Etiquette For contacting a maker about an ordered knife?

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CujiWuji said:
They swapped to a waitlist for orders shortly after I placed mine. But there have been new knives listed for sale on the site after the fact if that matters.
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Sure it does. I use small contractors and companies of craftsmen all the time, and that is how I started my construction company. I did custom wood work, built custom cabinets and furniture, and even today if it is one of my remodel projects, I still build a cabinet here and there. The point is, you need to think about your situation as you are telling a shop worn tale that is as old as small business.

Your money is gone. Spent. He probably doesn't have any money to pay his own bills at this point, much less take care of his contractual obligations. You are seeing new knives posted in an attempt to generate some income to pay household obligations, and probably money to get materials to pay for those clients not nearly as patient as you.

If I have heard it once, I have heard it (maybe literally) a thousand times in the last 40+ years of business. "My wife and me are having a rough patch; we had some unexpected expenses and should be on track soon; my wife/kids/mom/dad is sick/injured/dying (sometimes family members die several times if I know them long enough); my wife spent the money; could I borrow some money?; no one wants to work; my material shipment got screwed up; I made your project but it wasn't 100% and you know my standards, I had to start over; it was too hot/cold to work... add another couple of thousand excuses and you will get the picture.

Good craftsmen are notoriously poor businessmen. I have mentored several over the years and only on remains in business. And if they adopt the tone of a successful, eccentric artist and announce that "the project will be finished when it is finished", they are doomed. The hardest thing for small business men/women to learn is how to be a good business person. Unfortunately, their learning curve comes not only at expense to themselves, but at a great cost to their clientele. Money disappears, promises are broken, people go into hiding, threats are made, and at the end of the small business a lot of money is owed, trusting people have been screwed. Oh blah de, blah da. SSDD.

So treat this guy like the professional businessman he represented himself to be when he gladly took your money. Get your money back however you can. Credit card resolution period expired? Let them know the knife was NEVER delivered, and that this isn't a warranty issue. They might launch and investigation and bar him from using that host card (VISA/Mastercard) until they are finished. If others have filed complaints, they may suspend him completely. VISA/Mastercard won't do anything? Contact his state's Attorney General and file paperwork showing he is running a Ponzi scheme. Make sure you CC the city attorney and him as well. Some small claims courts are now doing ZOOM meetings, so you don't have to leave the house to go to court. You have a lot of avenues to follow.

And while you are thinking "man, that sounds like a lot of work", you might find that the maker will be a lot more amenable to a solution if he finds you have had enough. He might just take the money he is making from his current production offerings and pay you back instead of himself. Plus, you might be the guy that saves a lot of other trusting folks from pissing away their money down his rat hole.

As always... just my 0.02. Ok, maybe 0.05...
 
midnight flyer said:
Sure it does. I use small contractors and companies of craftsmen all the time, and that is how I started my construction company. I did custom wood work, built custom cabinets and furniture, and even today if it is one of my remodel projects, I still build a cabinet here and there. The point is, you need to think about your situation as you are telling a shop worn tale that is as old as small business.

Your money is gone. Spent. He probably doesn't have any money to pay his own bills at this point, much less take care of his contractual obligations. You are seeing new knives posted in an attempt to generate some income to pay household obligations, and probably money to get materials to pay for those clients not nearly as patient as you.

If I have heard it once, I have heard it (maybe literally) a thousand times in the last 40+ years of business. "My wife and me are having a rough patch; we had some unexpected expenses and should be on track soon; my wife/kids/mom/dad is sick/injured/dying (sometimes family members die several times if I know them long enough); my wife spent the money; could I borrow some money?; no one wants to work; my material shipment got screwed up; I made your project but it wasn't 100% and you know my standards, I had to start over; it was too hot/cold to work... add another couple of thousand excuses and you will get the picture.

Good craftsmen are notoriously poor businessmen. I have mentored several over the years and only on remains in business. And if they adopt the tone of a successful, eccentric artist and announce that "the project will be finished when it is finished", they are doomed. The hardest thing for small business men/women to learn is how to be a good business person. Unfortunately, their learning curve comes not only at expense to themselves, but at a great cost to their clientele. Money disappears, promises are broken, people go into hiding, threats are made, and at the end of the small business a lot of money is owed, trusting people have been screwed. Oh blah de, blah da. SSDD.

So treat this guy like the professional businessman he represented himself to be when he gladly took your money. Get your money back however you can. Credit card resolution period expired? Let them know the knife was NEVER delivered, and that this isn't a warranty issue. They might launch and investigation and bar him from using that host card (VISA/Mastercard) until they are finished. If others have filed complaints, they may suspend him completely. VISA/Mastercard won't do anything? Contact his state's Attorney General and file paperwork showing he is running a Ponzi scheme. Make sure you CC the city attorney and him as well. Some small claims courts are now doing ZOOM meetings, so you don't have to leave the house to go to court. You have a lot of avenues to follow.

