to be unleashed. No matter the siutaion I simply refuse to allow anyone or anything to have a lease on my mind and potential. I stumbled into the knife business because of that. It was the best stumble I've ever made.

That is so true. :thumbup:

I can start something completely new that I never did before and learn it extremely fast, been there, done that a number of times and have the T-Shirts.

The only problem is getting in the door past all the HR BS etc....
 
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Sal, I know who you are, I love Spyderco products, so please don't take this as an attack, but yes, I do believe that most if not all corporations, knife industry included, engage in unethical practices. Sometimes said unethical practices are legal, often times they are not, and corporations hardly ever care one way or the other (until they get a slap on the wrist.)

There may be a handful of companies that are the exceptions, but why on Earth would one industry be different by virtue of what product it manufactures?

Please consider: what we have seen in these last 2 years, more blatantly than ever before (at least in my lifetime) is that corporations will put their own interests above the public good more often than not, and what real consequences that leads to for the average person (see financial meltdown, oil spill, big pharma outright lying about the efficacy of many of their medications, while trying to hide and actively suppress dangerous side-effects, Supreme Court ruling that corporations have the same right to finance elections that a person does and the inherent inequality of that, a corporate media that keeps the public uninformed about real issues that directly effect them, telecom companies who are trying to lobby hard as possible to end net neutrality, etc, etc, etc) This is nothing new, of course (see the savings & loan scandal from the 80s, the unrelenting outsourcing of the last 30 years, Enron, the complete acceptance and encouragement of that form of modern slavery known as the 'sweat shop', tobacco companies downplaying or denying the harm nicotine causes, and targeting teens with their advertising, Monsanto's war against the poorest 3rd world farmers, the greatest transfer of wealth from lower and middle class to billionaires in history that is our military/industrial complex, etc, etc).

We, as a society, for whatever reason, allow and expect 'big business' to engage in harmful, destructive practices. I hope to see that change.

Hi AxtalanO,

I think it's a shame that you feel that way. It's not good for the soul.

While I cannot speak for other knife companies, in defense, I would like to say that we are a small family owned corporation that takes pride and gains our satisfaction in our ethical and moral standards, both in our products and practices. We are certainly not perfect, but we always extend our best effort to conduct business in an honest, fair and proper manner.

With regards to the "evil" that you and other see, I have always felt that if you want a "better" world, you need to begin by being a "better" person. Then the world will be better by at least a factor of one. You teach your family and friends by example.

Not "permitting" or "allowing" others to be be greedy or corrupt is beyond my level of training, but I can say that "doing nothing" doesn't serve. The world is full of humans that will take advantage of, and be dishonest to other humans. Often beginning at the top.

In our small company, when we see one that is dishonest or unethical, we remove them from the sanctuary or our organization. When you see it, you can try to change it.

I keep hearing complaints of "BIG" corporations, "BIG" this and "BIG" that. At least in America, we can try to make a difference. Maybe small is better?

Get involved. Learn about who's in power. Vote very carefully. If we cannot extend the effort, how can we expect other to?

sal
 
Hi AxtalanO,

I think it's a shame that you feel that way. It's not good for the soul.

While I cannot speak for other knife companies, in defense, I would like to say that we are a small family owned corporation that takes pride and gains our satisfaction in our ethical and moral standards, both in our products and practices. We are certainly not perfect, but we always extend our best effort to conduct business in an honest, fair and proper manner.

With regards to the "evil" that you and other see, I have always felt that if you want a "better" world, you need to begin by being a "better" person. Then the world will be better by at least a factor of one. You teach your family and friends by example.

Not "permitting" or "allowing" others to be be greedy or corrupt is beyond my level of training, but I can say that "doing nothing" doesn't serve. The world is full of humans that will take advantage of, and be dishonest to other humans. Often beginning at the top.

In our small company, when we see one that is dishonest or unethical, we remove them from the sanctuary or our organization. When you see it, you can try to change it.

I keep hearing complaints of "BIG" corporations, "BIG" this and "BIG" that. At least in America, we can try to make a difference. Maybe small is better?

Get involved. Learn about who's in power. Vote very carefully. If we cannot extend the effort, how can we expect other to?

sal


I think a lot of the problems are those dishonest and greedy people get into key positions in the Big Corporations. All it takes is one bad apple to ruin it because they spread it around and bring in like people.

It can happen at all levels though, but then that is Corporate politics and the Bigger it is the more disconnected the CEO becomes in the day to day operations. They need others to get involved as in Middle Management and if they are Corrupt then things really get bad down to the lowest levels.

I have seen so many get into positions just because they KNOW somebody and not of Job Merit or Ethics. They want others like them so they will be in the click so to speak and they are only out for themselves.