And while you are thinking "man, that sounds like a lot of work", you might find that the maker will be a lot more amenable to a solution if he finds you have had enough. He might just take the money he is making from his current production offerings and pay you back instead of himself. Plus, you might be the guy that saves a lot of other trusting folks from pissing away their money down his rat hole.

As always... just my 0.02. Ok, maybe 0.05...
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You forgot to mention the truck has to go in for repairs again.
 
I think the prudent thing to do is get a refund and move on. I could be wrong but I suspect that getting a refund will be a problem.

Makers who go down this road tend to get addicted to the easy money. Take an order, get cash, and then when you need more cash make a knife for immediate sale funded by the pre-order knives.
Basically you are financing his business and life. There is zero motivation for him to make you the knife.

I would immediately demand a refund and move on to another reputable maker. There are many great knife makers who would love your business.
 
Danke42 said:
You forgot to mention the truck has to go in for repairs again.
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LOLOL!!! No kidding! I should add, it's the transmission; they are waiting on parts and I can't get materials until it is fixed; they kids wrecked the car again; and this is the wife's fault since she ran the damn vehicle for 3 months after the oil light came on.

D Danke42 , still laughing over here. The old vehicle excuse is a classic, can't believe I missed it.
 
It's really tough to know what to do. When I first came to the forum, I ordered a 10V custom knife from a well-known knife maker. It never came, just excuse after excuse.

When someone misses a deadline, they should be in steady contact with you to tell you what's going on. Just deal with someone else. Get your money back if you can. Lots of awesome knives out there.
 
Anyone asking for money up front is a risk for the above stated reasons.
You don't have to pay upfront to get a custom knife from a reputable maker.
No maker who has ever handmade a knife for me has ever asked for money until he has finished making the knife, and when it's done, I pay him the same day.
And I have always gotten the knife I ordered. knock, knock.

I think that the willingness to do the work before getting paid is an great indicator of integrity of the individual craftsman. I value that.
The other way, you're living on money you haven't earned yet. Easy to get into a hole you can't get out of. my 2cents
 
gooeytek said:
The hardest knife to make is one that's already been paid for.
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........this every time !!!! When I was younger :D I too paid up front as he was just starting up.....he had made me another and I was very happy with it. The next I paid for was actually for a good friend. I ended up refunding my friend and ate the loss.

That this guy has other knives made and up for sale ahead of yours already tell you how much priority he is giving your work. Get your $s back now, accept no more excuses as they will just keep coming. You want may try and override your common sense but anything done now will be half arsed just to get you off his back.
 
While it is certainly easy for makers to fall behind, this type of problem too often ends badly for me to advise patience. If possible I would get a refund and move on, but unless you can make a PP or credit card claim you may find getting the refund no easier than getting the knife. As a general rule, don't prepay.
 
How many times does this have to happen to people before people stop paying up front? Not blaming the OP or anything but there have been decades worth of posts in GBU about this exact topic. It's a beaten-to-death topic. It's crazy people still fall for this BS.
 
Speaking from a purely business standpoint, you must have what is considered legally an "exchange of consideration" for services to be rendered or goods to be sold in order to have a legal, binding contract. It is essential that both parties understand that "exchange of consideration" that dots the last "i" and crosses the last "t" of the contract to make stick.

As a contractor, I wind up talking with people that have had others ask them for as much as 50% down before they start work. I gladly tell them, "hell, I wouldn't pay ME 50% down before starting!". Something modest and reasonable like 10% make sense and makes the court happy. It also serves the purpose of showing sincerity and commitment on both sides of the contract which was probably the intent when the law was passed.

Of course I don't require money on repeat customers, but think how few here contract with the same knife maker for many, many knives to build that kind of relationship.

I understand it is a federal law to require the exchange of consideration. But just in case, I will speak of Texas where I took my business classes. I can't imagine it being any different anywhere else since it is the principal of the thing.
 
I searched his website. it's nicely professional and he appears to make some fine knives. His shop looks well kempt.

I don't think he's a scammer, yet you are fair to call him on his word.

He is three months beyond schedule (Seven mos, plus now three). That's regrettable, but not preposterous.

Resolve? I would simply CALL HIM and put your human voice in his ear. If he makes a verbal promise now, it's generally stronger.

Email is very businesslike, AND impersonal. Easy to dismiss. Easy to send a 'family health' problem.

(The problem with THAT excuse, is it's sacrosanct. Who can contest it IF it's real. Who can VERIFY if not, is the other aspect. Non traceable.)