There are so many problems that it's like a Dam with so many leaks in it you can't plug all the holes.
 
Jim,

I feel your pain. My current employer has a similar philosophy, reward the ignorant, suppress the educated. It used to tick me off daily, but after a while I just decided to go with the flow. I accepted the fact that I cannot change it, I only have control of the job I am responsible for. As long and I do my best and give 110% everyday, I will sleep well at night knowing that I earn my paycheck. Nothing is worth me getting sick over, especially not something that is clearly out of my control. I've told this story already but I'll summarize it here:

I work with a guy that gets paid not much less than I do and he does about 50% of the work I do. We have caught him drunk, passed out on the job (during his first month) and the boss was told. He was not reprimanded. Because of football season, he gets FUBAR'd every single Monday night and misses work on Tuesday - like clock work. The boss again, knows but nothing has been done. This same person refuses to clean their work area, it looks like someone dumped a trash can all over his desk. Many people have asked him to clean up, at least pitch in and help. He takes off early and disregards the repeated requests. The icing on the cake is that he on occassion will take credit for work he has not done. I've caught him sucking up to the boss saying how he found all these problems and how easily he straightened them out. Aside from all this, I am readily available on weekends and holidays (I was called in this Christmas to fix an issue with a server), while he lets those calls roll over to me. It's beyond frustrating for me to have to share my work environment with this person. I have thought about quitting, but being that jobs are as scarce as they are and having a family that relies on me; quitting is not an option.

In other departments I've seen the same thing. Unscheduled breaks, no call - no shows, tool theft, complete lack of work ethics all the way around. Yet these people remain on the payroll by some mysterious reason. We've joked around and said, "They must have naked pictures of someone important if they are still here". I just want to go to work, do my job, and continue to learn and grow my skills and learn new skills along the way. I have no problem teaching someone what I already knnow how to do and learning from others is enjoyable for me.

In the knife world, I have some favorite companies like many. I tend to buy from those that have the best products to offer that interest me at that particular moment. It's no secret that I am a Spyderco/ZT holic, I love the Military and have carried it more often than any other knives I own. In my opinion, a company that has been providing cutting edge (forgive the pun) materials and designs for 30 years is doing something right. In the fixed blade world, ESEE has one of the best warrantys in the business. I've not broken an ESEE knife yet of the 3 that I own, so I have not needed to utilize their warranty service. What makes me feel even more warm & fuzzy inside is that these 3 companies that I've mentioend represent themselves here. They provide answers to our questions and they share our love for sharp things. The value that these companies offer is terrific, most people can see this. In most cases real ethics and value are synonymous.
 
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You can try to plug the leaks or give up? What other options do you have?

sal

Yeah I tried to fix them and was fired from more than one job because I stepped on someones toes.

The problem, usually a person was protected by someone up higher so in the end I was the one who got the axe.

It's pretty bad when you are in management and your hands are tied.
 
Jim,

I feel your pain. My current employer has a similar philosophy, reward the ignorant, suppress the educated. It used to tick me off daily, but after a while I just decided to go with the flow. I accepted the fact that I cannot change it, I only have control of the job I am responsible for. As long and I do my best and give 110% everyday, I will sleep well at night knowing that I earn my paycheck. Nothing is worth me getting sick over, especially not something that is clearly out of my control. I've told this story already but I'll summarize it here:

I work with a guy that gets paid not much less than I do and he does about 50% of the work I do. We have caught him drunk, passed out on the job (during his first month) and the boss was told. He was not reprimanded. Because of football season, he gets FUBAR'd every single Monday night and misses work on Tuesday - like clock work. The boss again, knows but nothing has been done. This same person refuses to clean their work area, it looks like someone dumped a trash can all over his desk. Many people have asked him to clean up, at least pitch in and help. He takes off early and disregards the repeated requests. The icing on the cake is that he on occassion will take credit for work he has not done. I've caught him sucking up to the boss saying how he found all these problems and how easily he straightened them out. Aside from all this, I am readily available on weekends and holidays (I was called in this Christmas to fix an issue with a server), while he lets those calls roll over to me. It's beyond frustrating for me to have to share my work environment with this person. I have thought about quitting, but being that jobs are as scarce as they are and having a family that relies on me; quitting is not an option.

In other departments I've seen the same thing. Unscheduled breaks, no call - no shows, tool theft, complete lack of work ethics all the way around. Yet these people remain on the payroll by some mysterious reason. We've joked around and said, "They must have naked pictures of someone important if they are still here". I just want to go to work, do my job, and continue to learn and grow my skills and learn new skills along the way. I have no problem teaching someone what I already knnow how to do and learning from others is enjoyable for me.