So, give him a call IN THE MORNING. Most people are not tired, and ready to be a better person in the AM. Human nature.

I wish you well.
 
He never contacted his client when he knew he couldn’t deliver, didn’t offer a refund and didn’t give a firm dellivery date. That make him dishonest and when dishonesty results in profit for the liar it’s a scam.
 
midnight flyer said:
Sure it does. I use small contractors and companies of craftsmen all the time, and that is how I started my construction company. I did custom wood work, built custom cabinets and furniture, and even today if it is one of my remodel projects, I still build a cabinet here and there. The point is, you need to think about your situation as you are telling a shop worn tale that is as old as small business.

Your money is gone. Spent. He probably doesn't have any money to pay his own bills at this point, much less take care of his contractual obligations. You are seeing new knives posted in an attempt to generate some income to pay household obligations, and probably money to get materials to pay for those clients not nearly as patient as you.

If I have heard it once, I have heard it (maybe literally) a thousand times in the last 40+ years of business. "My wife and me are having a rough patch; we had some unexpected expenses and should be on track soon; my wife/kids/mom/dad is sick/injured/dying (sometimes family members die several times if I know them long enough); my wife spent the money; could I borrow some money?; no one wants to work; my material shipment got screwed up; I made your project but it wasn't 100% and you know my standards, I had to start over; it was too hot/cold to work... add another couple of thousand excuses and you will get the picture.

Good craftsmen are notoriously poor businessmen. I have mentored several over the years and only on remains in business. And if they adopt the tone of a successful, eccentric artist and announce that "the project will be finished when it is finished", they are doomed. The hardest thing for small business men/women to learn is how to be a good business person. Unfortunately, their learning curve comes not only at expense to themselves, but at a great cost to their clientele. Money disappears, promises are broken, people go into hiding, threats are made, and at the end of the small business a lot of money is owed, trusting people have been screwed. Oh blah de, blah da. SSDD.

So treat this guy like the professional businessman he represented himself to be when he gladly took your money. Get your money back however you can. Credit card resolution period expired? Let them know the knife was NEVER delivered, and that this isn't a warranty issue. They might launch and investigation and bar him from using that host card (VISA/Mastercard) until they are finished. If others have filed complaints, they may suspend him completely. VISA/Mastercard won't do anything? Contact his state's Attorney General and file paperwork showing he is running a Ponzi scheme. Make sure you CC the city attorney and him as well. Some small claims courts are now doing ZOOM meetings, so you don't have to leave the house to go to court. You have a lot of avenues to follow.

And while you are thinking "man, that sounds like a lot of work", you might find that the maker will be a lot more amenable to a solution if he finds you have had enough. He might just take the money he is making from his current production offerings and pay you back instead of himself. Plus, you might be the guy that saves a lot of other trusting folks from pissing away their money down his rat hole.

As always... just my 0.02. Ok, maybe 0.05...
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This is an absolutely amazing post! I could not agree more with EVERY SINGLE THING M midnight flyer said.
 
Thank you for the bashing gentleman........ it is astonishing how people have no problem criticizing another with only the smallest amount of information given. I have found it wise after 32 years in business to walk in the other person shoes for awhile before doing so.

I have kept in contact with this customer responding to his emails, all except for this last one on Tuesday which I was in the process of doing when I received a heads up about this issue this morning. Yes I have run over on the time frame and have explained the issues as to why and have apologized for it each time.

Evidently few people here have ever dealt with continuing illness in their families and how difficult it is to recover from lost time while doing it.... Especially as a one person business owner. Paying the bills is priority number one and I make no apologies for that....anyone that argues with this is probably still living with their parents.

I have gone to a wait list and do not take money up front unless the customer prefers the option, which I discourage, of ordering on my site that is now 18 months estimated. This is the reason I do not take money up front.


This customers order has been refunded.

Scott Hawley
Furnace Brook Iron Works
 
It is not unusual for a custom maker to fall behind. Every problem puts them a little further behind. The reason for our distrust is that it is also not unusual for those taking payment up front to spend the money before the build. This starts a domino effect that often ends badly for the buyer and ultimately for the maker also. There are those that keep the money seperate and intact until the build and this works ok, but just because someone can make a knife does'nt mean they can run a business.
Taking advance payment greatly increases the responsibility of the maker to the buyer. I suggest against it prior to the start of the build.
 
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Steven65 said:
Makers who go down this road tend to get addicted to the easy money.
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You're totally right here, just the way you phrase it sounds funny to me, like the way folks talk about drug dealers.

"Why did I become a knife maker? Pshh... same reason these addicts are buying off of me. I'm addicted. Not to the knives, though, to the fast money, the lifestyle, the cars, the women..."
 
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