In the knife world, I have some favorite companies like many. I tend to buy from those that have the best products to offer that interest me at that particular moment. It's no secret that I am a Spyderco/ZT holic, I love the Military and have carried it more often than any other knives I own. In my opinion, a company that has been providing cutting edge (forgive the pun) materials and designs for 30 years is doing something right. In the fixed blade world, ESEE has one of the best warrantys in the business. I've not broken an ESEE knife yet of the 3 that I own, so I have not needed to utilize their warranty service. What makes me feel even more warm & fuzzy inside is that these 3 companies that I've mentioend represent themselves here. They provide answers to our questions and they share our love for sharp things. The value that these companies offer is terrific, most people can see this. In most cases real ethics and value are synonymous.

Oh yeah been there, done that more than a few times.

I tried to get rid of people like that so many times only to hit a brick wall and to find out they knew somebody and was fired myself in the end.
 
Hi AxtalanO,

I think it's a shame that you feel that way. It's not good for the soul.

While I cannot speak for other knife companies, in defense, I would like to say that we are a small family owned corporation that takes pride and gains our satisfaction in our ethical and moral standards, both in our products and practices. We are certainly not perfect, but we always extend our best effort to conduct business in an honest, fair and proper manner.

With regards to the "evil" that you and other see, I have always felt that if you want a "better" world, you need to begin by being a "better" person. Then the world will be better by at least a factor of one. You teach your family and friends by example.

Not "permitting" or "allowing" others to be be greedy or corrupt is beyond my level of training, but I can say that "doing nothing" doesn't serve. The world is full of humans that will take advantage of, and be dishonest to other humans. Often beginning at the top.

In our small company, when we see one that is dishonest or unethical, we remove them from the sanctuary or our organization. When you see it, you can try to change it.

I keep hearing complaints of "BIG" corporations, "BIG" this and "BIG" that. At least in America, we can try to make a difference. Maybe small is better?

Get involved. Learn about who's in power. Vote very carefully. If we cannot extend the effort, how can we expect other to?

sal

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
When it comes to political issues (government, big business, ethics etc...), one thing that we really need to remember is that everything is supported by the masses, you and me. If people didn't want something to run the way it does, they would change it.
If you live in a democratic society, all you have to do is get enough people to rally behind a cause and whatever goal you aim for will be reached. Government, business, social, it doesn't matter what the issue or cause is, solving wide spread problems is only a matter of common will.
 
When it comes to political issues (government, big business, ethics etc...), one thing that we really need to remember is that everything is supported by the masses, you and me. If people didn't want something to run the way it does, they would change it.
If you live in a democratic society, all you have to do is get enough people to rally behind a cause and whatever goal you aim for will be reached. Government, business, social, it doesn't matter what the issue or cause is, solving wide spread problems is only a matter of common will.

It's not really that simple here in the US with the Media the way it is. Without the Media (TV) you get no place these days and that's not cheap and they say whatever the ones who pays them the most wants them to say.

It's very easy to control the masses in the US, all it takes is lots of money and you can steer them in any direction you want with the right backing.

Last time I checked the ones with the most money are the major problem so here we are.

It would take a lot, like something major to get peoples attention and get them behind something to get it going in the right direction again.
 
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In response to Sal and Jeff,
It has been my experience that "small family owned corporations" are usually not as bad in violating moral, ethical, and legal standards as most any of the big multi-nationals. My theory is this is because the smaller, privately held companies are much more tightly controlled by the founder/owner. So if the founder/owner is a decent person, he will run his company accordingly. I don't know either of you, but on these forums, for what that's worth, you both come across as decent, honorable, thinking people.

But somehow the dehumanizing factor of larger corporations seems to attract and/or bring out the worst, basest of people. Dr. Montague Ullman, a well respected psychiatrist advanced his theory of what he called the "corporate psychopath" when he noticed that dangerous criminals share many of the exact same clinical profile characteristics as many successful CEOs and business leaders:
1.failure to conform to social norms with regard to lawful behavior as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying, and conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. irritability and aggressiveness
4. reckless disregard for safety of self or others
5. lack of remorse as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated or stolen from another

Dr. Ullman makes a pretty good case that had these business leaders not been sheltered by a privileged lifestyle growing up, instead of "just" committing corporate crimes, they would be hardcore gangbangers.

It bothers and saddens me that we allow people like that free reign, since so many of their decisions have very real, harmful consequences to large segments of society, in our country and abroad.

I agree with all who said that we allow this because we are indifferent and woefully uninformed. If I could change just one thing about my country, it would probably be people's cluelessness about how many different ways they are getting legally raped as a direct result of the ever growing melding together of big business and big government. Instead of screaming against it, many cheer it on!
 
I base my purchases on two things quality of the knife and the quality of the person or company making the knife.

I do not support companies or individuals who do not put out a quality and who do not ooze quality in their business practices. My thought is that there are too many companies and makers that meet those criteria to choose from, so why patronize anyone who does not.

It is not a matter of politics to me, just a matter of ethics and quality.
 
We have to hire attorneys from time to time because of trademark issues, patents we are working on, etc. My point is, the REASON we have to hire attorneys is because of unethical businesses that will try to hurt us if we don't. The big guy with more $$ will simply outspend you until you give in and quit or can no longer afford to fight the issue.
Yes, that is the problem. Money talks in the courtroom and in Congress/Senate.

My econ prof told us a story about how he started a little eatery with his dad that they ran successfully for years. Well, one day, they got a notice to change the place's name, because a new chain restaurant in town was using their name. They went to court to fight it, and still lost! Never mind that they had been using the name for years before the other place even existed, or that they had properly trademarked it. The chain had the big money to hire the most expensive and aggressive attorneys, and that was the end of that.

And let's not forget how Monsanto can successfully sue farmers when Monsanto's mutant crops accidentally cross-pollinate with a neighboring farmer's field, without the farmer even knowing it happened!

Many economists say that what we now have is not capitalism. In capitalism there is healthy competition in free markets. Our markets are far from free, they are being strangulated by billion-dollar firms who want to eliminate any and all competition.

And lets not forget that just 80 or so years ago, working conditions for American workers were as bad as, or worse than any Chinese sweat shop of today. The ONLY reason big business improved conditions is because they were legally forced to do so. If they could get away with it, most companies would happily use slave-labor, if it were still available. (And most companies go and find countries where it still exists in some form, and open up shop there.) So when anyone complains about regulating business, my first response is, history has proven again and again and again, that is the only way most major corporations will ever do the right thing. If they are FORCED to.

Whew... let's get back to talking about cool knives :foot:
 
In response to Sal and Jeff,
It has been my experience that "small family owned corporations" are usually not as bad in violating moral, ethical, and legal standards as most any of the big multi-nationals. My theory is this is because the smaller, privately held companies are much more tightly controlled by the founder/owner. So if the founder/owner is a decent person, he will run his company accordingly. I don't know either of you, but on these forums, for what that's worth, you both come across as decent, honorable, thinking people.

But somehow the dehumanizing factor of larger corporations seems to attract and/or bring out the worst, basest of people. Dr. Montague Ullman, a well respected psychiatrist advanced his theory of what he called the "corporate psychopath" when he noticed that dangerous criminals share many of the exact same clinical profile characteristics as many successful CEOs and business leaders:
1.failure to conform to social norms with regard to lawful behavior as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying, and conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. irritability and aggressiveness
4. reckless disregard for safety of self or others
5. lack of remorse as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated or stolen from another

Dr. Ullman makes a pretty good case that had these business leaders not been sheltered by a privileged lifestyle growing up, instead of "just" committing corporate crimes, they would be hardcore gangbangers.

It bothers and saddens me that we allow people like that free reign, since so many of their decisions have very real, harmful consequences to large segments of society, in our country and abroad.

I agree with all who said that we allow this because we are indifferent and woefully uninformed. If I could change just one thing about my country, it would probably be people's cluelessness about how many different ways they are getting legally raped as a direct result of the ever growing melding together of big business and big government. Instead of screaming against it, many cheer it on!



I remember reading that before and he is so right on the money it's scary.
 
Yes, that is the problem. Money talks in the courtroom and in Congress/Senate.

My econ prof told us a story about how he started a little eatery with his dad that they ran successfully for years. Well, one day, they got a notice to change the place's name, because a new chain restaurant in town was using their name. They went to court to fight it, and still lost! Never mind that they had been using the name for years before the other place even existed, or that they had properly trademarked it. The chain had the big money to hire the most expensive and aggressive attorneys, and that was the end of that.

And let's not forget how Monsanto can successfully sue farmers when Monsanto's mutant crops accidentally cross-pollinate with a neighboring farmer's field, without the farmer even knowing it happened!

Many economists say that what we now have is not capitalism. In capitalism there is healthy competition in free markets. Our markets are far from free, they are being strangulated by billion-dollar firms who want to eliminate any and all competition.

And lets not forget that just 80 or so years ago, working conditions for American workers were as bad as, or worse than any Chinese sweat shop of today. The ONLY reason big business improved conditions is because they were legally forced to do so. If they could get away with it, most companies would happily use slave-labor, if it were still available. (And most companies go and find countries where it still exists in some form, and open up shop there.) So when anyone complains about regulating business, my first response is, history has proven again and again and again, that is the only way most major corporations will ever do the right thing. If they are FORCED to.

Whew... let's get back to talking about cool knives :foot:

We are heading back to those working conditions faster than many would like to think. ;)

I used to use the phrase my people are Humans not machines almost daily......
 
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